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  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmpmcdermott View Post
    Just dropping in to to voice my own controversial opinion...

    This is my favorite Metheny recording.

    *ducks*

    I don't have A PM favorite, but that is definitely one of a bunch that are. For those that don't know, Brooklyn Academy of Music commissioned Reich to write this for Metheny.

    ------------------------------

    A cover I like (hey it's not even two minutes, give it a listen!):


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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by zdub View Post
    I don't have A PM favorite, but that is definitely one of a bunch that are. For those that don't know, Brooklyn Academy of Music commissioned Reich to write this for Metheny.

    ------------------------------

    A cover I like (hey it's not even two minutes, give it a listen!):

    I love BSL, too. But as someone who works more in the experimental/"downtown" style, I was so stoked to see Metheny had collaborated with Reich. I'm really hit or miss with Metheny, and I know he comes off as arrogant, but he totally gave himself over to Reich on this one.
    On the Turntable: Steve Reich - Phases (box set), Fred Frith Guitar Quartet - Ayaya Moses
    Guitar:
    Fender AVRI '59 w/ TI Swing 11s and Tyson Tone pickups
    Through: Polytone Mini Brute II

  4. #153

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    The phrase ‘zero tolerance for silence’ comes to mind, I don’t know why...

  5. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick View Post
    He always seems to be enjoying himself.
    ... and play with fire. Metheny's music introduced me into Jazz and I'll be always grateful for that. As a musician, a composer and musical conceptionist he's so versatile that it is virtually impossible to like all his projects and records. I admire that.

    And as a guitar player? Just wow!

  6. #155

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    Why not? Music isn’t a secret thing. Most people WANT people to know. It’s called promotion.

    I too like people with big egos, unless they’re unhealthy big egos. Those guys who want to squash others as opposed to those who just believe in themselves.


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  7. #156

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    Thing is, he could come out and play like Benson and I wouldn't care. When you're sole reason for playing is to crush everyone around you, then you aren't really making music anymore, are you?
    On the Turntable: Steve Reich - Phases (box set), Fred Frith Guitar Quartet - Ayaya Moses
    Guitar:
    Fender AVRI '59 w/ TI Swing 11s and Tyson Tone pickups
    Through: Polytone Mini Brute II

  8. #157

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    In all honesty, I’m trying to think of any player or composer I’ve admired who would speak about others or themselves without either kindness, humility or just silence, if they had different tastes. Keith Jarrett comes to mind for objectionable behavior, but I don’t know that he has actually tooted his own horn in public.

    Miles had an ego with the chops and skill to justify it, probably voiced a few sharp jabs here and there... wouldn’t stop me from listening to him, though. And, there are certainly players who have earned the right through hard work to be less patient with those who don’t apply themselves... some recent videos of Mike Moreno come to mind, similar to Metheny.

    But then you have the graciousness of a Jim Hall, Wes, Benson, Martino, Scofield, Stern (incredibly gracious to a fault!) Hancock, Jacob Collier... seems to me like the greater the talent, the more sincere they are in wanting to share and propagate the mysteries they are uncovering.

    Can anyone think of a few generally agreed upon great artists who inspired you, while coming from a place of extreme self importance? I can only think of those above, off the top of my head.
    It all works out in the end; if it's not working out, it's not the end.

  9. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmpmcdermott View Post
    Thing is, he could come out and play like Benson and I wouldn't care. When you're sole reason for playing is to crush everyone around you, then you aren't really making music anymore, are you?
    Many people talk about, that an artists goal, is to communicate with people through a particular medium. What’s the artistic message being communicated here. It seems more appropriate for a sports fixture, let’s step into the ring and go a few rounds. I’m sure no one would really want to hire someone like that either. So along with a bad attitude and obnoxious personality, you also become unemployable!

  10. #159

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    Well it appears all the contentious posts have now been removed anyway.

  11. #160

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    Wait. I had a completely non contentious post about a bassist I played with who played fantastic guitar. Why was that deleted?


