The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    There's definitely a spectrum. The guitarist in a stage band I direct can recognise and sing any note played or requested yet he can't tune his guitar accurately without a reference. He's a student of mine, an excellent player who's only been learning for a year and a half and in one of our lessons, he mentioned that his interval awareness was weak. It's not uncommon for people with perfect pitch to have underdeveloped relative pitch skills so I played a middle C and asked him to sing the 3rd. He sang the 5th and I told him that I was looking for an E. He supplied that immediately. I followed with a G and then quickly threw him the names for a bunch of non-diatonic tones. They all came back with 100% accuracy. I asked this student how he identified each one and his source was songs by The Beatles, The Who, The Kinks and The Small Faces (so an absolute knowledge of British mod groups of the '60s as well, interesting enough for a 17 year old!).
    Yeah that’s interesting. Pianists have the obvious anchors of the piano keyboard whether they have relative or perfect pitch... singers use solfege.

    Anyway that sounds like perfect pitch to me. But I’m not an expert obv

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  3. #27

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    Let’s just be thankful he didn’t take his A from Ticket to Ride

  4. #28

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    That's nothing compared to the opening of You're Gonna Lose That Girl from the same album. The introduction before the verse kicks in almost makes me feel seasick:


  5. #29
    When I was a teenager, I remember reading an article by a clergyman that said that The Beatles' music was satanic because they used harmonies based on fourths. This song is a perfect example. However, I have no inclination to worship satan when I listen to it. I'm still bewildered by his comment. Why fourths and not tritones??!!

    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    That's nothing compared to the opening of You're Gonna Lose That Girl from the same album. The introduction before the verse kicks in almost makes me feel seasick:

  6. #30

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    I remember reading somewhere that we are supposedly all born with perfect pitch but we lose it as we grow older. As an explanation was stated that it could help the baby recognize the unique voice of it's mother or something like that.

    Is this true? I do know that my daughter would always sing the children's songs that she was taught in the same key (I know because I had the habit of playing along with her and it struck me she would always singing a song in a certain key - different keys for different songs but every individual song always in it's own key). Now that she is older, plays piano and guitar, sings a lot and listens a lot to music the key of a song doesn't seem so relevant anymore and she will practice a song in different keys (she's a very good singer by the way, always sings in tune).

    Myself, I have always been skeptical about the importance of perfect pitch for a musician. The father of my first band's bass player had perfect pitch but he could never listen to our group comfortably because of course we were hardly ever tuned exactly to 440hz. He built his own harpsichords but was always tormented when they would not be exactly tuned at 440 while to me they sounded perfectly fine (in tune with itself). This actually led me to believe that perfect pitch was more of a handicap than a benefit for a musician.....

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Jay

    Myself, I have always been skeptical about the importance of perfect pitch for a musician.
    I used to think that it seemed like an advantage, but, I don't think it's as big of a deal as many people make it out to be. A lot of musicians I know with perfect pitch say that they still had to develop their relative pitch and they felt that was more important.

    It does seem like a lot of people who were good very, very young, do have perfect pitch (Chris Potter, Brad Mehldau, etc), but, who knows.

  8. #32

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    Perfect pitch has been found in birds, but not relative pitch (when the pitch is shifted they don't recognize their own calls). Perfect pitch is the primitive version of pitch discrimination... it is relative pitch that is the more complex and advanced (and the basis of music). The idea that if one had perfect pitch they would have relative pitch is logically true because if A is false then A->B is true whether B is true or false, so even though the premise is false the proposition is true. The "truthiness" of "A" (perfect pitch) has problems as a concept with respect to human music. What temperament and concert pitch is one's "perfect pitch"? Both the standard concert pitch and current temperament are relatively quite modern... concert pitch has ranged over half an octave and there have been about two dozen temperaments over the last few hundreds of years.

    Django played by ear, self taught, like Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, and many other top jazz guitarists - and for those that don't understand, this means not knowing or not having to know the names of the notes or chords. It means knowing (hearing in one's mind) the sound you want to hear out of the instrument.

