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  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by rsclosson View Post
    I respectfully have to disagree with his (and others’) assessment of Ringo Starr. Maybe he had problems playing his stuff, but his drumming with the Beatles was outstanding.
    When the Beatles cut "Love Me Do" which became their first big hit, it required 15 takes. On the playback, everyone agreed the drums were bad. George Martin and Ron Richards, another producer type, conferred and "put in a call to Kenny Clair 'probably the top session drummer at the time...." His background was big band...but it turned out that Clair was unavailable, so a week later, they got "Andy White, who performed with Vic Lewis' orchestra. Richards said "I knew he (White) could play the beat I was looking for..." (pp. 352-3, The Beatles, Bob Spitz). Ringo played tambourine.

    I think Ringo was an OK drummer, and he grew up listening to a lot of jazz, and was an excellent dancer to swing music. So, in my book, that is all in his favor.

    Quincy Jones played trumpet beside Clifford Brown, for goodness sakes, in Lionel Hampton's Big Band. He got a full music scholarship to Univ. of Washington, but left for Berkelee, and wrote charts for the Basie Band, among others. I think any arranger for that kind of stuff, has to have very advanced musical understanding.

    As far as his rock n' roll background, he was born in 1933, and grew up listening to Louis Jordan, and Earl Bostic and jump bands, and rhythm n' blues music. He was around when Ike Turner cut "Rocket 88" so you can bet he knew this type of music inside and out.

    As a sophisticated arranger, I don't think most rock n' roll, would have held much interest for him. In the 60's, he steadily grew more pop-oriented.

    Maybe he's not warm and fuzzy as a personality, but its hard to argue with Q's musical ability.

  2. #92
    Quincy is the overseer of maintaining the corporate merger of rap and R&B. He didn't ask for the job and I don't envy his position.

  3. #93
    Listen to the Mercury album from the late 50s where Louis Jordan recut a bunch of his classic tunes with great jazz players including Mickey Baker. Quincy produced it.


  4. #94
    While I am not interested in another debate about Ringo's drumming, I will say that one miss played song out of the Beatles' vast catalog is not bad. I have read what many have said about Ringo including some excellent and highly respected drummers, and they all agree that in his own way, Mr Starkey was and is an outstanding drummer. Does he have the chops of Keith Moon or Buddy Rich? Of course not. Could he play with Dave Brubeck? Probably not, but what he did with the Beatles and his own bands are great examples of solid no frills percussion.

    (And yes, I remember the Beatles' quip that he wasn't even the best drummer in the band. They later admitted it was part of their obtuse humor, And Sir Paul McCartney had lots of good things to say about his drumming when he inducted him to the rr hall of fame.)

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenwave77 View Post
    When the Beatles cut "Love Me Do" which became their first big hit, it required 15 takes. On the playback, everyone agreed the drums were bad. George Martin and Ron Richards, another producer type, conferred and "put in a call to Kenny Clair 'probably the top session drummer at the time...." His background was big band...but it turned out that Clair was unavailable, so a week later, they got "Andy White, who performed with Vic Lewis' orchestra. Richards said "I knew he (White) could play the beat I was looking for..." (pp. 352-3, The Beatles, Bob Spitz). Ringo played tambourine.

    I think Ringo was an OK drummer, and he grew up listening to a lot of jazz, and was an excellent dancer to swing music. So, in my book, that is all in his favor.

    Quincy Jones played trumpet beside Clifford Brown, for goodness sakes, in Lionel Hampton's Big Band. He got a full music scholarship to Univ. of Washington, but left for Berkelee, and wrote charts for the Basie Band, among others. I think any arranger for that kind of stuff, has to have very advanced musical understanding.

    As far as his rock n' roll background, he was born in 1933, and grew up listening to Louis Jordan, and Earl Bostic and jump bands, and rhythm n' blues music. He was around when Ike Turner cut "Rocket 88" so you can bet he knew this type of music inside and out.

    As a sophisticated arranger, I don't think most rock n' roll, would have held much interest for him. In the 60's, he steadily grew more pop-oriented.

    Maybe he's not warm and fuzzy as a personality, but its hard to argue with Q's musical ability.
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  5. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by mrcee View Post
    Listen to the Mercury album from the late 50s where Louis Jordan recut a bunch of his classic tunes with great jazz players including Mickey Baker. Quincy produced it.

    Really good stuff. Louis Jordan and T-Bone Walker are kind of on the cusp between rock n' roll, and jazz. T-Bone's bends are usually smaller (1/2 step or quarter) than later guys, like BB King. Also, the swing feel is very much there.

    I think later rock n' roll started playing much more straight time. To me, this makes a lot of it less interesting.

    Keith Wyatt had an interesting little bit about Chuck Berry playing with the Chess Record guys, who were basically more jazz like in feeling.


  6. #96
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
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    So Cal USA
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    222
    I think later rock n' roll started playing much more straight time. To me, this makes a lot of it less interesting.

    ***

    While I agree with this the main reason rock n' roll and the blues is less interesting is the way too basic harmonic structure. Note that early jazz also was based on very basic rhythms. E.g. adding Afro-Cuban and Latin rhythms made jazz a lot more interesting.