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  12. #161

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    I’m sorry but I thought that was a great and humbling post. Nothing argumentative about it. As a matter of fact I started by saying I’m not talking about THAT but out of every mid to larger sized town or city there are better guitar players than me. And some of them aren’t guitar players. You know that one? This was an independent post.

    Did it cause a ruckus? Why was it deleted?? Who is the admin now?


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  13. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmpmcdermott View Post
    Thing is, he could come out and play like Benson and I wouldn't care. When you're sole reason for playing is to crush everyone around you, then you aren't really making music anymore, are you?
    For some people it seems like playing ‘musician top trumps’ is a thing. Myself, I tend to like musicians that produce music I enjoy listening to. They have varying levels of musical craft.

  14. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
    Wait. I had a completely non contentious post about a bassist I played with who played fantastic guitar. Why was that deleted?


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    I remember that one! It was a good one, really non contentious and on point.

    I guess it just vanished in the purge, like a collateral damage?

  15. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by yebdox View Post
    In all honesty, I’m trying to think of any player or composer I’ve admired who would speak about others or themselves without either kindness, humility or just silence, if they had different tastes. Keith Jarrett comes to mind for objectionable behavior, but I don’t know that he has actually tooted his own horn in public.

    Miles had an ego with the chops and skill to justify it, probably voiced a few sharp jabs here and there... wouldn’t stop me from listening to him, though. And, there are certainly players who have earned the right through hard work to be less patient with those who don’t apply themselves... some recent videos of Mike Moreno come to mind, similar to Metheny.

    But then you have the graciousness of a Jim Hall, Wes, Benson, Martino, Scofield, Stern (incredibly gracious to a fault!) Hancock, Jacob Collier... seems to me like the greater the talent, the more sincere they are in wanting to share and propagate the mysteries they are uncovering.

    Can anyone think of a few generally agreed upon great artists who inspired you, while coming from a place of extreme self importance? I can only think of those above, off the top of my head.
    Hi, Ye,
    What's the problem with people thinking differently about things? This isn't the Cultural Revolution of Chairman Mao. I find it interesting to read the differing views and their rationales. Why is it wrong for something to be right for you . . . but perhaps, not for others? We have over 7 billion souls on this planet. Good playing . . . Marinero

  16. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    I remember that one! It was a good one, really non contentious and on point.

    I guess it just vanished in the purge, like a collateral damage?
    He chose the nuclear option, don’t mess with the Belgians.

  17. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero View Post
    Hi, Ye,
    What's the problem with people thinking differently about things? This isn't the Cultural Revolution of Chairman Mao. I find it interesting to read the differing views and their rationales. Why is it wrong for something to be right for you . . . but perhaps, not for others? We have over 7 billion souls on this planet. Good playing . . . Marinero
    Hey, Marinero,

    No rules whatsoever, just observations about the people I enjoy listening to and admire. Think I pointed out that there are artists who most of us wouldn’t get along with who we all agree are still worth listening to, as there are in every field.

    Great art requires some courage, and that comes with a good degree of confidence, at some point. I’m just pointing out what has been observed over and over, that most of the top players and writers, who would be in the best positions to afford a bit of swagger, are usually the most humble and willing to share. No one made them conform to any rules of politeness or convert to communism, they just figured it out on their own.

    Maybe it’s as practical as the need for professional survival for getting gigs, keeping audiences, securing students, having more fun in general, or just wanting to share something they are excited about. Maybe they bite their tongue, while really wanting to rip someone a new one. Different for everyone, I’m sure. But me personally, I really enjoy someone even more when they produce music I dig AND can find the time to be kind, encouraging, patient, gracious and even humble with their fans and younger players.

