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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    And we're not sure about Metheny :-)
    Anyone know that youtube blogger Bob Reynolds? He's a pro jazz sax player and said Metheny is one of his major influences and transcribes him. I thought that was really interesting
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Probably that's because I look at it from much further perspective... his technique is very ergonic and beautiful but i do not see too much of a classical guitar in it.
    Of course if you compare his with Wes or Grant Green he looks closer to classical.. but still it is by far not that.

    This kid Andre .. he looks and plays like he really had classical training.

    Playing through Carcassi method does not make one a classical guitarist.

    Besides to be honest I do not much care about the facts.. for me it is important what I hear, I describe what I hear in playing not what I read or heard about him or what he told. But in this case .. it is not even the case.


    By the way... what do you mean about his sight-reading exactly? I am just wondering
    I wasn't saying he was a classical player. You'd said there was no classical in his technique, and I was noting that there were some pointers. I don't care whether he's a classical player or not, his technique is much more of a clean, taught, formal technique than most jazz players.

    Facts do matter when you make claims based on them.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara View Post
    Well, EH, I think you can color most of the room unconvinced.

    That young man has technique but not, to my ears, depth. That will come if he perseveres, but he has some life to live first. I think that Pasquale Grasso is superior to the youngster, and I think Grasso has to live more and find depth too. Andy Brown, another young jazz guitar lion worth paying attention to, is in the same boat. Even one of my favorite young 'uns, Julian Lage, has a ways to go in the maturing process. Then look out, he'll really be something. Time is the leavening that matures artistsand it is a process that cannot be bypassed. This generation are not yet on par with Pass, Hall, Kessel, Montgomery, Van Eps, etc. Nor are they yet on par with Metheny, Bertoncini, Alden, Vignola, Kreisberg, Bruno, Martino, Bernstein, etc. But give them time, gigs, practice and they will become themselves and make their mark. But- if they are playing jazz- they will be playing in very different circumstances

    Joe's playing matured through his travails- addiction, prison, rehab in a very controversial program, etc. He played with the elite of the elite of jazz and other genres and had their unreserved respect. He played bullshit records at the request of marketing departments and did those with aplomb. He played brilliant stuff under his own name. But he was unique, as all greats are. There is no reason to go out and do what Joe did again- study it, extract from it, learn from it, be inspired by it. Then play your own stuff. And don't fall into the trap of comparing yourself to anyone else as being better or worse- IME, I'm always worse than whomever I compare myself to... I'm cretainly not as good as the young'un in the OP!
    Well said!
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  4. #104
    Concerning Joe's reading ability, he stated that his sight reading only started to get good when he was in his mid 40s. And the notion that he didn't know theory seems wrong. He may not have thought in theoretical terms when he was playing but he knew theory well.
    No one that doesn't know theory can play the way he did or with the people he did.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    I have read the OP carefully, and listened to Antoine B on YouTube. The thing that strikes me is that anyone is making a comparison at all. These are really two very different players with very different styles. Same goes with Pasquale Grasso. I can't see how PG is "Joe Pass on steroids". They are playing very different things in very different ways. I love PG, but I also love Mississippi John Hurt. I wouldn't think to compare their playing just because they both played solo guitar.

    This is doubly true of Antoine B. Listening to the comparison of Antoine B with Bill Evans someone linked to above you can hear that AB has machine like precision. He recorded an interesting classical interpretation of "We Will Meet Again", but it isn't at all like the Bill Evans version in feel or style. So, to answer the original questions IMO "yes". You are a bit off base comparing the two.

    But you are not off base if the question is who is the most technically proficient solo player. PG has flawless technique. AB is also a monster player. JP was very inventive, fun to listen to, and a true original. But I don't think anyone thought of him as some kind of technical monster player. There are many players playing solo guitar, especially among classical players, that can play with precision and technique JP would likely have quickly acknowledged as superior to his own. That isn't what made JP great, or why people listened and were influenced by him.

    So if the question is "do these players surpass Joe Pass technically?" Sure. So does Ana Vidovic and countless others. It is a bit like asking if there were better baseball players than Michael Jordan.

    If the questions is, "do these people play in the style Joe Pass pioneered better than Joe Pass?" The answer to me is a resounding "no."

    Heck, fellow forumite Jonathan Stout just released an album that really and truly is in the style pioneered by JP. If you want a true comparison, download his album. It's a damn good album. I could offer some critiques, but I find it is in my rotation just as much as "Blues for Fred" or "Virtuoso". Better than Joe? No. But at least he is playing basketball.
    I have since edited my original comment (with stars and its own paragraph), but the comparison was between guitarists who are fast enough to fill in the space with a separate rhythm melody (or something like that), which is the style that Joe invented or made popular.

