The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    ... and thanks to Beaumont for Tisiji, and Dave B for posting Ask the Ages again. I finally listened to the whole thing.

    I missed a lot of things I guess. By late 70's I became tired of jazz and fusion and found my way into punk and 'art rock'. Spent the 80's in NYC and still missed a lot of good stuff. By then it seemed the only thing around was Frith or Frissell at the Knitting Factory. In my neighbourhood anyway. By the time of Ask the Ages I was limping back to Canada to recover from a decade of NY.

    Thanks to the forum my ears are re-opened!!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    bern nix was ornettes guitar player ...james blood ulmer too.. pete cosey played with miles...sharrock worshiped bird, trane and miles

    of the newer "out" guys, check out tashi dorji & anthony pirog

    cheers

    ps- closest mclauglin got to pure trane was with tony williams lifetime..with the great larry young on organ...they even covered tranes tune-big nick

    Last edited by neatomic; 12-29-2018 at 06:02 PM. Reason: ps-

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by arielcee
    Linc Chamberland.
    Here he is with Dave Liebman.

    The man could play the guitar.
    I bought that LC vinyl when it first came out, and admired his super chops, but his lines just made no sense to me.
    Every few years I play it again to see if maybe I'm missing something, but it's the same result.
    Just sounds like a bunch of fast scale/mode playing with no musical sense to it.
    Maybe I'll listen to it today and LC will make sense to me. Maybe not.

  5. #29

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    Peter Sprague is another Trane dude, but I don't know about the rage part.

  6. #30
    Just a mention. I said Coltrane and Coleman, because i was listening them at the momment i wrote the thread, but could be any saxophone player similar to them.

    Im just looking guitar players with a phrase style of those kind of saxophone players, and the ambient, or any other brass wind instrument.

    About the sound, just not interesting in heavy gain distortion sounds, or the well known chorus jazz sound, just normal clean guitar (archtop, or anything good, but not a stratocaster which sounds too electric), and could be with overdrive, but not that heavy "bizarre" distortion sound; not many jazz players use low gain overdrive, hu ? Hard to find fine overdrive sounds in jazz.

  7. #31

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    .....makes me wonder why no one in this thread has mentioned Pat Martino.......

  8. #32

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    ...Larry Coryell...

  9. #33

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    I don't mean to be lazy, but so far in these clips I don't hear anything that blows me away for a CD or download to iTunes purchase. I hear a lot of other instrumentalists playing while the guitarist does little. (Youtube clips aren't always the best showcase, I'll admit).

    One thing about Johnny Mac, he can virtuosically play his ass off for an extended period.

    So - which are the top albums of these badass mofos that I can download to listen to on my 16 speaker surround sound car audio while taking my life into my hands twice each day to and from work?

    Please.

  10. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    I don't mean to be lazy, but so far in these clips I don't hear anything that blows me away for a CD or download to iTunes purchase. I hear a lot of other instrumentalists playing while the guitarist does little. (Youtube clips aren't always the best showcase, I'll admit).

    One thing about Johnny Mac, he can virtuosically play his ass off for an extended period.

    So - which are the top albums of these badass mofos that I can download to listen to on my 16 speaker surround sound car audio while taking my life into my hands twice each day to and from work?

    Please.
    Ive listened every name mentioned in this topic, and so far, at least for my like, Pat Martino its the best, im just starting to listen him right now, I listened a bit of his colaborations, and started to listen his albums as leader (skipping some things, i pay more attention to the original compositions than the other tunes), right now im listening "The return" (1987, a live album), seems Pat Martino had an aneurysm and this is his first album after that, sounds very good, great indeed, Martino have great licks and tone, before this album he made some bit "psychodelic" albums ("Starbright" and "Joyous lake", didnt like me). Going to continue listen him. See if The return likes you.