    I’ve personally experienced that kindness over the years with players like Metheny, Bernstein, Jim Hall, Rodney Jones, Robben Ford, Jack Wilkins, Buzz Feiten, Tuck Andress, John Stowell, Mike Stern, Pierre Bensusan and non guitarists like McCoy Tyner, Dizzy Gillespie, Dexter Gordon, Jay McShann, Sonny Fortune, Chick Corea, Nicky Hopkins, Stevie Wonder and a few more great artists I’ve been fortunate to meet briefly or study with. Most of them would never remember me, received nothing of value from me except for admiration or gratitude (and the occasional car ride), yet they made my day through their approachability and kindness. It’s who they are in addition to their artistry that makes me admire them more.

    OTOH, I love Keith Jarrett, but would never again risk the price of a concert ticket. His mercurial behavior puts any live listeners at risk for a frustrating evening. You can decide what level of support artists like that deserve. Still great, but takes them down a notch in my view. But I will still listen, if it’s good music. Generally a bad idea to shoot the messenger, even if they insult yo’ mama! We are all learning.
    It all works out in the end; if it's not working out, it's not the end.

  18. #167
    Pat Metheny is one of my favorite guitarists, but I definitely prefer his earlier work to the work he did from the early 90s forward. His earlier albums on ECM are all worth listening to again and again as you will find so much in the music that you didn’t quite hear before. The first album I’ve heard from him was Offramp. This, for me, remains my favorite PMG album followed by As Wichita Falls, So Falls Wichita Falls, Travels, and Rejoicing. I also thought highly of Bright Size Life, which showcased Metheny in a trio format and how he adapts and writes for it. Quite a special album. Of the Geffen recordings, I like the first two a good bit: Still Life (Talking) and Letter From Home. His solo album Secret Story is another favorite. I can’t say I’m a fan of his more experimental music like The Sign Of 4 or Song X (w/ Ornette Coleman). Anyway, I love a lot of his music and, yes, he’s an acquired taste, but this could be said about so many jazz musicians.
    "When you hear music, after it’s over, it’s gone, in the air, you can never capture it again.” - Eric Dolphy

  19. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    He chose the nuclear option, don’t mess with the Belgians.
    Ha, can you imagine if the site was Russian? You would never hear from those who left the comments again!

  20. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
    Wait. I had a completely non contentious post about a bassist I played with who played fantastic guitar. Why was that deleted?


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    We guitarists can't let stories like that get out.

  21. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    We guitarists can't let stories like that get out.
    Lol!! Ok. True. Sorry.


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  22. #171

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    I got a chance to see PM twice over the last year and once it was a solo show. I am not that familiar with his catalogue but I have a handful of his cd’s. Some of the music I find fascinating and some of it flies over my head. Seeing him play live was what made me a fan. His shows I witnessed took the audience on a sonic journey and the range of emotions he can transmit through his playing is astonishing. He puts everything he has into his performances and as an audience member I could really feel that.

    I did have the pleasure to meet him a couple of times and found him to be nothing less than a friendly pleasant person. Very far from pretentious and quite a good story teller.

  23. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    For some people it seems like playing ‘musician top trumps’ is a thing. Myself, I tend to like musicians that produce music I enjoy listening to. They have varying levels of musical craft.
    Agree 100%

    Some of my guitar heroes are people like Fred Frith, Sonny Sharrock, Derek Bailey and Joe Morris. They all play at a stunningly high level of creativity and originality. Like on another planet. Could they cut heads at a blues jam? Maybe Sonny, but that's about it.

    Originality > everything else in my book. I spent many years running scales, learning every inversion, learning standards, playing live, playing in studios. I don't regret it one bit. But I've found a creative home in free jazz and free improvisation and that requires a very different set of non-traditional priorities.

    Just my opinion, for whatever it's worth.
    On the Turntable: Steve Reich - Phases (box set), Fred Frith Guitar Quartet - Ayaya Moses
    Guitar:
    Fender AVRI '59 w/ TI Swing 11s and Tyson Tone pickups
    Through: Polytone Mini Brute II

  24. #173

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    Bailey had chops. He played in combos and dance bands, to support his more creative work. Frith seems to know what he is doing when he plays conventionally. But, that said, I agree that free music is more satisfying than accomplished but constrained playing.