    I made a point to define exactly what I was talking about so people understood what I was comparing; most people ignored that.

  6. #106
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    Don't forget that this whole technique of playing solo jazz arrangements, developed enough to be able to hold an audience for a whole concert, this whole style of playing was basically developed and popularized by Joe Pass. Of course all good players could play solo numbers, but Joe's voice IS this chapter of the jazz guitar language, just as Wes is octaves, Martino a certain line aesthetic, Grant Green the gospel-blues acid jazz thing and so on.

    I really enjoy these players mentioned on this thread, i think they are great and inspiring to listen to (thanks youtube ), but technique is just a means to an end. Joe Pass was a giant, i don't think there was something unaccomplished in his technique that was holding his musical ideas back. You can't look for a classical players right hand technique on a jazz musician, it is irrelevant for most. Say Russell Malone,many times he plays arpeggios with only the thumb and first finger, horrible technique with classical standards, yet he plays what he wants perfectly, with impeccable musicianship and sound, so i wouldn't call his technique week or bad, just accomplished.

    If i were to mention players that i think really took the Pass thing one step further they would be Tuck Andress and Charlie Hunter.. Mick Goodrick is also a total monster at that if you ever catch him live in a drumless trio setting, mixing bass, voicings and percussion. Many great players these days develop that style of playing... the Joe Pass style!!

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by eh6794-2.0 View Post
    I have since edited my original comment (with stars and its own paragraph), but the comparison was between guitarists who are fast enough to fill in the space with a separate rhythm melody (or something like that), which is the style that Joe invented or made popular.

    I made a point to define exactly what I was talking about so people understood what I was comparing; most people ignored that.

    I think that explains the reaction people had. I don't think many of us think of Joe Pass as a guitarist "whose hands are fast enough to fill in the space and create a second melody with the rhythm". Speed isn't really what set Joe appart, nor is speed an integral issue in his style. It isn't that people are not understanding you, it is that they disagree with your central premise.

    To me what defines Joe Pass was his ability to take orchestral pop tunes of his youth and create fun, IMPROVISED, solo guitar performances from them. And not just do it, but do it so well he could fill concert halls with those performances. His performances were so compelling that they stood on their own even if you had never heard the original pop tune. If Antoine Boyer took pop tunes from the 90's and made spontaneous, appealing, toe tapping, fun classical guitar performances from them that were popular entirely apart from the original grunge recordings then the comparison might make more sense to people.

    Focusing on Joe Pass' speed is a bit like saying that Michael Jordan's style is that he could "jump really high when dunking a ball". If that is what you think makes Michael Jordan who he was as a player, it makes perfect sense to compare him to other basketball players who can jump really high. Wilt Chamberlain and Darrell Griffith both could out jump Michael Jordan, but you aren't going to get a lot of buy-in to the notion that Darrell Griffith was a "better" basketball player because he could jump higher.

  8. #108
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    Anyone here who thinks Joe Pass couldn't play fast needs to spend more time studying the work of Joe Pass (and probably also needs to spend more time improving their own playing) rather than posting absurd proclamations on an Internet forum.
    _____________________________________________
    "When the chord changes, you should change" Joe Pass

  9. #109
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    Whoa Nellie! I had to slow down the video just to make sure I didn't miss any notes, it didn't help.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    You'd said there was no classical in his technique
    WHAT?

    Who said that? Is he asleep?

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger View Post
    Anyone here who thinks Joe Pass couldn't play fast
    WHAT?

    Who thinks that? Are they asleep?


    We're not doing very well today, are we!

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    I think that explains the reaction people had. I don't think many of us think of Joe Pass as a guitarist "whose hands are fast enough to fill in the space and create a second melody with the rhythm". Speed isn't really what set Joe appart, nor is speed an integral issue in his style. It isn't that people are not understanding you, it is that they disagree with your central premise.

    To me what defines Joe Pass was his ability to take orchestral pop tunes of his youth and create fun, IMPROVISED, solo guitar performances from them. And not just do it, but do it so well he could fill concert halls with those performances. His performances were so compelling that they stood on their own even if you had never heard the original pop tune. If Antoine Boyer took pop tunes from the 90's and made spontaneous, appealing, toe tapping, fun classical guitar performances from them that were popular entirely apart from the original grunge recordings then the comparison might make more sense to people.

