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J
Originally Posted by voxss
Joe served 5 years in a prison in Dallas IIRC. This would have probably been late 1950s/early 1960s, because he was recording Sounds of Synanon by the early 1960s.
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01-10-2019 05:08 PM
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In keeping with your observations, the phrase "Joe Pass arrangement" is not accurate. You might be transcribing a Joe Pass performance, but it is not an arrangement. It was an improvisation, captured on record, and transcribed. Okay, I have that out of my system now... Originally Posted by ESCC
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ty BUDDY .. fills a gap ..heroin bust i think i read...
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Wasn't he also in the marines briefly? Originally Posted by guitarbuddy
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You know.. I will say just one thing...
I have never been a Joe Pass fan... of course I admired his skills but I got bored with it all quickly and considered his prominence to be a little bit of a technical trick... like nobody played solo jazz guitar this style before... it was kind marketing idea too.. great idea, and brilliant realization.
But (yeh it is a very but but) after years I began to appreciate his musical ideas - I did not become a fan... but I think I began to hear better at fast tempos... and fell more like he felt it probably...
I began to enjoy his as a musician.. (
still I prefer something his duo with Red Mitchell... it is great music... and this is what wanted to say...
Joe had the kind special authencity .. you see maybe main feature of his playing is ecxactly that he has NO classical guitar backgroud. I clearly hear his roots in his playing and these are the roots you can hardly hear now in any young player.
I appriciate this perfect imperfectness of his playing, his little little tricks (you know he was a smart man I hear it in his playing), even his mistakes...
You know there are guitars and posple who master them and play them... (Andre for example)
and Joe is one of those who do not play a guitar... he played a sort of joetar.
After all it's jazz...
it is not important that to be a master on the instrument as to be yourself through the instrument.
I know only those who sterelized it and made it a faceless corny mainstream.Over the years, I have heard a few players who took Joe's style and improved on it
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I did not need to read this thread to know that I am "outdated". But after 61 revolutions of the planet around the sun, I have learned that most often, the "Hippest" is actually the "squarest" .
When it comes to jazz guitar, Joe Pass is the "hippest" to me (along with Wes). On tonight's gig, I will be playing one of my flatwound equipped ES-175's into my Henriksen/Raezer's Edge rig. I keep getting hired for well paid gigs, outdated though I may be. What a wonderful world indeed!
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Agreed. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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another of Joes claim to fame was his instruction books ..cant remember the title ..the covers missing...yeah no tabs..my copy is falling apart..i think Dutchbopper showed how to play the solos...must check them out again..
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Almost everything said here turns out to be not quite right. Joe did indeed work through the Carcassi method the beginning, because he found the reading studies in it interesting. His finger style technique RH is more like classical than many finger style jazz players. LH plays in position, seldom reaching or stretching. Joe Pass had actually very few idiosyncratic quirks of technique. He rarely hooked his LH thumb over, kept a very standard LH thumb position on the back of the neck, used all 4 LH fingers (not a 3-finger man), didn't prop his RH on the pinky or anchor anywhere, held the RH free per all the textbook discussions. Sat with the guitar more in a classical position than the typical right-thigh spot. Originally Posted by Jonah
I have always admired Joe Pass precisely because his technique and approach are quintessentially "correct" but what he does with them is exciting and explosive. When he seriously talks theory, he gets it right, precisely right. He was known to be an excellent sight-reader as well has having a splendid ear.
So I don't think this is a very accurate portrayal of Joe Pass approach to the guitar.
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He had no tutoring from a classical guitar teacher, but he says in an interview that his dad had him practice out of Nick Lucas and Carcassi books every day. As far as his roots, well, he did always say he was rooted in the popular music that was on the radio, and that he would go to the record store in town where they had listening booths and listen to Charlie Parker and most likely Django, since he cited him as an influence. As far as other roots, his family was from Sicily and supposedly he had uncles who played mandolins and such. I used to play top 40 gigs back in the 1970s in Johnstown, PA, where Joe was raised, and it almost certainly had no "jazz scene" to speak of, being an industrial town in the middle of Pennsylvania about 70 miles from Pittsburgh. Originally Posted by Jonah
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Probably that's because I look at it from much further perspective... his technique is very ergonic and beautiful but i do not see too much of a classical guitar in it.Almost everything said here turns out to be not quite right. Joe did indeed work through the Carcassi method the beginning, because he found the reading studies in it interesting. His finger style technique RH is more like classical than many finger style jazz players. LH plays in position, seldom reaching or stretching. Joe Pass had actually very few idiosyncratic quirks of technique. He rarely hooked his LH thumb over, kept a very standard LH thumb position on the back of the neck, used all 4 LH fingers (not a 3-finger man), didn't prop his RH on the pinky or anchor anywhere, held the RH free per all the textbook discussions. Sat with the guitar more in a classical position than the typical right-thigh spot.
