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  1. #251

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    Well, sure (sorry Blakey) - actually Blakey is every non drummers favourite drummer, you know what I mean haha.
    [/QUOTE] I'm not in on this, can you expand?
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  3. #252

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor View Post
    There are many slowing down and rushing recordings among the greatest. This proves for me, that atomic internal clock nonsense is a deadend. What matter is the time "feel". It is not a coincidence we call it a feeling, which exact opposite of math. Within the rushing or slowing recording, a player with great time feel can make your leg or body move to feel the current tempo. Of course if the rushing or slowing down in the tune is above a value, that can be disappointing.

    ***

    You can not have an internal atomic clock, then execute intentionally behind or above. I mean one can, but the result will not groove. The concept sounds me too scientific and in the best it produces interesting, but artificial feel. If one have a solid feel of groove (=good time feel), then he can execute according that his internal groove/swing
    Well, there's a theory, partially backed up by evidence that the microrhythmic lateness in jazz swing is specific to the swing ratio. In fact it turns out the upbeats are agreed throughout the ensemble, and if the 8ths are quite straight, you play more behind. That's very specific, and result still grooves. The placement of the beat also varies as the line approaches resolution, the swing ratio gets more pronounced and the playing is more on the beat.

    But the people researching this are bored particle physicists in a spare lunch hour, so evidence is quite thin ATM. It seems to be the way Freddie Hubbard phrases, at least.

    About 6 months ago I was all about this theory, because, hey, it works. But now I'm listening to Trane and Wayne and so on again, it's like wha...?

    Kreisberg said 'people think this music floats, but it's all locked in.' I wonder if that's true?

  4. #253

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    I'm not in on this, can you expand?[/QUOTE]

    He grooves like an MF, but technically he's really messy, drops beats sometimes in solos, and so on. Still one of my favourites. Screw the metronome!

  5. #254

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    I'm not in on this, can you expand?[/QUOTE]

    Blakey's in your face. He leads any band he was in...so non-drummers notice him.

    I am a non-drummer, and I do love Art Blakey. But there's a lot to drums that's not on the surface, and might slip by non-drummers. Hell, I've had drummers explain it to me like I was a 5 year old and I still don't hear it. And they got their own names for shit, too, so half the time a non-drummer doesn't even know what they're talking about.

    Who else does that?
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  6. #255

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    If you want to hear a classic jazz track that slows down, listen to the beginning and the end of this. I didn’t notice this for years!


  7. #256

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    If you want to hear a classic jazz track that slows down, listen to the beginning and the end of this. I didn’t notice this for years!

    Never noticed it, but if you listen to the beginning and then skip right to the end, it's pretty obvious...

    Now to wonder...just naturally slowed down...or is there a splice somewhere I never noticed...time to listen closer.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  8. #257

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Never noticed it, but if you listen to the beginning and then skip right to the end, it's pretty obvious...

    Now to wonder...just naturally slowed down...or is there a splice somewhere I never noticed...time to listen closer.
    Iirc several cuts on Kind of Blue get faster.

    Think how much better that music would have been if they cut it with a click track /s/

  9. #258

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    Idle moments slows down at almost twice as slow as at the beginning... probably becasue of its particular idleness, they are gradually falling asleep dusrin 15 min of performance...

    But seriously... this kind of discussion we have became possible only with records ... and the exaples we discuss come from musicians who still thought in terms of live performance... I mean they considered record just as a possibility to preserve live performance and played still more or less the same way as if they would have played live concert (more or less of course... they were already a bit influenced by recordeing process metality).
    It is possible even now... but many modern players are affected with recording engeneering metality .... they play in a live gig and think in terms of 'how it will sound if it will be recorded'.... it is not necessarily concious.
    But I think this is very important shift in performance psychology... and this could affect aspects we discuss here: like technical perfectionism, precise and abstract conventional timing etc.

    and it concerns audience too by the way.
    Last edited by Jonah; 09-27-2019 at 03:58 AM.

  10. #259

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor View Post
    Now we are completely hijacked, but regarding this thread this not necessary a bad thing :-)
    I really loved Benson's (actually knew it, and listened multiple times a years ago on Spotify)

    If anybody mentions Kreisberg's mechanical patterns are annoying I must agree. I simply do not understand why is he keep doing this... But this is only the part of the story I think.
    When I wrote he is great in ballads, I was thinking about something like this below.

    Just take the song interpretation, the rhythm freedom and the many nuances of every note's volume is really just soulful. (imho) The interpretation is faithful, still many points new and creative. Builds on Ed Bickert, but goes further both rhythmically both harmony wise.
    Regarding the solo, well some points there are the patterns, so focus on the remaining 50%. (I know it may ruins the thing for someone, still try to accept a listen the remaining parts) On the remaining 50% you hear many surprises, melody, and also goes even further in independent harmony and melody playing.
    In some point seeing his hand just not understand, how could this sound like pianist two independent's hand.

    Hey... this track was the first that attracted my attention to JK... but (again this 'but') a bit later - and now when I relistened today - I hear all the same thing I discussed before...
    When he plays the head listen how precise are all the small motives (daaaa dan - dada - da), I do not compare myself with him but I think I just cannot play like that physically it is some kind of specific breath and time I do not have in my nature.

    Then when he solos - I have quite a good ear today, I mean I can more or less follow even fast lines... and he sounds like combination of 'licks' (which is not bad but still I hear them namely as 'licks' as some kind of fixed motivic figures) and fast pattern-like runs based on some modal conception (I do not know how he does it exactly - I just analyze what I hear)... As a result I do not hear it as something integral and I do not hear much conviction in it really...
    yes it is very pleasurable sound... but his choices do not sound like something inevitable here in the music. He could play something else and it would not have changed the music much...

    Overall it begins to remind me 'ambient music' where general atmosphere is more important than details...

    I may be wrong and maybe I just miss something other guys hear... it can be a different language I do not understand... and I am ok with that.

    Great technique of course... these chords with melody line with different articulations (but also it sounds too much elaborated to my ear((((
    Last edited by Jonah; 09-27-2019 at 04:24 AM.

  11. #260

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    Kenny G? After all Mr Pat has said about this hero to some and douchebag to others?? OUCH! Ha.
    You can't analyze something you can't play! (Robert Conti)

    Technique is the means to play just like your voice is your means to speak. (Robert Conti)

  12. #261

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    I found this interview with Pat on Alana Alda's podcast interesting. He really seems to try to make a connection to the other person's experience.

    Pat Metheny: Discovering Spontaneity in Music and Everything Else | Alda Communication Training - Relating is Everything™