Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Posts 1 to 50 of 56
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Someone asked me recently who is the guitar world's answer to Miles Davis? And followed with "and who is their answer to Thelonius Monk". I said I couldn't answer that, but told him that I know a cool jazz guitar forum where someone will be only to happy to school us! Any takers?

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    We could easily ask, where is the piano's Miles or sax's Monk? Guys like that are pretty rare, and imo, transcend the instrument. According to Phil Upchurch, there have been 3 unique voices in jazz guitar, Charlie Christian, Wes and Lenny Breau. Everyone else has been derivative.

    I don't know that I necessarily agree, but it is a compelling statement, and suggests it is pretty rare to find someone who really is unique on any instrument. If I were to look around and think of someone today who could be that level, I would probably suggest John Stowell.

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    i'd include bill frisell on the list of unique voices. heck, i'd include grant green--you can tell who he is in two notes!

    but "unique voice" and "artist who completely changed the face of the music" are two different things...to me, there hasn't been a bigger groundbreaker since good 'ol CC.

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Strange question.

    It's hard to compare one great musician to another. There were many great early guitar players like Charlie Christian Wes or even Joe Pass obviously.

    Only in hindsight can we really say " (insert musician here) has clearly had a big impact on both the evolution of jazz as well as simply being an incredible improviser "

    A more modern guitarist that I think one should consider is Pat Metheny. He has definitely opened up some new interesting formats in which Jazz and a more traditional style of composition can blend. The Pat Metheny Group is a great example of this.

    All players are influenced by someone who came before them. So I suppose any musician who can get your attention and make you want to talk about them and learn what they did would qualify them as an "answer to x y or z musician" It really depends on how you define it though.

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    It's going to be me baby!

  7. #6
    OK, I think the guy who asked me this was wanting to know if there was ever a guitarist that ever played like Miles, ie, the slow, searching, seemingly unresolved phrasing, the almost pained tone etc..
    As for Monk, he was wandering if there was a player who did similar things, kooky whole tone runs, off kilter angular dissonance, "teetering on the edge" note and phrase choices etc...

    I guess the answer has to be "no"?

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    OK, I think the guy who asked me this was wanting to know if there was ever a guitarist that ever played like Miles, ie, the slow, searching, seemingly unresolved phrasing, the almost pained tone etc..
    As for Monk, he was wandering if there was a player who did similar things, kooky whole tone runs, off kilter angular dissonance, "teetering on the edge" note and phrase choices etc...

    I guess the answer has to be "no"?

    The answer would be undoubtedly yes. However, they like Monk, may be toiling away in obscurity as people don't tend to want to hear that sort of playing from a guitarist. Guys like David Torn and Robert Fripp come to mind as players who cut against the grain and don't just play predictably melodic.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Someone asked me recently who is the guitar world's answer to Miles Davis? And followed with "and who is their answer to Thelonius Monk". I said I couldn't answer that, but told him that I know a cool jazz guitar forum where someone will be only to happy to school us! Any takers?
    Derek Bailey

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill C
    Derek Bailey
    Or the guitar world's answer to John Cage?

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    Or the guitar world's answer to John Cage?
    certainly an innovator

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    If we're talking Monk and Miles then we're really talking in terms of influence, right? We're talking about musicians who helped to define the sounds of their respective generations. In which case, I don't think there is a "Miles" or "Monk" of guitar, because we really didn't have much say in the developments of those musical areas.

    If we're talking about guitar players who have helped define the sounds of their generations though, I'd say there are four who did that in a big way. Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery, Pat Metheny, Kurt Rosenwinkel. Charlie Christian helped pen the vocabulary of bop, Pat Metheny's slash chords are I think what really characterized jazz harmony from the late 70s and 80s, and Kurt's melodic and harmonic concept can be heard in the respective voices of most of his contemporaries.

    I'm not sure what to say about Wes. He's easily the most recognizable one of the four, and for many defines what the prototypical jazz guitar sounds like... But he came too late for bop, he wasn't exactly a founder of hard bop or cool jazz or soul jazz or really anything else going on when he stepped onto the scene. He's just a giant, even if his sphere of influence didn't make an obvious mark on any one musical movement (like Miles' or Monk's).

    What do you guys think?

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    in his generation I think Jim Hall, He´s very Modern player

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    I guess before one can frame the answer, the question has to be clearer.

  15. #14
    I think I clarified the question in post #6 of this thread......

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    I think Jim Hall is probably the closest thing that I have ever heard to Miles Davis in terms of saying a lot with a few notes, great note choices, and that sort of thing.

    For Monk, I would think of Scofield but with less notes and a more chordal approach. Joe Diorio is the master of the wide and unusual intervalic manipulations on guitar.

    Just opinions of course and based on limited information/listening.

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Lets talk Monk

    Monk was more than just 2nd intervals and whole tone scale runs. He was genius in simplicity.

    He reduced things , like harmony, down to it's basics. Tension, release. His style was unique. You know it's him in a couple of notes.