I have always admired Joe Pass precisely because his technique and approach are quintessentially "correct" but what he does with them is exciting and explosive. When he seriously talks theory, he gets it right, precisely right. He was known to be an excellent sight-reader as well has having a splendid ear.
So I don't think this is a very accurate portrayal of Joe Pass approach to the guitar.
Of course if you compare his with Wes or Grant Green he looks closer to classical.. but still it is by far not that.
This kid Andre .. he looks and plays like he really had classical training.
Playing through Carcassi method does not make one a classical guitarist.
Besides to be honest I do not much care about the facts.. for me it is important what I hear, I describe what I hear in playing not what I read or heard about him or what he told. But in this case .. it is not even the case.
By the way... what do you mean about his sight-reading exactly? I am just wondering
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again it's not quite what I was talking about. Originally Posted by guitarbuddy
But nevermind... I accept it whatever.
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Who ever started the crazy shoot about Joe's right hand and whatever else is a fool,
and comparing some french youngster (and absolutely no disrespect to the young chap he is very good) but is a very very long way from Joe Pass, he does not have the language or the phrasing, sad OP cant hear it otherwise he would
never utter those words,
ha ha check Joe standing next to Clark Terry & Co playing Cherokee at 300knots, not just some Gypsy diatonic arpeggios.
But then not all hear, they think they do.
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would Joe tolerate todays Noise from todays audiences..he once told a noisy crowd in a small club to STFU...not exactly Joes words..but he told them he plays concert halls and needs silence...they shut up....GYPSY diatonic arpeggios lol
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I said that, and I stand by what I said. His left hand often played beyond his right hand. And in regards to comparing him to some young kid, I'd suggest you try to re-read what I wrote. The fact that you brought up the gypsy stuff again, tells me you are confused. Originally Posted by Durban
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Well, EH, I think you can color most of the room unconvinced.
That young man has technique but not, to my ears, depth. That will come if he perseveres, but he has some life to live first. I think that Pasquale Grasso is superior to the youngster, and I think Grasso has to live more and find depth too. Andy Brown, another young jazz guitar lion worth paying attention to, is in the same boat. Even one of my favorite young 'uns, Julian Lage, has a ways to go in the maturing process. Then look out, he'll really be something. Time is the leavening that matures artistsand it is a process that cannot be bypassed. This generation are not yet on par with Pass, Hall, Kessel, Montgomery, Van Eps, etc. Nor are they yet on par with Metheny, Bertoncini, Alden, Vignola, Kreisberg, Bruno, Martino, Bernstein, etc. But give them time, gigs, practice and they will become themselves and make their mark. But- if they are playing jazz- they will be playing in very different circumstances
Joe's playing matured through his travails- addiction, prison, rehab in a very controversial program, etc. He played with the elite of the elite of jazz and other genres and had their unreserved respect. He played bullshit records at the request of marketing departments and did those with aplomb. He played brilliant stuff under his own name. But he was unique, as all greats are. There is no reason to go out and do what Joe did again- study it, extract from it, learn from it, be inspired by it. Then play your own stuff. And don't fall into the trap of comparing yourself to anyone else as being better or worse- IME, I'm always worse than whomever I compare myself to... I'm cretainly not as good as the young'un in the OP!
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I have read the OP carefully, and listened to Antoine B on YouTube. The thing that strikes me is that anyone is making a comparison at all. These are really two very different players with very different styles. Same goes with Pasquale Grasso. I can't see how PG is "Joe Pass on steroids". They are playing very different things in very different ways. I love PG, but I also love Mississippi John Hurt. I wouldn't think to compare their playing just because they both played solo guitar.