    The biggest myth in jazz among guitarists is that having to know the names of things is necessary and those that didn't must have had some kind of perfect pitch. The truth is that they played by ear, but so few people even know what that means these days. Likewise the idea of being self taught; music is inherently self revealing if one will stop trying to "understand it" by translating it into visual, verbal, or graphical modes for external representation and distribution, and just truly listen to it phenomenologically as music (because music is sound, not pictures, words, or shapes, figures, forms, or any of the things people try to use as the basis for grasping it).

  9. #33

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    Many of the great composers in music and improvisers in jazz did not possess perfect pitch. Django grew up in a musical family which in my opinion is vastly more important than perfect pitch. Jack Grassel has an interesting take on perfect pitch (he has PP) on his website (See weblink below). My father was an engineer and a sailboat builder and despite me never actually working in any of his businesses ( I did help him and spent hours watching him work as a child) , I ended up in the same field and have similar mechanical aptitudes as does my sister.

    Free Lessons and Sage Advice

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    There's definitely a spectrum. The guitarist in a stage band I direct can recognise and sing any note played or requested yet he can't tune his guitar accurately without a reference.
    Oddly enough, I can tune my guitar fairly accurately without a reference, like when I change all strings at once, but I can't determine the pitch of a piano note without reference.

  11. #35
    As I read all these very academic definitions of perfect pitch, I think I will clarify my premise. I believe Django knew exactly what note(s) he wanted to play and I think he knew exactly where to go on his fretboard to play them. I believe that many of us here have developed something close to that, just not many that had it to his degree. Whether that fits everybody's definition of perfect pitch or not, I could have easily said that he had a "durn good ear." Which would have probably resulted in a "well duh!!" response.

    Could he name the notes as he heard them? I don't know and don't really care. All I know, based on what I hear in his playing and what I have read in various biographies, is he could jump in a song without music or preparation and play something very outstanding! If it was not perfect pitch, by the above definitions, it was something very akin to it.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by rsclosson
    As I read all these very academic definitions of perfect pitch, I think I will clarify my premise. I believe Django knew exactly what note(s) he wanted to play and I think he knew exactly where to go on his fretboard to play them. I believe that many of us here have developed something close to that, just not many that had it to his degree. Whether that fits everybody's definition of perfect pitch or not, I could have easily said that he had a "durn good ear." Which would have probably resulted in a "well duh!!" response.

    Could he name the notes as he heard them? I don't know and don't really care. All I know, based on what I hear in his playing and what I have read in various biographies, is he could jump in a song without music or preparation and play something very outstanding! If it was not perfect pitch, by the above definitions, it was something very akin to it.
    I sometimes think working too much from theory gets in the way of this. Really this is the skill one needs to be developing as a priority. What else is there?

    And while the experts on the subject I have talked to regard perfect pitch as not something that can be learned in adult life, this is a skill all of us can improve from whatever basis we are coming from.

    Really that’s what transcription and song learning are all about... after you’ve learned your 300th standard by ear, you will be able to do this too.

    Jazz was simpler in the 1930s and 40s, tbf. The music was more about melody, less about changes.

  13. #37

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    Oh - I think these discussions people often make out the playing what you hear on the guitar thing to be more of a big deal than it is.

    In my experience, the thing that in most cases requires the most work is the quality of the hearing itself - audiation away from the instrument which is to say musical imagination and memory. This is where the likes of Mozart, Jimi and Django are really extraordinary.

    Most guitar players are inveterate noodlers so when you hear someone who is hearing something the qualitative difference is stark even if they say they can’t execute everything they hear. You may even find this contrast in different parts of your own playing.

  14. #38

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    Taking some liberties paraphrasing rsclosson with some friendly "fixed that for you" edits...

    "I believe Django heard in his mind's ear exactly what pitch(s) he wanted to play and I think he knew exactly where to go on his fretboard to play them. I believe that many of us here have developed something close to that, just not many that had it to his degree. That fits everybody's definition of relative pitch, I could have easily said that he had a "durn good ear." Which would have probably resulted in a "well duh!!" response.

    Could he name the notes as he heard them? I don't know and don't really care. All I know, based on what I hear in his playing and what I have read in various biographies, is he could jump in a song without music or preparation and play something very outstanding! It was not perfect pitch, by its wrong definitions, it was something superior to it... relative pitch and audiation."

