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I love Joe Pass and he is why I wanted to play jazz. However, over the years, I have become SLIGHTLY critical of his playing (for example his right hand). Now, in no way do I believe he was a bad player, I just mean I hear a few things that I believe could have been improved upon. But again, please understand that I think he is an allstar and a jazz great!
Over the years, I have heard a few players who took Joe's style and improved on it; one of those players is Pasquale Grasso. In my opinion, he is Joe on steroids.
*********I define that style to be someone whose hands are fast enough to fill in the space and create a second melody with the rhythm**********
Then on YouTube last week I heard this young French kid named Antoine Boyer. Like Pasquale, he has a classical background, and I think that is important.
In the comment section (the greatest place for intellectual conversations hahah), someone said one day he may be is good as Joe Pass. I got a few nasty replies because I said I think his playing is better than Joe's.
You may not know Antoine, but in general, am I off base?Last edited by eh6794-2.0; 01-10-2019 at 01:15 PM.
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01-07-2019 03:12 PM
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Well, technique does not necessarily equal "interesting to listen to."
I've heard Boyer, he's outstanding.
I generally don't really get into the whole comparing of players.
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Antoine Boyer comparable with Joe Pass? You must be joking. They're on completely different planets
I agree wholeheartedly with Jeff about comparisons but you'd have to get a young gypsy guitarist of about the same age if you wanted to make comparisons.
But Joe Pass? Not even when he did Django tunes did Joe Pass sound remotely gypsy. He was jazz, pure and simple.
We must, if one has to at all, compare like with like.
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As good as Joe may imply that the newcomer will build a recording catalog that surpasses Joe as well as a reputation that surpasses Joe. This would go from subjective opinions of a smaller crowd, and move into more solid proof along with a catalog of work for the ages?
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There will never be another Joe Pass.
There will be others who are great too.
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I love Joe on some albums, especially accompanying the singers. Classic jazz!
But his solo 'virtuoso' albums turned me off jazz for long time when I was discovering new music for myself. That something I never wanted to sound like.
His technique was really good I think, but technique is not important to me as criteria of enjoyment. I mean, anyone whos playing instrument should have one, but what really matters is a 'feel'. In that sense Joe Pass maybe a bit, well, passe
Still, IMO all of us can learn a lot from him.
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I always compare and contrast. That is why I made this comparison. You know he does a lot more than gypsy jazz, right?
Originally Posted by ragman1
Antoine Boyer comparable with Joe Pass? You must be joking. They're on completely different planets
I agree wholeheartedly with Jeff about comparisons but you'd have to get a young gypsy guitarist of about the same age if you wanted to make comparisons.
But Joe Pass? Not even when he did Django tunes did Joe Pass sound remotely gypsy. He was jazz, pure and simple.
We must, if one has to at all, compare like with like.
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It is all subjective. I have seen young Mr.Boyer, a great player to be sure, but I saw Joe Pass many, many times and can say with certainty that young Mr. Boyer, while a great player is no Joe Pass. IMO of course!
YMMV
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Out of curiosity, which Antoine Boyer video did you think was better than Joe? Would be handy to have the link posted here. Originally Posted by eh6794-2.0
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The first Virtuoso recording Joe did was the Landmark. I spoken about this many times about the effect it had in Jazz guitar, in addition to my own feelings and experiences. It came out in 1973 and as a 12 year old Mel Bay book 1 player Joe touched every thing about music, jazz, and swing I could handle. Ask Lawson Stone lots more of stuff to take in......
We cannot compare guitar players as such, it is not a 5000 meters on the track to be timed. I don’t necessarily see Barney Kessel as the most technologically great player of some, but he could paint a picture with a tune at
times that just keeps ringing in the ear.
Everyone has to find their own voice in playing, for a hack like myself it keeps me constantly struggling. I will not succeed. But I have hope!
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"but what really matters is a 'feel'. In that sense Joe Pass maybe a bit, well, passe"
Huh?
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I don't know why people knock Joe's tone. I recently listened through every track by Joe I own, which is almost all of them. Yes, a few albums had poor tone, but normally because they were badly recorded. 95% of the time, I though the had a very fine tone and feel. It's one thing to think we don't prefer a certain tone, quite another to say it's poor.
I also am not sure about the OP's critique of Joe's RH technique. That's something I've always admired. With the pick, he does not prop his hand at all, but has a very fluid motion using a form of economy picking. Rarely do you get sloppy sweeps, though he does slur a lot. Fingerstyle, Joe's hand position is almost classical. Again, no propping on the pinky, but a free hand poised over the strings in a very effective position with the guitar held almost in the classical posture. He adapted finger style to bebop type lines in what has to be about the only way it can be done. Listening to his lines, I can be hard to know if he's using pick or fingers.
