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  1. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor View Post
    Agree. I think the "foggy" is more appropriate, and the question arises why?
    I'd say it's because we seek the tones that speak to us and who cares if anyone else likes it. I think all true artists stay true by not worrying about what others think. They create and if people like it...bonus. Not all successful players are artists and not all artists are successful (waaaay more of these), but...we do our own thing. I love PM's tone...it speaks to me. What you call "foggy," I call fluid. Some other players that are revered...they have a tone that I would describe as "dry" and/or "percussive" and that usually doesn't move me. "There ain't no good guy. There ain't no bad guy. There's just you and me and we just disagree."(gratuitous Dave Mason quote).

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  3. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor View Post
    Agree. I think the "foggy" is more appropriate, and the question arises why? (see Rejoicing/Tears Inside) It is extreme, and I risk the opinion it is going to expense of the expression and Metheny tries to "hide" something where there should be nothing to hide. Anyway, I managed to listen that LP ziliion times. Not talking about 80/81.

    Now I adore Peter Bernstein and Jesse van Ruller's sound of picking
    I think you are attributing more of Metheny’s picking sound to his amp set up, whereas I think it’s actually the way he sounds.

    His pick attack is pretty unique on any instrument. I think it has to do with the way he picks which is also pretty unique.

  4. #153
    Tag. Tag knows tone.

  5. #154
    Controversial, but:



    Everyone seems to hate on John Williams in the classical guitar world. Why? I love David Russell, Bream, and Segovia as well--but John Williams is way more than a technician of the instrument. His tone is to die for, in my opinion. I think that Johnny Smith got close on his Gibson, but I still haven't found that pristine tone in the realm of jazz guitar... maybe Jack Peterson (North Texas guy, I believe).

    I've been in the process of cleaning up my tone for years. I think John Williams is my model, however impossible as that might be

  6. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    Controversial, but:



    Everyone seems to hate on John Williams in the classical guitar world. Why? I love David Russell, Bream, and Segovia as well--but John Williams is way more than a technician of the instrument. His tone is to die for, in my opinion. I think that Johnny Smith got close on his Gibson, but I still haven't found that pristine tone in the realm of jazz guitar... maybe Jack Peterson (North Texas guy, I believe).

    I've been in the process of cleaning up my tone for years. I think John Williams is my model, however impossible as that might be
    Not Lage Lund?

  7. #156
    "hate" is a strong word, but david russell blows him away
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  8. #157
    White belt
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  9. #158
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    A classical guitar smackdown! Wait a minute, let me make some popcorn.

    Build bridges, not walls.

  10. #159
    If I could get a warm, bright tone, with all the woodiness of my hollow body--I would be very happy.

    I'm getting sick of the whole "you have to get as dark as possible" to achieve a good jazz tone.

    Does that mean I need to switch to P90's or Filter'trons?

    I think it's much harder to play with a bright, trebly tone than it is to go dark. A trebly tone will expose all the mistakes in your playing that you can hide going dark. And if you play with thick round wounds, as I do, yikes... I'd have a lot of work ahead of me. To be honest, I find myself darkening up my own tone to hide any inconsistencies in my playing. I end up with mud. Only recently have I tried to lighten up (wow, imagine reading this post in another context...jeez) and it's really, really hard to do.

    George Barnes comes to mind. So does Barney Kessel and Grant Green.

    That's why I mentioned Graham Dechter. He is one of the few guys to embrace a brighter tone when just about everyone else his age is doing the whole "Kurt Rosenwinkle/ Alan Holdsworth/ Pat Metheny" dance.
    Last edited by Irez87; 04-23-2019 at 12:36 PM.

  11. #160
    P-90's are the answer.

    What was the question?
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
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    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  12. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    P-90's are the answer.

    What was the question?
    Name a noisy pup?

    Build bridges, not walls.

  13. #162
    But I like doggies!

    The question was, what pickup could give me a brighter tone without sacrificing the inherit woodiness of my archtop?

    I am currently using a Shadow AZ-49 pickup as a replacement for my knock off Chinese Kent Armstrong that came with my guitar:

    Shadow SH AZ-49 Attila Zoller Jazz Pickup | Reverb

    When I brought my guitar into John Carruthers's shop, he wanted to sell me his humbucker. I dunno, 400 smackers for one pup... maybe?

    I know this isn't a gear thread, but it is a tone page--so I thought my worries had a good seat in this conversation.

  14. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    ...the whole "Kurt Rosenwinkle/ Alan Holdsworth/ Pat Metheny" dance.
    I gotta ask...what on earth do these guys have in common (apart from being game-changing monsters)? I happen to dig their tones...personally...but they aren't even close tonally.

    Sometimes I play rolled off and sometimes not...situational for me. I don't ever even consider hiding mistakes as a motivational factor for that (not that anyone implied that). I'm going for a sound, a feel, a mood, a color...call it what you want, but it's never about hiding mistakes (plenty of which I make for sure). As I mentioned earlier, I don't care for a "percussive" pick-every-note or a dry sound myself. Other people dig that...good for them.

  15. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by jbear View Post
    I gotta ask...what on earth do these guys have in common (apart from being game-changing monsters)? I happen to dig their tones...personally...but they aren't even close tonally.