    ---

    Now that is much further along the path. To jump in a song without music or preparation and play something very outstanding is the hallmark of relative pitch, musically cultivated, developed, and practiced over time performing with others. It generally describes a jazz guitarist's dream goal.

    ---

    To the world, please, no more about the myth of perfect pitch. I read the whole page linked in another thread from a music teacher claiming perfect pitch for himself and some of his students. His "proofs" all indicated that he confounds perfect pitch with relative pitch, disproves himself mentioning circumstances when he does not get it within a couple of semi-tones, uses examples where confirmed pitches occur immediately before, mistakes psycho-physics for aging (misunderstanding sweetened tuning/German tuning), etc... He does not know what he is writing about but pushes the myth. All sources I have read have the same kinds of misunderstandings that demonstrate the authors have not dug deep enough to reveal how foolish they have been.

    We should never mention perfect pitch again; nobody intrinsically hears perfect pitch because there is no objective external perfect pitch system - all are a choice among assignments of concert pitch and selection of temperament, neither of which are fixed against to which a pitch could be matched as perfect. The idea is a conceptual and logical error.

  15. #39

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    Let's see... I started ear training at 20 and now I'm...er... do I have to say my age?

    Anyway, I am still developing my relative pitch--both systematically, and through transcribing.

    The notes pop out more, and have more meaning to me now-a-days--when I play and when I listen.

    I actually wanted to start a thread about not looking at your fretboard. I find that when I close my eyes, I can connect with my inner ear and really focus on the sounds I'm making--not the mechanics or the theory. Granted, mechanics and theory are incredibly important--in the practice room. But when I play, all that gets in the way of the music. I LOVE shifting around the fretboard--and I've practiced it enough that I can jump around horizontally and still land on the notes I hear--on ballads and medium tunes--I can't do that at some of the tempos Djangy did...whew.

    It's not just the notes--it's control of the arch of your improvisation. Relative Pitch is more than note to note. It's note to chord progression--even more so--its note to KEY CENTER (or note collection--if you are thinking more modern music). If you are focused more on the sound you are creating--rather than the theory and technique--you'll end up listening more--to yourself and everyone around you. If you get good at listening--to yourself and others--then you can work on the most important part of it all...

    ...the music, telling your story, communicating with others in ways words can't... all that good stuff.

    That said, what really gets me all excited is time feel and rhythm. It's the PLACEMENT of notes in TIME that mark the great player from the not-so-great. Did we ever start a sub forum on rhythm and time? Just this morning, I was listening back to my playing and I thought "EWWWWW! My eighth lines are so JANKY!"

    Django had a great time feel.

    Billy Bean had a great time feel.

    George Benson had a great time feel--I think Billy Bean and George Benson are tied for the best eighth note in my opinion. They place their eighth notes differently, but they both move the music like mad once they start laying down them eighths.

    Wes Montgomery had a great time feel.

    Grant Green had a great time feel.

    ...and that's just guitarists.

    Wait... what were we talking about?

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    Sounds to me like you're doing the right thing, and doing it right...

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    Did we ever start a sub forum on rhythm and time?
    No, why didn't we?

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    Sounds to me like you're doing the right thing, and doing it right...
    If that was sincere and not sarcastic (sometimes that can get lost on the internets) then that means a lot--coming from you.

    I don't want to side rail the OP, but I feel like when I was first learning jazz--I had all this freedom. This was before I learned a bunch of theory and before systematic contextual ear training. I just played along to records, played all the wrong notes, and had the time of my life.

    Then, as I got deeper in my studies, my theory started to ruin all my fun. I doubted everything I played. I felt trapped.

    That's not what learning theory is supposed to do, but I know I am not alone in my trajectory. I wonder what would have happened if I learned how to play jazz by ear, at least at the foundational level--and then learned the theory thereafter.

    I think working on your ear is freeing. I think working on your is a life long pursuit. I think working on your ear is essential to playing music--any good music (any genre)--right.

    That said, Chris77--why don't you talk to the site admin about starting a thread on rhythm and time. We created a whole thread arguing about this, remember?

    We could finally have a place to talk about swing feel, syncopation, laying back, all the stuff we've started to talk about recently. Fact is, we can't play jazz without close study of time and rhythm. I often get swept up in everything else that I forget that.