  25. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick View Post
    Bailey had chops. He played in combos and dance bands, to support his more creative work. Frith seems to know what he is doing when he plays conventionally. But, that said, I agree that free music is more satisfying than accomplished but constrained playing.
    I’ve heard free fans saying Metheny’s a bit crap at it. But you can’t say he didn’t have a go:

    Pat Metheny : Question & Answer

    One thing that impressed me about Pat is the breadth of his interest and participation in music.

    I’ve played a bit of free but never been to a gig. This may well change as there is a regular session close to where I am moving to. The lack of pulse/groove in European style improv is a turn off for me, but for those who like it there are obviously other appeals. I tend to enjoy free bop/jazz more - which reminds me that Song X is a cool record.

  26. #175

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick View Post
    Bailey had chops. He played in combos and dance bands, to support his more creative work. Frith seems to know what he is doing when he plays conventionally. But, that said, I agree that free music is more satisfying than accomplished but constrained playing.
    Agreed 100%. My point was just that they have different priorities. I think to be a great free player you certainly need a solid foundation and some chops. But the cutting heads style of playing is not the point of that kind of music.
    On the Turntable: Steve Reich - Phases (box set), Fred Frith Guitar Quartet - Ayaya Moses
    Guitar:
    Fender AVRI '59 w/ TI Swing 11s and Tyson Tone pickups
    Through: Polytone Mini Brute II

  27. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I’ve heard free fans saying Metheny’s a bit crap at it. But you can’t say he didn’t have a go:

    Pat Metheny : Question & Answer

    One thing that impressed me about Pat is the breadth of his interest and participation in music.

    I’ve played a bit of free but never been to a gig. This may well change as there is a regular session close to where I am moving to. The lack of pulse/groove in European style improv is a turn off for me, but for those who like it there are obviously other appeals. I tend to enjoy free bop/jazz more - which reminds me that Song X is a cool record.
    I honestly haven't heard much of Metheny's free playing, so I have no judgement on it. Song X is fine, but it never did a ton for me. For the record, I think Metheny is a monster player, just not really someone I personally gravitate toward.
    On the Turntable: Steve Reich - Phases (box set), Fred Frith Guitar Quartet - Ayaya Moses
    Guitar:
    Fender AVRI '59 w/ TI Swing 11s and Tyson Tone pickups
    Through: Polytone Mini Brute II

  28. #177

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    I was under the impression that this was Pat’s most ‘free/out’ record:


  29. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I’ve heard free fans saying Metheny’s a bit crap at it. But you can’t say he didn’t have a go:

    Pat Metheny : Question & Answer

    One thing that impressed me about Pat is the breadth of his interest and participation in music.

    I’ve played a bit of free but never been to a gig. This may well change as there is a regular session close to where I am moving to. The lack of pulse/groove in European style improv is a turn off for me, but for those who like it there are obviously other appeals. I tend to enjoy free bop/jazz more - which reminds me that Song X is a cool record.
    I saw Metheny with both the SongX band and with Derek Bailey. I thought SongX worked pretty well (both live and the record). It had a lot of groove to it, and tunes with actual form and structure. I think of Ornette as kind of different from most other free players in that he plays with a pretty tone and the style comes off more as genuine/organic expression of who he is than as some sort of conscious experiment and effort to not sound like other people. OTOH, I found the show I saw with Bailey unbearable. It was brutally, painfully loud, completely devoid of any discernible structure, pattern or groove, and executed with the ugliest possible textures on all instruments. I guess if that was the intent (and I can understand in the abstract why it might be), it was successful, but it's not something I would ever go see on purpose again.

    John

  30. #179

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    Derek Bailey's mother said he was the second best guitarist in the family; after her brother, who taught him.

    I think many are prejudiced against Metheny because of his shirts and his relentless cheerfulness. If he wore black and looked glum, they would take him seriously.