    As far as a guitar player equivelent to Monk, I don't think we've seen one yet. At least not in jazz.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by franco6719
    I think Jim Hall is probably the closest thing that I have ever heard to Miles Davis in terms of saying a lot with a few notes, great note choices, and that sort of thing.

    For Monk, I would think of Scofield but with less notes and a more chordal approach. Joe Diorio is the master of the wide and unusual intervalic manipulations on guitar.

    Just opinions of course and based on limited information/listening.
    I think Jim Hall as well as far as the Miles thing (very loosely of course), but I'm glad someone else said it cos I didn't think anyone would agree

    The Monk comparison is tougher, maybe there are countless guys who try to play like Monk, and the reason we never hear about them is because, well, they try to play like Monk!!

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    I think Jim Hall as well as far as the Miles thing (very loosely of course), but I'm glad someone else said it cos I didn't think anyone would agree

    The Monk comparison is tougher, maybe there are countless guys who try to play like Monk, and the reason we never hear about them is because, well, they try to play like Monk!!
    how about Joe Morris for the Monk comparison? - not saying he sounds like Monk, but another player with a "different" concept

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    i could possibly go with abercrombie having a bit of a miles thing going on.

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Someone asked me recently who is the guitar world's answer to Miles Davis? And followed with "and who is their answer to Thelonius Monk". I said I couldn't answer that, but told him that I know a cool jazz guitar forum where someone will be only to happy to school us! Any takers?
    I think Bill Frisell can be kind of Monkish in his use of both dissonance and rhythm.

    =-) PJ

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Nice to see Joe Morris get a mention. 'Last I heard him, he was playing upright bass. But as for guitar, I find him closer to Cecil Taylor/Jimmy Lyons. I haven't heard his guitar playing in several years though.

    As for a Monk influence, I'd have to recommend fingerstylist Duck Baker. He's also deeply hip to Herbie Nichols, Elmo Hope and Randy Weston -- Modern, jagged harmonies that still swing Hard. Deep, being the operative word. A bit of a genius, in fact.

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    i hear monk in frisell, and maybe miles in hall or scofield.

    how about coltraine in the more "eclectic" material of metheny??? and i hear hall in metheny, too.

    randy z

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    I hear Miles and Coltrane in John McLaughlin.

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    Mongrel is right - John McLaughlin is the nearest to Miles - he played with him (didn't Miles write a song called 'John McLaughlin' and vice versa too. Also, JM has/can do funk, classical, ballad, blues, modal, fusion - JM's My Goal's Beyond album is guitar equivalent of In A Silent Way. Granted Jm would play maybe 4,000 notes to every quarter note of Miles - Pequod.
    - Fripp is good too.

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    i really don't hear anything remotely miles in mclaughlin's playing.

    why bother trying to find a comparison? miles and monk were as unique as they get, and that's what the OP was getting at, the unique voice, not a guitar-equivalent.

  27. #26

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Pequod
    Mongrel is right - John McLaughlin is the nearest to Miles - he played with him (didn't Miles write a song called 'John McLaughlin' and vice versa too. Also, JM has/can do funk, classical, ballad, blues, modal, fusion - JM's My Goal's Beyond album is guitar equivalent of In A Silent Way. Granted Jm would play maybe 4,000 notes to every quarter note of Miles - Pequod.
    - Fripp is good too.
    Thanks. Just an opinion of mine. If you get a chance, there's a record entitled "Aura" recorded in Copenhagen in 1985 featuring the Danish Radio Big Band playing 10 compositions of Palle Mikkelborg, a trumpet and flugelhorn player. Featured soloists are Mile and McLaughlin. Give it a listen or seven and tell me with a straight face that they are not kindred musical spirits.

  28. #27

    User Info Menu

    Although I really don't think any guitarist has added as much for jazz as Miles Davis, I do think Jim Hall comes closest as a modern guitarist and music innovator.

    wiz

  29. #28

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    i really don't hear anything remotely miles in mclaughlin's playing.

    why bother trying to find a comparison? miles and monk were as unique as they get, and that's what the OP was getting at, the unique voice, not a guitar-equivalent.
    And to add, on the couple of discs I have of John's and a handful of vids of his, I don't really hear him playing the changes. Not to say you have to, but John appears to be coming from a different place than Miles. Just my $.02.

  30. #29

    User Info Menu

    McLaughlin and Miles. Not even in the same universe, as far as anything I have heard.

  31. #30

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    i really don't hear anything remotely miles in mclaughlin's playing.

    why bother trying to find a comparison? miles and monk were as unique as they get, and that's what the OP was getting at, the unique voice, not a guitar-equivalent.

    Exactly. That about sums it up, I think. Who is the Louis Armstrong of guitar? Who is the Pat Metheny of the trombone?

  32. #31

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by franco6719
    Exactly. That about sums it up, I think. Who is the Louis Armstrong of guitar? Who is the Pat Metheny of the trombone?
    Why Charlie Christian and Fats Winkerton of course!