  11. #35

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    doesn't surprise me that pat martino would resonate with you... or anyone!..incredible life & player!... genius idiosyncratic guitarist...it either makes sense or it doesn't...i always "got" him!.....thankfully..tho his tone/recorded sound often left me dry..gibby pat martino guitar was one of my faves ever..tho very heavy weight wise...

    cheers

  12. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    doesn't surprise me that pat martino would resonate with you... or anyone!..incredible life & player!... genius idiosyncratic guitarist...it either makes sense or it doesn't...i always "got" him!.....thankfully..tho his tone/recorded sound often left me dry..gibby pat martino guitar was one of my faves ever..tho very heavy weight wise...

    cheers
    First time im listening him with attention (and listening jazz in general with attention), i really like Martino, The return is great album, im listening Stone Blue now.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by man-argentina
    . . . could be any saxophone player similar to them. Im just looking guitar players with a phrase style of those kind of saxophone players. . .
    This seems to be hard for guitar players. I love all these guys, including Pat, but we have a tendency to go on and on. Sometimes I feel like I'm listening to a dog chasing it's tail. It's all too easy to get into some tight little pattern, run it over and over trying to build tension....maybe shift it around the fretboard a little. I'm all too guilty of it myself and have been fighting that for decades. Seems hard for us to allow a bit of space.

    I love watching Trane when he's in a contemplative mood. He blows a phrase, takes a breath, seems to think about what he just said and almost decides what to add to the statement. Same with Miles through all his incarnations.

    On the other hand horn players can fall into the trap as well. I saw a well known and highly respected hard bop guy and I felt like I was getting mugged by his sheets of sound. It kinda gave me a head-ache before long, and I was glad when it was over. I think it's likely there was some coke involved...

    Saw Ornette a couple times. There's a certain kind of joy there. Can't remember if it was Blackwell or Higgins, but I still remember the big smile on the drummer's face from beginning to end. We're generally a pretty serious bunch for some reason.

  14. #38

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    It can be a vanishingly thin line between ' sheets of sound' and ' tiresome fret-wanking ' - I don't know if the Coltrane approach translates well to the guitar .

    Thumbs up for " Extrapolation " , McLaughlin's finest 45 minutes . He should have stuck to playing with English oddball jazzers like John Surman and Tony Oxley .

    I've never heard of Linc Chamberland before , that's awesome .

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pycroft
    It can be a vanishingly thin line between ' sheets of sound' and ' tiresome fret-wanking ' - I don't know if the Coltrane approach translates well to the guitar .
    For what it's worth, there were a lot of his own listeners who thought Trane's approach didn't apply to sax either. We'd be listening to his early music, then later stuff, and the consensus would be: " I already knew he could play - -so what's all this ?? " We all knew, sure as anything, there was something going on, but couldn't figure what it was.
    Then I'd do the same thing listening Pat Martino and come to the same conclusion.

    That was why I mentioned PM's name in this thread, and wondered why no one else had - - I think there are more than a few similarities to their music, their approaches, their abilities, and how they were viewed.

    Just MHO

  16. #40

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    If you're looking for "violence" on the guitar, I'd recommend Derek Bailey.

    Other than that, the question of "who plays like Trane or Ornette?" forces you to face the question of how exactly do they play, and what is the essence of that? Not an easy question.

    I think if you were to ask Miles Davis which guitarist best captures the essence of Trane, he'd say Jimi Hendrix. If you were to ask Trane, he'd say Wes. If Wes and Jimi had a baby, he'd be Adam Rogers, so I'll go with that. If you need something a bit more violent, maybe Oz Noy.
    John

  17. #41

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    I'm also surprised no one mentioned Canadian Nelson Symonds. Supposedly Coltrane actually asked him to join the band but he for whatever reason didn't want to.


  18. #42

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    I saw James Blood Ulmer back in the early 80's. He was a force of nature--took all the ideas of Ornette's "harmelodics" and threw in some heavy blues/funk. I was a couple of feet from the stage, close enough to get his sweat on me. And he sweat a lot for a jazz guy.

    I really dug his work at that time.

    After the mid-80's he went a lot lower profile. Some of his later albums are very close to Howlin' Wolf blues material, which is OK, but there are already enough of those guys out there--just not that interesting to me.

