The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnysideup
    I love your posts cosmicgumbo. And agree Larry's not bad for a Texas boy. I guess most US guys don't know that Texas is the US equivalent of Yorkshire - and both John and Allan Holdsworth are Yorkshire boys.

    But we're talking about music - ART - rather than geography.

    There are so many ways to talk about this for older guys like us CG.

    Here's one way - when I was young I could copy some of LC, JM no way, AH - forget about it (even according to JM).

    I owe John a big favour (and the punks). They both gave me good reasons to give up being pro (for different reasons). And I earnt a lot more money: I mean a lot more money than John and Johnny Rotten. Maybe sad but true.

    Now, when I see artists as diverse as John McLaughlin and Jimmy Bruno saying the same thing as each other about the demise of jazz (in different ways) I really wonder if the young guys aspiring to be pro know which way the wind is blowing, has blown, and will blow in the future - especially the future.

    And for all you "teacher" guys (sorry, I mean "persons", but as a group you're usually macho in a middle class sort of way, and male in biology) haunting this forum for business, some more intelligently than others, some more expert than others, some more altruistically than others, some more opportunistically than others, and some more incompetently than others: you all know (well some of you may be too inexperienced to know) that if jazz was alive today you'd be too busy to be here.
    I tried being a pro guitarist in my early 20's and saw a life of poverty and disappointment ahead. I chose to pursue two "day job" careers and made enough money to retire young (48) and resume being a pro guitarist. At 60, I am living the good life, gigging about 200 nights a year (all jazz and all paid, no tip jar gigs for me). Jazz might be on life support, but she is not dead. Perhaps she will come back one day. Until then, I will keep playing classic jazz and hope to inspire young guitarists to keep the flame alive.

    Here is a video from one of the concerts I did with Larry Coryell in 2007 (for the guitar geeks among us, I was playing my L-5 Wesmo and my Dupont Selmer style guitar). The gal singing in one of the tracks is Larry's wife Tracey. Larry was playing a Parker acoustic):

  4. #28

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    Big McLaughlin fan, not so much a Coryell fan. But I do like Coryell's playing on Spaces more than JM's.

  5. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    I tried being a pro guitarist in my early 20's and saw a life of poverty and disappointment ahead. I chose to pursue two "day job" careers and made enough money to retire young (48) and resume being a pro guitarist. At 60, I am living the good life, gigging about 200 nights a year (all jazz and all paid, no tip jar gigs for me). Jazz might be on life support, but she is not dead. Perhaps she will come back one day. Until then, I will keep playing classic jazz and hope to inspire young guitarists to keep the flame alive.

    Here is a video from one of the concerts I did with Larry Coryell in 2007 (for the guitar geeks among us, I was playing my L-5 Wesmo and my Dupont Selmer style guitar). The gal singing in one of the tracks is Larry's wife Tracey. Larry was playing a Parker acoustic):
    Congratulations on sharing the stage with one and only Mr. Coryell!

    Btw, I love your tasteful licks. You're playing with a lot of class there.

  6. #30

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    the one category i'd definitely give maha mclaughlin the advantage, is singing...he had the good sense not to!!!

    larry actually thought he could...bad idea!




    ugh!! haha

    cheers

  7. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by zdub
    Big McLaughlin fan, not so much a Coryell fan. But I do like Coryell's playing on Spaces more than JM's.
    I'v been a McLaughlin fan for much longer than I've been a Coryell fan. Today, I must say that Larry had a broader, more versatile approach to guitar than John. McLaughlin has developed a very unique, one of a kind finely honed guitar playing style and he never deviated from it. Despite the fact that he was involved in playing all kinds of different genres (rock-blues, jazz, Indian, flamenco, Brazilian, etc.) he basically always plays his trademark McLaughlin licks. His guitar solos tend to sound very similar, despite the variations of the underlying music styles.

    That's not necessarily a bad thing, but Larry tended not to repeat himself so much. Which is why these days I gravitate a bit more toward Larry's playing.