    Focusing on Joe Pass' speed is a bit like saying that Michael Jordan's style is that he could "jump really high when dunking a ball". If that is what you think makes Michael Jordan who he was as a player, it makes perfect sense to compare him to other basketball players who can jump really high. Wilt Chamberlain and Darrell Griffith both could out jump Michael Jordan, but you aren't going to get a lot of buy-in to the notion that Darrell Griffith was a "better" basketball player because he could jump higher.
    You have to be fast to make the changes he made and to make the rhythm melodies. That is how I defined my argument.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger View Post
    Anyone here who thinks Joe Pass couldn't play fast needs to spend more time studying the work of Joe Pass (and probably also needs to spend more time improving their own playing) rather than posting absurd proclamations on an Internet forum.
    What about NHOP? He's dancing backwards and in heels!
    Build bridges, not walls.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    WHAT?

    Who said that? Is he asleep?
    That was "Jonah" above, who opined, "...you see maybe main feature of his playing is ecxactly that he has NO classical guitar backgroud."

    I don't say Joe Pass was a "classical" guitarist but he certainly had a bit of it in his background. Playing through Carcassi... he said in an interview (cited above) that he found Carcassi's material more interesting than Nick Lucas. When he traveled with the "Guitar Summit" (I think that was what it was called) the three guitarists would often switch genres. Joe would play classical, Paco Pena would play whatever you call Leo Kottke's style, and Leo would play jazz which he always said came out sounding like the "Woody Woodpecker" theme song. But Joe could handle the classical pieces easily, even improvising on them on the fly.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    That was "Jonah" above, who opined, "...you see maybe main feature of his playing is ecxactly that he has NO classical guitar backgroud."
    Whoops, I thought he was talking about Antoine Boyer. Which is very silly of me because he also said further down:

    This kid Andre .. he looks and plays like he really had classical training.
    Oh dear, my mistake. Great apologies to Jonah and yourself

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Whoops, I thought he was talking about Antoine Boyer. Which is very silly of me because he also said further down:



    Oh dear, my mistake. Great apologies to Jonah and yourself
    Utterly unnecessary, sir.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    Anyone know that youtube blogger Bob Reynolds? He's a pro jazz sax player and said Metheny is one of his major influences and transcribes him. I thought that was really interesting
    I've watched him a few times in the past but I didn't know about Metheny. Thanks for that.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    Utterly unnecessary, sir.
    But I'm BRITISH** and we never pass up an opportunity to apologise!

    ** Actually I'm not really but it doesn't matter :-)

  19. #119
    Just came across this wonderful Amazon customer review for Joe’s album ‘Meditation’:

    “It’s ok but I don’t find it very relaxing for meditation.”

  20. #120
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    Yep Joe is just the Taj Mahal of guitarists, the Rolls-Royce, the Michael Jordan...

    What I find interesting is that I'm used to his Virtuoso stuff and his playing with Ella, as well as other quartets, etc. However, I may find myself listening to some random jazz playlist on Spotify or Google Play, and a song comes on that's so good and seems to be in the style of Johnny Smith, or Barney Kessel, or Pat Martino, and it's Joe!

    He could play in so many different styles, at least in the jazz realm. With or without a pick.

    I will quibble a little about the classical...while I have heard his nylon string album Unforgettable and have no doubt he could play some of the repertoire, I really doubt he could play the higher-level stuff with any facility, because it is so demanding of technique and repetitive study. (Classical players rarely make good jazz players either, but that's a different issue.) I recall a video of him playing with John Williams I think where it was clear they were best in their respective genres. Someone can prove me wrong if they have a recording.

    I've also never seen Joe shred a heavily distorted Les Paul, but hey, that's to be expected.
    “Without music, life would be a mistake”--Friedrich Nietzsche

    Current lineup: Gibson ES-135 ('02), Peerless Sunset, Harmony Brilliant Cutaway ('64), Godin 5th Avenue, Alvarez AC60 A/E classical, Kay K37 ('56), Fender Squier VM Jazz bass, several ukes. Amps: Fishman Artist, Fender SCXD, Pignose 7-100.

  21. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff View Post
    I've also never seen Joe shred a heavily distorted Les Paul, but hey, that's to be expected.
    He played a guitar synth once. About 1 minute in gets some weird sounds:


  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff View Post
    Yep Joe is just the Taj Mahal of guitarists, the Rolls-Royce, the Michael Jordan...