  31. #180

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    Ornette is way different than most free players, which is interesting and somewhat significant in that he kind of created the style. Early Ornette doesn’t destroy tonality and meter. It just frees it. You have to really use your ears to play it. I played several concerts of just Ornette music. It’s not anything goes. There is a structure. You just have to make it happen. Listen to everybody. The chords aren’t written but they’re there. Lonely Woman, Peace, Una Muy Bonita. Great tunes.


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  32. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    I saw Metheny with both the SongX band and with Derek Bailey. I thought SongX worked pretty well (both live and the record). It had a lot of groove to it, and tunes with actual form and structure. I think of Ornette as kind of different from most other free players in that he plays with a pretty tone and the style comes off more as genuine/organic expression of who he is than as some sort of conscious experiment and effort to not sound like other people. OTOH, I found the show I saw with Bailey unbearable. It was brutally, painfully loud, completely devoid of any discernible structure, pattern or groove, and executed with the ugliest possible textures on all instruments. I guess if that was the intent (and I can understand in the abstract why it might be), it was successful, but it's not something I would ever go see on purpose again.

    John
    Was that the Knitting Factory show with Metheny and Bailey. I think most people regard that one as an unfortunate even for both parties involved. Bailey is a hero of mine and I have a ton of respect for Metheny. But I was never under the delusion that they'd be a good combo.
    On the Turntable: Steve Reich - Phases (box set), Fred Frith Guitar Quartet - Ayaya Moses
    Guitar:
    Fender AVRI '59 w/ TI Swing 11s and Tyson Tone pickups
    Through: Polytone Mini Brute II

  33. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
    Ornette is way different than most free players, which is interesting and somewhat significant in that he kind of created the style. Early Ornette doesn’t destroy tonality and meter. It just frees it. You have to really use your ears to play it. I played several concerts of just Ornette music. It’s not anything goes. There is a structure. You just have to make it happen. Listen to everybody. The chords aren’t written but they’re there. Lonely Woman, Peace, Una Muy Bonita. Great tunes.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    To quote Joe Morris: "Free music is not music that is free of deliberate content or structure. It is music that exists because the artists who make it are compelled to remain free to render their music in any fashion they fell is worthwhile, and they are free to set the criteria for their music."

    Ornette had harmolodics
    Cecil had unit structures
    Pharaoh and Sharrock had free modal

    I think it's fair to say that Ornette's deliberate structure was inherently more palatable because he was willing to restate themes more than others. You hear it in Eric Dolphy, Don Cherry and Blood Ulmer as well.

    I'm agreeing with you here, but adding a bit of my own thinking. (Or, I guess, a bit of Joe Morris' thinking.)
    On the Turntable: Steve Reich - Phases (box set), Fred Frith Guitar Quartet - Ayaya Moses
    Guitar:
    Fender AVRI '59 w/ TI Swing 11s and Tyson Tone pickups
    Through: Polytone Mini Brute II

  34. #183

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
    Ornette is way different than most free players, which is interesting and somewhat significant in that he kind of created the style. Early Ornette doesn’t destroy tonality and meter. It just frees it. You have to really use your ears to play it. I played several concerts of just Ornette music. It’s not anything goes. There is a structure. You just have to make it happen. Listen to everybody. The chords aren’t written but they’re there. Lonely Woman, Peace, Una Muy Bonita. Great tunes.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    He was a melodicist of the highest order imo

  35. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmpmcdermott View Post
    Was that the Knitting Factory show with Metheny and Bailey. I think most people regard that one as an unfortunate even for both parties involved. Bailey is a hero of mine and I have a ton of respect for Metheny. But I was never under the delusion that they'd be a good combo.
    Yes, it was the Knitting Factory show. They all seemed pretty into it, but for the audience, it was even rougher than a Kenny G. show.

    John

  36. #185

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    Yes, it was the Knitting Factory show. They all seemed pretty into it, but for the audience, it was even rougher than a Kenny G. show.