    Sometimes I play rolled off and sometimes not...situational for me. I don't ever even consider hiding mistakes as a motivational factor for that. I'm going for a sound, a feel, a mood, a color...call it what you want, but it's never about hiding mistakes (plenty of which I make for sure). As I mentioned earlier, I don't care for a "percussive" pick-every-note or a dry sound myself. Other people dig that...good for them.
    I think the "commonality" is that they use (sometimes) a "processed" tone, which to the purists all sound the same.

    Which is of course funny, because to the modern cats, all those fogeys copping the classic sounds of the 50's sound the same.

    One thing that always strikes me as funny is the notion of jazz tones being "dark." Because so many classic tones were anything but. I feel like that's a stereotype perpetuated by folks who only own a Wes on Verve CD and Pat Martino's "Remembering."
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  16. #165
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    I usually like a mellow tone with a little grit and soul to it, but not so toneless as to allow the chords to melt into a big blob.

    I have always liked Kenny Burrell and Joe Pass, among others, in that regard.

    Come to think of it, here's Joe's Mellow Tone:



    Not a speck of cereal (just some sweet reverb).

    I like Jim Hall for his single lines and his overall vibe when comping, but his tone especially on later recordings is a little dark and muddy for me. I compensate by turning the volume up higher than I should need to.
    “Without music, life would be a mistake”--Friedrich Nietzsche

    Current lineup: Gibson ES-135 ('02), Peerless Sunset, Harmony Brilliant Cutaway ('64), Godin 5th Avenue, Alvarez AC60 A/E classical, Kay K37 ('56), Fender Squier VM Jazz bass, several ukes. Amps: Fishman Artist, Fender SCXD, Pignose 7-100.

  17. #166
    I think that is accurate Jeff...and perceptive!

  18. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    Controversial, but:



    Everyone seems to hate on John Williams in the classical guitar world. Why? I love David Russell, Bream, and Segovia as well--but John Williams is way more than a technician of the instrument. His tone is to die for, in my opinion. I think that Johnny Smith got close on his Gibson, but I still haven't found that pristine tone in the realm of jazz guitar... maybe Jack Peterson (North Texas guy, I believe).

    I've been in the process of cleaning up my tone for years. I think John Williams is my model, however impossible as that might be
    i think those whose music appreciation comes from outer space or their next door neighbours view have a hang up about John Williams participation in the super group Sky



    ”purists” grhhh
    “When you’re creating your own ...., man, even the sky ain’t the limit.”
    Miles Davis

  19. #168
    I saw John Williams at Chicago's Orchestra Hall when is was about 17. 3rd row, center seat. Mesmerizing.

    I've never been a classical player, but that moment right there made me realize what a guitar can do in the right hands.

    Haters gonna hate.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  20. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    If I could get a warm, bright tone, with all the woodiness of my hollow body--I would be very happy.

    I'm getting sick of the whole "you have to get as dark as possible" to achieve a good jazz tone.

    Does that mean I need to switch to P90's or Filter'trons?

    I think it's much harder to play with a bright, trebly tone than it is to go dark. A trebly tone will expose all the mistakes in your playing that you can hide going dark. And if you play with thick round wounds, as I do, yikes... I'd have a lot of work ahead of me. To be honest, I find myself darkening up my own tone to hide any inconsistencies in my playing. I end up with mud. Only recently have I tried to lighten up (wow, imagine reading this post in another context...jeez) and it's really, really hard to do.

    George Barnes comes to mind. So does Barney Kessel and Grant Green.

    That's why I mentioned Graham Dechter. He is one of the few guys to embrace a brighter tone when just about everyone else his age is doing the whole "Kurt Rosenwinkle/ Alan Holdsworth/ Pat Metheny" dance.
    I certainly find the classic Fender clean harder to play. Harder than unamplified for sure.

    OTOH it’s good to recall what the audience gets is not what you get.

    If you want to tame the sound I would say - don’t roll off on the guitar. Get an EQ....

  21. #170
    An EQ unit?

    I use a boost box to get more umph from my pickup, it also sheds off a lot of the muddiness.

    I dunno if I'm a fogey, but I do think Wes's tone was at it's best on his Live at the Half Note--I think it was because the recording engineers actually knew how to properly record him and the rest of the quartet.

    I like Lage's playing alot, we share similar philosophies on not using barres or half barres for single line and chordal work. He's also one of the few guitarists out there that is actually talking about the macro time concept that I am always blathering on about (go Lage!)



    I really like Rosenwinkie's concepts on harmony.

    Johnathan Kreisberg was a beast of player when I saw him up in Harlem, and he seems like a really cool guy.

    And Holdsworth is an incredibly exciting player- he's probably the closest you will ever get to Coltrane on the guitar.

    That said, I just don't prefer the tone that they use--Currently, I am aiming for something brighter because my tone has always been muddy (because I was under the wrongful impression that I was suppose to dial all the treble off). Call me traditional if you will, but I like what I like

  22. #171
    Lots more of them too, but I'd put these among my current and longest lasting favorites for tone:

    Jimmy Raney (Doug too)
    Johnny Smith
    Ed Bickert
    Grant Green
    Django electric
    Bireli Lagrene
    Jesse Van Ruller
    Sean Levitt
    Ted Greene
    Philip Catherine
    Jack Wilkins

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