  7. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by mrcee View Post
    Listen to the Mercury album from the late 50s where Louis Jordan recut a bunch of his classic tunes with great jazz players including Mickey Baker. Quincy produced it.

    Louis Jordan is my favorite, his brand of R&B, or blues, or swing, whatever you wanna call it, is the style I'm after.

    So Quincy did a great job there. He's good at what he's doing, I get it. But he's not immune to saying dumb things apparently.

    And to say what he did about Ringo or Paul McCartney is undoubtedly dumb IMO. There is no merit to it.

  8. #98
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Kinshasa, Congo
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    302
    I stand with Q

    Qunicy Jones Interview-img_0977-jpg

    For the record, he was incredibly gracious and friendly. He knows exactly who and what he is, and, unlike many, he wears it with perfect grace and ease. You realize he's not incessantly name dropping, that's just his life story.

  9. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal View Post
    I think later rock n' roll started playing much more straight time. To me, this makes a lot of it less interesting.

    ***


    While I agree with this the main reason rock n' roll and the blues is less interesting is the way too basic harmonic structure. Note that early jazz also was based on very basic rhythms. E.g. adding Afro-Cuban and Latin rhythms made jazz a lot more interesting.

    Yeah...I can hear" Rock Around The Clock " coming right out of Duke Ellington ...

    I wonder if the Jazzer who played the Original Rock Shred Solo had not died not long afterward - if he might have become a major influence on early Rock and even beyond.

    I did not grow up on Jazz and I loved watching the Evolution of Rock and R&B .

    Quincy hung out and worked with many of the most famous musicians and people in the world...so I agree that it's silly to think he is name dropping.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 02-21-2018 at 05:04 PM.

  10. #100
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Omaha, NE
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    3,059
    Quote Originally Posted by goldenwave77 View Post
    Really good stuff. Louis Jordan and T-Bone Walker are kind of on the cusp between rock n' roll, and jazz. T-Bone's bends are usually smaller (1/2 step or quarter) than later guys, like BB King. Also, the swing feel is very much there.

    I think later rock n' roll started playing much more straight time. To me, this makes a lot of it less interesting.

    Keith Wyatt had an interesting little bit about Chuck Berry playing with the Chess Record guys, who were basically more jazz like in feeling.

    That is an interesting video. I kind of "knew" this already, just never heard it explained that way. I was listening to Duane Allman today--one of his early solos with Hour Glass (with his brother Gregg)--covering a BB King song--and it was cool the way he was moving in and out of straight time and the shuffle beat. That guy had a great ear and a great feel for the beat, and he learned from the best.

    There are a lot of "tricks" the great ones used that are subtle and probably not noticed, but that's why their song went to the top of the charts and not some other guy's.

  11. #101
    I think the Allman Brothers are maybe my favorite rock band, mostly due to their relaxed groove in the rhythm section. When I was a teenager, I saw them do a 3 hr. concert, and they never flagged, or lost the audience interest.

    Also, the Who are really good. Entwistle really played like a jazz bassist.

    A lot of bad (overdone) rock tendencies filtered into country, and I'm not a big fan of electric basses and loud drums in most country bands...it can easily get overdone, too monotonous and too loud. I much prefer older honky tonk style stuff, or Western Swing.


    To me, the beat should be like a bubbling stream, moving with energy, but not entirely predictable. Good bands lock into that, and play off each other.

  12. #102
    Thats a nice video re the difference between
    The extreme ends of the feel ....

    I believe there's more going on than just
    In the gradations between shuffle and 'straight' beats

    Like swing is something else as well ??

    Like Lucille is straight 8ths feel but swings like a MF

    Some bands can play a shuffle that doesn't swing that much
    No names no pack drill ...

  13. #103
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Greenacres, FL
    Posts
    11,577

    Quincy Jones Apologizes....

    "I know nothing about the subject, and despite that have no opinion." Eugene Volokh

  14. #104
    You beat me to it Mark. I was just going to post that.

    He's not going to go full 'Eyes Wide Shut' disclosure on LA/Hollywood.
    Why bother? People believe what they want to believe. It's good he listened to his daughters. He's right that there's no more music business and IMO it's a double edged sword. It's bean counters and so-and-so featuring so-and-so songs.
    It's all just cut/copy/paste music in a Digital Audio Workstation now.

    Quincy's attempts at making Micheal Jackson rock/new wave in the 80's didn't pan out but who can do everything? He's still one of the top 2-3 producers there's ever been.

    Glad he came to his senses.

  15. #105
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Greenacres, FL
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    11,577
    Quote Originally Posted by mrcee View Post
    Listen to the Mercury album from the late 50s where Louis Jordan recut a bunch of his classic tunes with great jazz players including Mickey Baker. Quincy produced it.
    I was unfamiliar with that, so I gave it a lesson. Didn't work for me at all. This earlier version of "Early In The Morning" still kills.

    "I know nothing about the subject, and despite that have no opinion." Eugene Volokh

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