    John
    Oh, man. I'm so jealous you were there. Even thought it ended up kind of a train wreck, I'd still be into just hearing it in the moment. Plus that whole Knitting Factory scene in the late 80s-late 90s must have been really cool to be immersed in. I lived in New York around 2004-2006 for graduate school and the Knit was still on Leonard Street. Saw some cool stuff there, but it was a different place by that point. Tonic and The Stone were favorites. I wish I'd gone out to see more music, though.
    On the Turntable: Steve Reich - Phases (box set), Fred Frith Guitar Quartet - Ayaya Moses
    Guitar:
    Fender AVRI '59 w/ TI Swing 11s and Tyson Tone pickups
    Through: Polytone Mini Brute II

  37. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmpmcdermott View Post
    Oh, man. I'm so jealous you were there. Even thought it ended up kind of a train wreck, I'd still be into just hearing it in the moment. Plus that whole Knitting Factory scene in the late 80s-late 90s must have been really cool to be immersed in. I lived in New York around 2004-2006 for graduate school and the Knit was still on Leonard Street. Saw some cool stuff there, but it was a different place by that point. Tonic and The Stone were favorites. I wish I'd gone out to see more music, though.
    I would say that by the time the Knitting Factory moved from East Houston to Leonard it had already changed quite a bit, but there was still a lot of great music there. I saw Metheny at Leonard St. one other time with Kenny Garrett (saw that group also at Sweet Basil). Hard to pick a favorite show -- musically I think my favorite period is Still Life Talking, but seeing him with small groups in smaller spaces in some ways trumps the compositional aspects of the PMG shows. I tend to say my favorite was the first I saw, with Charlie Haden and Billie Higgins at the Columbia chapel. As you can tell, I've seem him a bunch ... But I go out a lot less than I used to due to family stuff, and have pretty much lost the thread of the live music scene. I really only have time to play, not to play and go to shows, alas.

    John

  38. #187

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    I would say that by the time the Knitting Factory moved from East Houston to Leonard it had already changed quite a bit, but there was still a lot of great music there. I saw Metheny at Leonard St. one other time with Kenny Garrett (saw that group also at Sweet Basil). Hard to pick a favorite show -- musically I think my favorite period is Still Life Talking, but seeing him with small groups in smaller spaces in some ways trumps the compositional aspects of the PMG shows. I tend to say my favorite was the first I saw, with Charlie Haden and Billie Higgins at the Columbia chapel. As you can tell, I've seem him a bunch ... But I go out a lot less than I used to due to family stuff, and have pretty much lost the thread of the live music scene. I really only have time to play, not to play and go to shows, alas.

    John
    Yeah, I imagine that first space on East Houston was where the magic happened. I don't get out much either, as I have a 1-year-old and a full time job. I saw Mary Halvorson last year and I'm going to try to see Margaret Leng Tan do a bunch of John Cage pieces next month.

    Anyway, thanks for the notes about the Kitting Factory. Love hearing about Downtown music when it was happening, especially first-hand accounts.
    On the Turntable: Steve Reich - Phases (box set), Fred Frith Guitar Quartet - Ayaya Moses
    Guitar:
    Fender AVRI '59 w/ TI Swing 11s and Tyson Tone pickups
    Through: Polytone Mini Brute II

  39. #188

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    I would say that by the time the Knitting Factory moved from East Houston to Leonard it had already changed quite a bit...

    John
    amen to that!!! houston was a musicians hangspot...later versions were a business..no compare..not to say great music wasn't made...but completely different vibe

    it was really an extension of the earlier downtown loft jazz scene


    cheers

  40. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic View Post
    amen to that!!! houston was a musicians hangspot...later versions were a business..no compare..not to say great music wasn't made...but completely different vibe

    it was really an extension of the earlier downtown loft jazz scene


    cheers
    That makes sense. I think that downtown scene had several feeders and one of them was definitely the loft scene. William Parker played there a bunch back then, right? And then I think there's the new music, Feldman/Xenakis-inspired crew. Zorn seemed to be the best at traversing those worlds.