    What I find interesting is that I'm used to his Virtuoso stuff and his playing with Ella, as well as other quartets, etc. However, I may find myself listening to some random jazz playlist on Spotify or Google Play, and a song comes on that's so good and seems to be in the style of Johnny Smith, or Barney Kessel, or Pat Martino, and it's Joe!

    He could play in so many different styles, at least in the jazz realm. With or without a pick.

    I will quibble a little about the classical...while I have heard his nylon string album Unforgettable and have no doubt he could play some of the repertoire, I really doubt he could play the higher-level stuff with any facility, because it is so demanding of technique and repetitive study. (Classical players rarely make good jazz players either, but that's a different issue.) I recall a video of him playing with John Williams I think where it was clear they were best in their respective genres. Someone can prove me wrong if they have a recording.

    I've also never seen Joe shred a heavily distorted Les Paul, but hey, that's to be expected.
    I dunno... there's this... admittedly his composition, but, damn...

    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  23. #123
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    Then there is this wonderful exchange:

    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  24. #124
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    Joe Pass and Carol Kaye, "Slick Cat"

    This is about as close to fusion / rock as Joe ever got.

    Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
    Groucho Marx

  25. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff View Post

    I've also never seen Joe shred a heavily distorted Les Paul, but hey, that's to be expected.
    He did use some overdrive here at 1 min 30 !


  26. #126
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    when the great joe pass was in rehab in the early 60's...and upon his release...he played many guitars that don't quite fit his image...fender jazzmasters (25.5 scale)...fender jaguar (24" ish scale.. ala byrdland)..he did albums/sessions on acoustic 12 string!!!...whatever means needed

    the man could make a cardboard ukulele sound good

    cheers

  27. #127
    Thought that overdrive was great!

  28. #128
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    An Evening with Joe Pass - 1 hour and 26 minutes on youtube. Check it out, most of us will get ideas for practice, or just sit back and listen!

  29. #129
    Joe Pass After 25 Years-joe-333-jpg

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namelyguitar View Post
    An Evening with Joe Pass - 1 hour and 26 minutes on youtube. Check it out, most of us will get ideas for practice, or just sit back and listen!
    Is that the one where you see him arrive for the gig and rehearse with the band? The one where Don Mock interviews him about his musical background? That's a treasure trove!
    Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
    Groucho Marx

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    Then there is this wonderful exchange:

    It's nice.. but this Chaconne thig has nothing to do neither with classical guitar nor with classical music (except that Williams holds a classical guitar). JW plays a few basic chords (which could be anything anywhere), Joe plays lines quite in his style over these simple chords.

  32. #132
    i tried the BB JOE soloing this morning on Tangerine... very Passian ..i know some you folk would like to kill me for harking on about BB...does it endorse joes soloing....nothing ever will but it has its moments..one the best threads ive ever read ..thanks all

  33. #133
    Yeah this thread has put me on a Joe kick, I have a couple of the Virtuosos but I felt like getting another solo set with a better guitar sound, so just purchased ‘Meditation’ which sounds good.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    It's nice.. but this Chaconne thig has nothing to do neither with classical guitar nor with classical music (except that Williams holds a classical guitar). JW plays a few basic chords (which could be anything anywhere), Joe plays lines quite in his style over these simple chords.
    Yes, and Jascha Haifetz playing the violin is just the application of the outside of a horse to the inside of a cat.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  35. #135
    Joe Pass is a jazz guitar master.


  36. #136
    I recall one of Joe's instructional videos where he said something like that it's not about playing "hard things" or "fast things" to impress other players; it's about making music. That was a profound statement that stuck with me. As far as speed, one of the salient aspects of JP's style, at least to my ear, is how well he could use slurs via hammer and pull offs to tie lines together. I prefer that to the every-note-is-picked articulation of other players (McLaughlin comes to mind).

  37. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyV View Post
    I recall one of Joe's instructional videos where he said something like that it's not about playing "hard things" or "fast things" to impress other players; it's about making music.
    I've been shouting that for years.

    Of course, the difference is that Joe could play embarrassingly fast and I can't :-)

  38. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I've been shouting that for years.

    Of course, the difference is that Joe could play embarrassingly fast and I can't :-)
    and people who play embarrassingly are half way there!
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  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    Is that the one where you see him arrive for the gig and rehearse with the band? The one where Don Mock interviews him about his musical background? That's a treasure trove!
    That's the one!

  40. #140
    So it turns out, Antoine is playing at my college in February. I believe it is a Gypsy Jazz set. If anybody lives in the Sacramento/Folsom area, and you want to go, let me know (I get a student discount).

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