  8. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    the one category i'd definitely give maha mclaughlin the advantage, is singing...he had the good sense not to!!!

    larry actually thought he could...bad idea!




    ugh!! haha

    cheers
    I LOVE Larry's singing! He had a great singing voice, and it's a shame he didn't use it more.

  9. #33

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    Both JM and LC obviously did some great stuff, and also had a few boring phases too.
    There's so much difference betweent "what and where" they played, even with both being associated with some of the same styles.

    McLaughlin played with Miles, and Shakti <<<< these are significant factors in assessing the output for these two guitarist

    I understand why neither guitarist is universally loved the same or at all

    John

    **Just as an anecdote on Shakti, when they toured in the mid 70's you'd see the 4 main guys, but very often one or two uncredited young women seated slightly behind them on harmoniums. Once I was at a show, and recognized a girl (I had dated) and came to find out she had been working the theater as an usher, and got drafted into the harmonium seat during sound check. I see from old Shakti videos, even stuff like Montreaux had these uncredited accompanists, would not be surprised if it was a similar way they got the job (I'm guessing there was no/very limited working of the keyboards, they just seemed to pump away a droning sound that may have been preset for them.

  10. #34

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    Just a brief note on that extraordinary album - I got to play with Brian 'Bodger' Odges a bit doing jingles and, apologising for being nerdy, asked him about that session. He said that the two Johns knew what they were doing but he and Tony Oxley were basically winging it. There may have been some conversational modesty there but I said it turned out spectacularly well and he did agree. John Etheridge says Ginger Baker & Jack Bruce were scheduled to do it but got held up on Cream duties so maybe it was a late call but.. wow.

  11. #35

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    Larry did a tour "Jack Bruce and Friends" with Mitch Mitchell on drums. Imagine trying to fill those shoes of Clapton and Hendrix....right after Jimi had died and Cream had broke up. Larry was friends with Jimi and Clapton and had jammed with them both. But Larry had his own thing which is why I imagine he got the gig. According to his bio it was a drug fueled tour. I imagine a lot of them were back then. He did tell me at one lesson that "Eric was very jealous of Jimi'.

  12. #36

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  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnysideup
    :-) I was really just trying to show that there might be more harmony between John and Larry than there is between opinions about Larry and John on this forum.

    I think there are also clips from this concert that feature Larry, and let's not forget Paco de Lucia.

    The Spanish influence on John is profound and well documented. When Miles connected the jazz tradition with the Spanish tradition on Sketches of Spain, John went nuts.
    I asked Larry if he would do another album with McLaughlin... He said "He's got my number"

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinequanon
    True. I remember when in my early youth I met John McLaughlin when he was touring with the original guitar trio. I had seen them in February 1979 with Larry, but this time they had just replaced Larry with Al Dimeola. I remarked to John how Al seems to fit better with the high octane 'day at the races' approach to guitar playing that him and Paco were touting at that time. John disagreed, and told me that he prefers Larry because (and I'm quoting): "Larry has certain tenderness in his playing that is precious and unique."

    So John had a lot of love for Larry's playing, evidently.
    Wow... Now that's really interesting... What a beautiful thing to say about Larry's playing... I wonder id Larry ever knew that John said that?...

  15. #39

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    I love both Larry and John... When I met Larry at My Father's Place in Roslyn NY, around 1977, we became good friends... I went on to study and play with him... Here's a video of Larry playing my LCS guitar... He came to my house and gave it to me after Joe Beck played it at a gig that night... Larry was a one of a kind man and musician... I knew him for 38 years... He played guitar in my living room in Islip, NY... Here's a video of Larry at my house in 2004... I loved the guy... I'm still in shock and saddened that we can't talk and play anymore...


  16. #40

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    As a listener I was introduced to both in the fusion era. I was still a kid back then, who like a lot of kids loved and idolized the rock guitar gods of the era: Clapton, Hendrix, Jeff Beck, Robin Trower, etc. I was also a young student of the saxophone, so I was also listening to Coltrane a lot, and so aware of the relative simplicity of the scales and chords used in rock vs. what jazz players use.