  19. #43

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    last comment, this video is for Chris77:


  20. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I sometimes think working too much from theory gets in the way of this. Really this is the skill one needs to be developing as a priority. What else is there?

    And while the experts on the subject I have talked to regard perfect pitch as not something that can be learned in adult life, this is a skill all of us can improve from whatever basis we are coming from.

    Really that’s what transcription and song learning are all about... after you’ve learned your 300th standard by ear, you will be able to do this too.

    Jazz was simpler in the 1930s and 40s, tbf. The music was more about melody, less about changes.
    Probably the best comment on this thread. When I finally "listened" to Joe Pass and many other great musicians through their articles and interviews and stopped studying theory, chords, scales and modes, and started learning tunes, my improvement started to speed up exponentially, and its still improving.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    If that was sincere and not sarcastic (sometimes that can get lost on the internets) then that means a lot--coming from you.

    I don't want to side rail the OP, but I feel like when I was first learning jazz--I had all this freedom. This was before I learned a bunch of theory and before systematic contextual ear training. I just played along to records, played all the wrong notes, and had the time of my life.

    Then, as I got deeper in my studies, my theory started to ruin all my fun. I doubted everything I played. I felt trapped.

    That's not what learning theory is supposed to do, but I know I am not alone in my trajectory. I wonder what would have happened if I learned how to play jazz by ear, at least at the foundational level--and then learned the theory thereafter.

    I think working on your ear is freeing. I think working on your is a life long pursuit. I think working on your ear is essential to playing music--any good music (any genre)--right.

    That said, Chris77--why don't you talk to the site admin about starting a thread on rhythm and time. We created a whole thread arguing about this, remember?

    We could finally have a place to talk about swing feel, syncopation, laying back, all the stuff we've started to talk about recently. Fact is, we can't play jazz without close study of time and rhythm. I often get swept up in everything else that I forget that.
    I did, and was told there were too many sections already lol

  22. #46

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    when I take vocal classes... the teacher asked me before the first lesson: So you have a perfect pitch? I said: No...
    She says: great! if all goes well I will soon put you into our stundents' vocal group))))

    Sreiously
    I think most of jazz players of old school at least had very good ears.... we just do not think and do not know about it.
    I think it was more important for jazz than for classical wehre there is a system of education that can help you to overcome hearing problem...

    Jazz players came form nothing except practice and enviroment... so those who could hear - could play... those who could not did something else.

    It is interestng that we often forget about it when we discuss the style and approach of this and that player...
    trying to copy it... or trying to re-create his routine...

    (When someone sayd: Wes copied all CC solos! Let's do that.... No need to say that picking up CC solo is a great self-learning tool but usually no-one says how well Wes could hear it and how quickly he could grasp it by ear from the record. Maybe you as a student might need something else first? like picking Marry had a little lamb? rather then go to CC and die from frustration?)

    while analyzing we forget that it is quite possible that there was no educational sysytem and that we can copy his routine but we cannot copy his natural gifts for hearing or rythm....

    It does not mean that we cannot develope it and bevome good at musicbut we just probably need some other tools for that.



    So Djangi was pretty close to perfect pitch I believe... again I think it is important for self-taught jazz old school players.

    If we look at classucal there were great composers who did not have perfect pitch but sysytem of classical education was focused more on developing musicality and realtive pistch so they did not have to worry about it.

    Jazzists sdid not have that support - they could rely only on their ears.

  23. #47

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    I wonder if there is connection between trainiing ones ear and Learning on a fretless instument; I played the violin as a child and teen and since I was too lazy to learn the required songs from the sheet music I purchased records and learned from them. This along with the violin having no frets helped develop my ear (but today I'm still a poor site reader). But I have sound relative pitch.

    (sorry for spelling etc.. I'm in Italy using an Euro keyboard (good for French accents|), but spellcheck is set on Italian.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    I wonder if there is connection between trainiing ones ear and Learning on a fretless instument; I played the violin as a child and teen and since I was too lazy to learn the required songs from the sheet music I purchased records and learned from them. This along with the violin having no frets helped develop my ear (but today I'm still a poor site reader). But I have sound relative pitch.

    (sorry for spelling etc.. I'm in Italy using an Euro keyboard (good for French accents|), but spellcheck is set on Italian.
    I think it probably does.