  33. #32

    User Info Menu

    When Sco gets funky, I hear a lot of Monk.

  34. #33

    User Info Menu

    For Monk, Miles Okazaki

  35. #34

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    i really don't hear anything remotely miles in mclaughlin's playing.

    why bother trying to find a comparison? miles and monk were as unique as they get, and that's what the OP was getting at, the unique voice, not a guitar-equivalent.
    In that case -- Jimi, EVH, SRV ... and Wes.

  36. #35

    User Info Menu

    Miles and Monk transcend their instrument by serving as seminal influences on players and composers of multiple generations. No jazz guitarist has influenced the zeitgeist of Jazz in this way. In rock, perhaps Hendrix comes closest to a similar level of influence.

  37. #36

    User Info Menu

    Peter Bernstein has a bit of a Monk feel particularly in his solo stuff, he uses open string dissonances etc. But of course he probably got that by listening to Monk in the first place.

  38. #37

    User Info Menu

    who is the Pablo Picasso of the bagpipes?

  39. #38

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    who is the Pablo Picasso of the bagpipes?
    easily my man Rufus Harley [rip]
    played w/Rollins, Diz, Dex, Stitt, etc
    later in life he used to dress in the American flag, would sit in on our gigs sometimes



  40. #39

    User Info Menu

    Miles liked Sco...cuz Sco played like Miles. Both played on the edge and still made it swing.


  41. #40

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by joe pass jr
    Strange question.
    Still strange 11 years later.

  42. #41

    User Info Menu

    I'm surprised more people haven't mentioned Peter Bernstein thus far. Not just when he's playing monk tunes either, Bernstein in my opinion has really incorporated a lot of Monk's aesthetic into his own sound. Even the way he physically plays the guitar I hear the influence, and i'm not talking a ton about actual material, I'm referring to his touch, his phrasing, his articulation, his rhythmic concept, the way he plays melodies, the emphasis on the songs melody when improvising, and much more..

  43. #42

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    Or the guitar world's answer to John Cage?
    Henry Kaiser...Derek Bailey...Fred Frith...Eugene Chadbourne

  44. #43

    User Info Menu

    It’s interesting that when someone asks for the guitar equivalent of Miles or Monk people think of players that have literally adapted Miles or Monk to the guitar.

    Youd need someone with equivalent originality and influence, and the only guitarist who had that seismic influence and that spiritual connection that I can think of is Charlie Christian. Who influenced both.

  45. #44

    User Info Menu

    In terms of players today who could be the equivalent of Miles or Monk I don’t really know how that would manifest itself.

    Guitarists like Metheny, Holdsworth and Rosenwinkel have had a wider influence on jazz, but it doesn’t feel like what you are asking.

    and yes to the person who said above Peter Bernstein has taken a lot from Monk. There are specific voicings he uses that originate from, e.g.

    3 x 3 x 5 x

    for a G13, and so on...

    However he doesn’t feel like a vanguard sort of figure, more a continuer of the tradition.

    And Sco has aspects of both in his music, but again, how much has he influenced the wider music? Hard to say.

  46. #45

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Someone asked me recently who is the guitar world's answer to Miles Davis? And followed with "and who is their answer to Thelonius Monk". I said I couldn't answer that, but told him that I know a cool jazz guitar forum where someone will be only to happy to school us! Any takers?
    Depends on what you mean by that.

    Adapting their style and approach to music?

    Or do you mean in terms of how they influenced the jazz scene as a whole?

    If you are talking about the latter, I think it is difficult in general to find anyone, as they are both such mega giants in Jazz history.

    I would argue that piano players in general has had a much bigger impact than guitar players as a whole.

    As in the case of Miles, well, no one who plays jazz can ignore his importance, not only as an instrumentalist, but maybe even more so, as a band leader.

  47. #46
    Wow, 11 years later eh? FWIW, I like how people have nominated Sco in answer to this "strange" question. I can see how Sco has stylistic as well as attidunal things in common with both, Miles and Monk. I guess that must make Sco the coolest living Jazz guitarist, no?

  48. #47

    User Info Menu

    If someone has to be mentioned being similar to Monk, Bill Frisell comes to mind. Even though they are not similar at all, but more so than most others that I can think of.

    They both have a an orthodox style of playing, at times, awkward, and hesitant, and they both are very creative, and they both somewhat "struggle" with the notes. as it is a part of the creative process, but also a physical and personal/personality thing.

    As with Sco, he can be quirky, and play unorthodox stuff, but he will always have a natural flow in is playing. Everything feels easy when he plays. As opposite to Monk and Frisell.

  49. #48

    User Info Menu

    Unorthodox, not orthodox, lol

    And I might add, just to avoid any possible misunderstandings, I love both Monk and Frisell, as musicians, and composers.
    Last edited by greveost; 04-10-2020 at 04:04 PM.

  50. #49

    User Info Menu

    Grant

    Green

    period. full stop.

  51. #50

    User Info Menu

    Jim Hall without a doubt