    Sorry to derail the thread. I just love any chance I get to talk about that era of experimental music.
    On the Turntable: Steve Reich - Phases (box set), Fred Frith Guitar Quartet - Ayaya Moses
    Guitar:
    Fender AVRI '59 w/ TI Swing 11s and Tyson Tone pickups
    Through: Polytone Mini Brute II

  41. #190

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    actually jim hall was very dismissive of working with metheney..didn't like pats method of overdubbing and fixing tracks at all

    facts

    cheers

  42. #191

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    Last week I read this article about the recording process behind their duo album. I never knew Metheny played through a Polytone on that album. The article was published at guitarplayer.com in August 1999.

    Dynamic Duo - Jim Hall on the Making of Jim Hall & Pat Metheny
    Have I found it yet? I said that but I didn’t knew it. Did I knew that I had found it yet? No, it wasn’t what I was looking for. Nevermind. Ok.

    -Pataphysical monologue based on Cartesian theory

  43. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I am a huge fan of the old jazz greats: Django, Wes, Grant Green, Joe Pass, Pat Martino, Jim Hall, George Benson, Kenny Burrel, Barney Kessel etc. They all have that funky, bluesy, jazzy guitar style that I love. However, for some reason I just can't get into Pat Metheny. I hear everybody talk about how great he is. And I really want to like it. So far the only thing I really liked is his version of ATTYA with Jim Hall.

    All his other stuff feels so corny to me. Like the smooth jazz you hear in the mall/the weather channel or that new agey stuff. Especially his synth guitar.

    Also, as a person Pat Metheny seems quite pretentious. Of course what Kenny G did is not cool. But as I said, I think his music sounds almost as corny as Kenny G's stuff.

    Will the jazz police arrest me? Am I tone deaf? Am I not smart/deep enough? Will I get the banhammer?
    No. You won't get arrested and yes, a lot of his tracks sound either new agey or smooth jazz ish. He rode that sound to serious fame though. That's just him.
    You can't analyze something you can't play! (Robert Conti)

    Technique is the means to play just like your voice is your means to speak. (Robert Conti)

  44. #193

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    Almost like a Kenny G video....


  45. #194

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    Almost like a Kenny G video....

    Thanks, after literally dozens of consecutive posts where posters arguing about how an artist should or should not behave, and how we reprove, judge or support it, at least we are talking about music again. (I really think personal emotions and judgement bias are holding back understanding music, and in general any art)

    ***

    Needless to deny the most polite we can say this clip is “easy to understand”. Just imagine sax playing the guitar solo, then there we go...

    However this really does not mean PM is equal with Kenny G. as musician. If Kenny G could record Bright Size Life with Jaco, that would mean they are similar as artist.

  46. #195

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmpmcdermott View Post
    That makes sense. I think that downtown scene had several feeders and one of them was definitely the loft scene. William Parker played there a bunch back then, right? And then I think there's the new music, Feldman/Xenakis-inspired crew. Zorn seemed to be the best at traversing those worlds.

    Sorry to derail the thread. I just love any chance I get to talk about that era of experimental music.
    I hand't thought about it that way. I guess in my mind the jazz lofts were very specifically jazz, whereas the downtown scene was broader. It encompassed visual and performance art, dance, rock, world music, etc. E.g. Zorn/Lounge Lizards started out in punk clubs (I saw one of their first shows at a place called Tier 3 '79-ish). But everything I say comes with a big caveat that I was just a kid, and didn't know anything about what I was seeing when I started going to these places (doubtless, I also misremember a lot).

    John

  47. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    Almost like a Kenny G video....

    Actually, I don't think so.. It's a well composed and played pop jazz instrumental tune. I enjoyed it, and I think it has a lot of depth. It's not the same as Kenny G rubbish, one dimensional and banal.

    Of course again, if you look from the angle of classic jazz ala Kenny Barrel or such, you can be disappointed. But why look from that angle? It's really apples and oranges.