    Hearing both these guys for the first time was a revelation: who knew that a guitar *could* be played like that? Not were they venturing far beyond the blues-based changes and scales of the rock guys, but they were doing it at tempos that were hard to comprehend, and with smoothness and fluidity.

    I've listed to most of the music from both these great players over their long and varied careers. I had a chance to see Larry Coryell in a small nightclub in Italy and he was amazing. Sadly, I haven't yet seen John. I love a lot of the more acoustic or straight-ahead jazz, or even Shakti era stuff, it's all fantastic music.

    But, if we are going to have a VS. topic (as we are) then it's going to come back to the jazz fusion era in my mind. When they were the hottest hands in town, both leaders in a movement that created a new musical genre, largely to accommodate and showcase their amazing talents, who, finally was the champ? So it's Seventh House era Coryell vs. Miles and Mahavishnu era McLaughlin.

    McLaughlin comes out fast and hard. He's gone very far from the norms and cliches of blues based guitar, while internalizing the power and tone of the rock players, particularly Hendrix. In his quest to be the Coltrane of guitar he's learned to play the arppegiated chords-as scales that Coltrane used a basic foundation, it sounds almost alien at times. Listen to his solo on Mile's Davis's "Big Fun" - even given that it's been extensively post-processed by producer Teo Maceo, it's an incredible thing. At once deeply fragmented, shredded, broken but still melodic and thematic.

    Coryell counters with incredible lyricism at a fractal level. The speed of his playing turns small melodies into figures that fly up and down, and then explode out in a different direction all together. The blues is an ever-present factor, but it's been pushed out, extended, and re-configured to provide the basic atomic level components of something much different. There is an exhibitionists shamelessness in the pure joy that his own mastery gives him, listen to the live cut Joyride from his Live at Montreaux album. There is resolution, too. The sly quote from Hendrix's "Third Stone from the Sun", the acknowledgement and incorporation of all that has come before.

    McLaughlin came close to doing a head-cutting session on record, the fantastic album: Love, Devotion, Surrender. And while it's all flower-power, Hindu gurus and white suits up front, once we get to the black vinyl their's not a lot of doubt that this one is for bragging rights, and maybe guitar pink-slips. The album opens with A Love Supreme which features a fantastic seven or eight rounds of traded 16 bar dueling solos, that feature a lot of call and response. Who wins that duel? My mind has changed on that question many times as I've listened to the record.

    It's fun to image a similar set up with John and Larry circa 1975, just after the recordings mentioned above. That's the John vs. Larry that seems like the ideal venue, with a band made up of the best-of-the-best from the cardre of jazz-rock fusion players that they had played with. It's hard for me to believe that Larry would not have won such a head-cutting session, at least to my ears.

  17. #41

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    My sense is that JM was always ahead of his time, one of the finest pair of ears on the planet, exploring different directions, inventing new directions. I began listening to him about the time I picked up the guitar and he was the strongest influence on me.

    "Extrapolation" was my introduction to Jazz, although I had no idea what kind of Jazz it was, still don't really know how to classify it. I have listened to it for almost 50 years and it is still one of my favorite records. It is a very improvisational record that never departs from being beautifully musical. JM's grasp of music and how it is expressed on the guitar.

    Mahavishnu Orchestra "Birds of Fire" and "Inner Mounting Flame" explored the conceptual boundaries of what can be crafted, almost like experimental tests of music which excelled. Many wonderful lessons to be learned in those. The second side of "My Goals Beyond" has acoustic jazz standards with chords I had never heard anyone ever use, amazing and wonderful. His "Apocalypse" is orchestral composing proper (London Symphony Orchestra, produced by George Martin, conducted by Michael Tilson Thomas).

  18. #42

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    Larry Coryell is playing with Charles Mingus here. (The other guitarist is Philip Catherine.) I love this.


  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Larry Coryell is playing with Charles Mingus here. (The other guitarist is Philip Catherine.) I love this.

    Yeah! My introduction to Coryell. So physical sounding, got it right away.

    Larry had it all, attitude, chops, versatility, inventiveness.