On the LH, I am always amazed at how Joe played in position. You rarely see him jumping, stretching, reaching, he always seems to have the notes right under his fingers. I admire that.
So I would be curious what defects of technique the OP finds in Joe Pass' playing.
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Not to get into a big debate about his techniques and my opinion, but I believe he had a weak right hand that didn't always keep up with his left hand. I think that issue lead to some time issues that, IMO, were not necessarily artistic. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
And again, as I said in my first post, most of us could only dream of playing as well as Joe and he is a true legend.
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I agree that comparisons are meaningless in the long run. I love Joe Pass, was lucky enough to see him several times. IMO he was the consummate accompanists especially with work he did with Ella Fitzgerald. He set a very high bar in that regard. All that said the one thing he would do that really was off putting to me were the 16th or 32nd note runs. To me they are jarring and very non- musical. Just my thoughts.
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Sure, but I wouldn't call it jazz. Not as such, anyway, and certainly not à la Joe Pass! Originally Posted by eh6794-2.0
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I would! Originally Posted by ragman1
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We're humans so we are hard-wired to compare but it's not the most productive activity when comparing artists/musicians - each has their strengths and weaknesses - and when you start cross-pollinating different eras, it moves toward the pointless. Boyer is a gifted player who came out of a specific musical culture. Pass came of age in an altogether different culture - pushed by his immigrant family to move beyond the Pennsylvania coal mines by practicing many hours a day as a boy. He had an amazing ear. I recall the classical guitarist Elliott Fisk commenting that when he played with Joe, Pass improvised brilliantly on classical themes he had likely never heard before. Everyone has weaknesses - if you ask me, Pass had a certain stiffness in his time feel that some less gifted players didn't seem to have. Yet few guitarists showed the complete musicality he had; Pass always seemed to be creating and not just running practiced licks. Part of that is craftsmanship to hide the seams but the other part is learning to channel pure improvisation. Many guitarists have today moved more to the Hall/Frisell school of playing which, while it may perhaps date Joe's work a bit, it doesn't in any way diminish it.
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I think we're being led astray by the OP :-)
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LMAO. I can assure you, I am not leading you astray. I just wanted opinions. Although some of the people partially agree with me, the majority do think I was off-base. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Funny but “Virtuoso” was what turned me ON to jazz guitar. And while I get led astray, Joe Pass is still the player I aspire to be like most.
That said, the sound engineer on that album should be shot (or at least a rotten egg thrown at his tombstone).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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I think this is wonderful, and wonderfully complete.
Oscar Peterson introduces Joe. Of course, Joe played in one of Oscar's many trios. Joe said that it was with Oscar that he developed the habit of not rehearsing. They only got together once to run over a few tunes---to feel each other out, you might say---and thereafter, they didn't rehearse. Joe said their harmonic sensibilities were so much alike that they didn't need to. They played tunes they way they played...
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This last sentence just stuns me. I cannot imagine how someone could call Joe Pass' melodic improvisation "jarring and very non-musical." Sort of like when Solieri said Mozart's music had "too many notes." Originally Posted by mwcarr
Joes swift bop lines in 16th and 32nd notes strike me as a delicate, wrought-iron baroque type of structure that has the beauty of a rapidly growing, complex crystal. Sharp, sparkling, spinning, stunning. The fact that his recordings were whole takes without punching in to cover mistakes left him vulnerable to people taking shots at him. But if you get inside Pass' lines, they are not just "very musical," they are breath-taking.
Joe Pass wasn't perfect, but for mainstream bop oriented standards-based jazz guitar playing, he is a standard setter with few equals. Maybe a reset on what we think is "very non-musical" is in order.
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It's off-base because the two aren't comparable. If you must compare, and I don't know why you do, compare him with another gypsy jazz guitarist, not an American bebop player! Originally Posted by eh6794-2.0
It's quite simple. Would you compare Picasso with Rembrandt? Or Miro with Goya? It doesn't make sense.
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I think you are confused. You might want to go back and reread what I originally wrote. And go listen to Antoine again, he has a lot more than just gypsy Originally Posted by ragman1
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You said you thought his playing was better than Joe's. Which is ridiculous.
In any case, frankly, I think comparing him with other gypsy players is wrong anyway because to me he looks too young. He simply hasn't got the experience and it shows. Sure, he's talented and his spindly fingers can zoom round the notes but there's not a lot of soul in it that I can hear.because I said I think his playing is better than Joe's.
I'm afraid that's what I really think.
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