This is doubly true of Antoine B. Listening to the comparison of Antoine B with Bill Evans someone linked to above you can hear that AB has machine like precision. He recorded an interesting classical interpretation of "We Will Meet Again", but it isn't at all like the Bill Evans version in feel or style. So, to answer the original questions IMO "yes". You are a bit off base comparing the two.
But you are not off base if the question is who is the most technically proficient solo player. PG has flawless technique. AB is also a monster player. JP was very inventive, fun to listen to, and a true original. But I don't think anyone thought of him as some kind of technical monster player. There are many players playing solo guitar, especially among classical players, that can play with precision and technique JP would likely have quickly acknowledged as superior to his own. That isn't what made JP great, or why people listened and were influenced by him.
So if the question is "do these players surpass Joe Pass technically?" Sure. So does Ana Vidovic and countless others. It is a bit like asking if there were better baseball players than Michael Jordan.
If the questions is, "do these people play in the style Joe Pass pioneered better than Joe Pass?" The answer to me is a resounding "no."
Heck, fellow forumite Jonathan Stout just released an album that really and truly is in the style pioneered by JP. If you want a true comparison, download his album. It's a damn good album. I could offer some critiques, but I find it is in my rotation just as much as "Blues for Fred" or "Virtuoso". Better than Joe? No. But at least he is playing basketball.
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Seeing mention of Andy Brown, I have been playing his 'Soloist' recording a lot recently. Anyone who likes solo jazz guitar should give it a try, it's excellent. Good value too, I was playing it in the car going home from work and it kept playing for 2 whole trips, which is a long time!
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I bet by the time Joe did Virtuoso he was old enough to be Boyer's dad at the age he is now. Something to consider, but I'm with those who say it's a little apples and oranges for comparison.
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He often played hammer-ons and pull-offs, but none of us knows whether that was because his right hand couldn't keep up or whether it was deliberate articulations, or a combination of the two. Only Joe P knew that. Otherwise, however he got to the notes he got to them without breaking time, playing clams, or disrupting the flow of polyphonic ideas. Originally Posted by eh6794-2.0
I wonder how much you've really listened to and observed him. There's a note of condescension in your assessment that strikes me as out of line with the reality of how proficient Joe P was. I saw him perform solo up close in a small club. No technical nitpicks came to mind.
John
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One thing about Joe Pass, and even moreso about Wes, is that their appeal went beyond guitar players and even beyond people who were wild about jazz guitar.
They both came from an era when it was assumed that musicians were there to entertain the audience. This doesn't have to mean "lowest common denominator." (There are audiences and then there are audiences...) But it tends to mean strong rhythm, good tunes, some razzle dazzle, some playfulness, and never lettin' 'em see you sweat.
People wanted to hear THEM, not necessarily a jazz guitar. (We don't listen to Bird because he played the alto sax but because he played Bird.) In this sense, Pass may be thought of as a singer. You like to hear him put his stamp on a tune.
We guitarists focus on the guitar playing. It's our obsession. But Joe focused on the music and I think that's why his appeal was broader than that of most jazz gutiarists. (Except Wes and Charlie Christian, who appealed to damn near everyone, and deservedly so, they were giants.)
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Yes I saw him up close like that several times at Ronnie Scotts. Don't recall him ever making any slips or mistakes, it was flawless, yet at the same time it was obviously unrehearsed. He would start by playing several tunes back-to-back, then he would try to tell the audience what he'd played. But he always had to ask us what the first couple of tunes were, because he couldn't remember what he'd played! Proof that it was all spontaneous. Originally Posted by John A.
I asked him once why that was, and he said it was because he was so focused and concentrating on the tune he was playing 'in the moment' that he lost all recollection of what he'd played before that tune.
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That's an interesting to know...That hasn't been my experience with people I know. They maybe know Wes, if just from the more commercial stuff. But Joe remains someone who seems to be only appreciated by the real jazz fans I know...but I'm a bit younger than the crowd that would have been Joe's contemporaries. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
One thing I do know is Joe (like Wes) definitely transcended the instrument in the fact that he's appreciated and held in high regard by non-guitar playing jazz musicians. In fact, some guys I know, I think the only 3 guitar players they know are Wes, Joe, and Metheny
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And we're not sure about Metheny :-)
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Anyone know that youtube blogger Bob Reynolds? He's a pro jazz sax player and said Metheny is one of his major influences and transcribes him. I thought that was really interesting Originally Posted by ragman1
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