    And even in this performance I can still hear PM is influenced by rocknroll. I don't know how, but it's there always, I can feel it. And that's why I always cool with PM, he was the last generation of jazz guitarists who embraced rock music as part of their language. With Sco, Frisell, Abercrombie...

    From there on it's nerds nerds, nerd jazz which is not to my liking at all. So never had a problem with PM, even though I don't own any of his recordings.

  48. #197

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    Almost like a Kenny G video....

    Except for the long synth-guitar solo, which used melodic ideas I can't imagine Kenny G using.

    This really just shows that Metheny can do that thing too, as well as his more advanced material.

    The big question then comes, What precisely can Pat Metheny not do musically? Hard to think of anything.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  49. #198

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    Actually, I don't think so.. It's a well composed and played pop jazz instrumental tune. I enjoyed it, and I think it has a lot of depth.
    Yes it well composed. Yes it is pop. But 99% has nothing to do with jazz, so please do not call it to jazz. Neither the main points of the harmony progression, neither the piano play style. I've carefully listened the guitar solo, except 2 bars it has nothing to do with jazz, and really nothing to do with the jazz legacy. Which is not a problem, just do not categorize it as jazz. Regarding the "depth" it is matter of perception, but (imho) the most appropriate I can describe is "sentimental", (and "easy to understand" as I wrote originally).

    Almost a half century ago Pink Floyd made records what are really more injected with jazz than this PM pop song, but thankfully no one think it is jazz.

    Watch this. This was really something: (in case it starts at 0:00 skip to 15:23)



    and this: (in case it starts at 0:00 skip to 1:57)



    This music rock/pop (actually more influenced with jazz than the PM video, but this is not the point) made music history which is the point. Bright Size Life also made music history. But this Longest Summer thing... I think lost cause to defend it...
    Last edited by Gabor; 09-24-2019 at 09:41 AM.

  50. #199

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    Except for the long synth-guitar solo, which used melodic ideas.

    You are right, there are melodic ideas. However ask yourself: Is there any point where it is surprising or do you hear anything what you did not see to come knowing PM? (either rhythmically or harmonically, or melody wise?) I did not. But I can not deny: really sweet to listen. Unfortunately the very same (literally) melody ideas were already on Bright Size Life, and since then in every single work. The only exceptions I can think about is One Quiet Night (I am not sure how real it is) and Zero Tolerance... which more like experiment than music, max 1% of PM fans are tolerate it. You asking:

    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    What precisely can Pat Methenynot do musically? Hard to think of anything.
    He can do anything you are right, the only drawback he is using the very same melodic ideas (his trademark) + very sophisticated patterns with incredible and unique technique (this is also his trademark). However this does not save this Longest Summer neither makes it musically notable.

  51. #200

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor View Post
    You are right, there are melodic ideas. However ask yourself: Is there any point where it is surprising or do you hear anything what you did not see to come knowing PM? (either rhythmically or harmonically, or melody wise?) I did not. But I can not deny: really sweet to listen. Unfortunately the very same (literally) melody ideas were already on Bright Size Life, and since then in every single work. The only exceptions I can think about is One Quiet Night (I am not sure how real it is) and Zero Tolerance... which more like experiment than music, max 1% of PM fans are tolerate it. You asking:



    He can do anything you are right, the only drawback he is using the very same melodic ideas (his trademark) + very sophisticated patterns with incredible and unique technique (this is also his trademark). However this does not save this Longest Summer neither makes it musically notable.
    Use of the same melodic ideas can be said also of Charlie Parker. The point is, Parker invented those ideas. And the repeated melodic ideas in Metheny's music are things he himself has pioneered. It's kind of like complaining the Louis L'Amour just keeps on writing classic western novels. When the people who actually invented the ideas they repeated use, continually use them, it's not the same as someone who just recycles cliches.

    I'm having trouble figuring out where all this energy to clarify how Metheny isn't playing jazz comes from. There isn't a single authoritative definition of jazz. Swing players claimed bop wasn't jazz. Bop players claimed fusion wasn't jazz. On it goes.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town