    He's 79 now--not sure how active he is in the music scene.

  19. #43

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    I saw Ulmer in 1985 at the Club Lingerie on Sunset Blvd in LA. One of the best shows I've ever seen. With Amin Ali on bass and Calvin Weston on drums. I was with some people who weren't real jazz or avant garde types but even they were completely blown away. I've since scoured youtube but haven't found anything on the level of what I heard at that gig.

  20. #44
    I’ve always felt that jazz guitarists often had a collective obsession with clean playing that restricted their ability to rage and sound wild. No one for example, ever seems have slammed their pick across a string the way Monk slammed his fingers into the piano keys. No one ever pushed notes to the point where they sound like they are going to burst out of their musicality and become living bird calls like Dolphy. Jazz guitar is always very beautiful and not particularly abrasive and intense. This certainly makes for very nice ballads. I think often ballads sound much nicer with a guitar than piano. Especially when backing up a singer the way Kessel did with Julie London. There’s a great Chet Baker/Burrell duet called “You’re Mine You.” Stunning guitar sound. But yeah, sweetness in jazz is its strong point. As a guitarist, it is a frustrating limitation. Blues guitar is where the instrument has excelled at raging. I love it. But in that case, the harmonic simplicity and simplicity of form leaves me wanting more. To the extent that jazz guitar ever did rage, it was often in recordings that border on not really being jazz. Check out Kessel’s solo on “The Peanut Vendor.” Its pretty raging and I love it, but its hardly pushing the boundaries of modern jazz harmonically or compositionally. Its essentially a commercial jazz recording. I always thought Kessel was really good at raging when he wanted to be and wished he’d gone more often in that direction. Kenny Burrell’s solo on Gil Evans version of “Time of the Barracudas” is kind of raging, but it almost has more to do with the fact that Elvin Jones is playing like a maniac behind him on the drums. Also, absolutely has a listen to George Benson on "The Cooker." Raging! But again, its almost a soul blues number rather than jazz.


    As far as some of the more post-modern (70s and beyond) guitarists go….I don’t know….even when they are pushing boundaries it all feels quite clinical, academic, and technique obsessed at the expense of soul to me.

  21. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by mrcee
    I'm also surprised no one mentioned Canadian Nelson Symonds. Supposedly Coltrane actually asked him to join the band but he for whatever reason didn't want to.

    Wow this is really great. Feel like I once checked this guy out because Ed Bickert mentioned him in an interview, but what I found at the time wasn't as interesting as this, so never looked back in on him. Very cool.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by VanEpsInDeChirico
    Wow this is really great. Feel like I once checked this guy out because Ed Bickert mentioned him in an interview, but what I found at the time wasn't as interesting as this, so never looked back in on him. Very cool.
    Wes was a Symonds fan as well!

  23. #47

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    Lee Ranaldo, Nels Cline, Thurston Moore and Mary Halvorson have all spoken of Coltrane as an influence or have covered his work.

  24. #48

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    Bern Nix, played guitar in many of Ornette's Prime Time lineups.
    About two years ago, he was part of the band preparing a tribute show
    to electric Ornette music presented at Lincoln Center and had attended a rehearsal the day before he tragically died.

    Bern Nix, Guitarist Steeped in Ornette Coleman's Harmolodic Language, Dies at 69 | WBGO

  25. #49

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    I have to say I have seen James Blood Ulmer 5-6 times and I am always amazed at moments where he really shines. He has that wah thing down.

    I also want to add that there are a few but not so many recording of Jimi Hendrix that make me think yeah he was like that. I was torn to adding this to the current Hendrix thread but decided there was a bit of hate going on in that thread and it was too nice a recording to waste there. I had this album at one point and I completely wore it out - I may buy it again.
    - oh yeah and Mary Halvorson.
    "Jimi Hendrix at his best vol 1.

  26. #50

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    djg, thanks for "Equinox" (Coltrane) - Tisziji, Hicks, Davis, Idris. Love it.