    RIP, fellow Texan, Larry Coryell.

  20. #44

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    Unlike most people here, I really haven't listened much to Larry's work as a jazz guitarist but I was very influenced by his recordings on acoustic guitar of Scheherezade and Rite of Spring. Ironically, I believe these were jobs the record company assigned rather than passion projects of his.

    I recall a live 80s concert with Larry, Tal, Abercrombie, Scofield, and Carlton where I was more impressed with Abercrombie and Sco's solos, and it seemed to me at the time, that Larry was grandstanding in his solo by suddenly standing up and playing the same figure over and over across the changes to big audience applause. It kind of left me with a dismissive impression of him and perhaps this was unfair of me and I should listen freshly to more of his playing?

    McLaughlin, on the other hand, always leaves me cold. Playing the guitar like a typewriter just doesn't connect with me as a listener even though I respect his abilities and incredible focus. Of all his output, I liked his post-Shakti work with Indian musicians best. That music seems to mesh better with his approach than jazz does, at least in my opinion.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyV
    Unlike most people here, I really haven't listened much to Larry's work as a jazz guitarist but I was very influenced by his recordings on acoustic guitar of Scheherezade and Rite of Spring. Ironically, I believe these were jobs the record company assigned rather than passion projects of his.

    I recall a live 80s concert with Larry, Tal, Abercrombie, Scofield, and Carlton where I was more impressed with Abercrombie and Sco's solos, and it seemed to me at the time, that Larry was grandstanding in his solo by suddenly standing up and playing the same figure over and over across the changes to big audience applause. It kind of left me with a dismissive impression of him and perhaps this was unfair of me and I should listen freshly to more of his playing?

    McLaughlin, on the other hand, always leaves me cold. Playing the guitar like a typewriter just doesn't connect with me as a listener even though I respect his abilities and incredible focus. Of all his output, I liked his post-Shakti work with Indian musicians best. That music seems to mesh better with his approach than jazz does, at least in my opinion.
    Most of the time when people say that Johnny Mac plays like a typewriter or machine gun etc. they're just jealous. The other thing is, they are so used to hearing non-virtuosity on the guitar that they don't know how to listen to it when they hear it. It can take a while to get it. There is no model, he is the model.

    Chick Corea was correct, when you asses the virtuosity and the improvisational mastery no one else can really do what he does, and never could. He can play softly like anyone else. But he can also play/improvise explosively, for extended solos, and do it for hours on end. I've seen him do it. After his career is over, and on those two measures, it will be a very long time before he is matched.

    Finally, he plays modal stuff so it's not sing songy. That leaves some listeners a bit cold as you say. Most people want to hear major or minor.

  22. #46

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    Most of the time when people say that Johnny Mac plays like a typewriter or machine gun etc. they're just jealous.
    I could never in a trillion years do what McLaughlin does - nor would I want to do so. This doesn't mean I don't respect it. Much of the time, it just doesn't light my particular synapses either intellectually or emotionally. It's fine with me if others feel differently. When Tal Farlow, in his prime, played at high speeds the creative content landed with me more consistently but honestly, as I age, generally speaking, I have much more appreciation for the guy on the street who can play one chord but play it with deep feeling than the guy or girl who plays a zillion notes played with technical virtuosity. There are always exceptions.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyV
    I could never in a trillion years do what McLaughlin does - nor would I want to do so. This doesn't mean I don't respect it. Much of the time, it just doesn't light my particular synapses either intellectually or emotionally. It's fine with me if others feel differently. When Tal Farlow, in his prime, played at high speeds the creative content landed with me more consistently but honestly, as I age, generally speaking, I have much more appreciation for the guy on the street who can play one chord but play it with deep feeling than the guy or girl who plays a zillion notes played with technical virtuosity. There are always exceptions.
    I hear ya. I toggle between Wes and John for a lot of my listening.

    "The Thumb" was a (chosen) handicap but also a blessing. Wes could weave melodies effortlessly as long as he wanted. A melody machine he was.

  24. #48

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    These guys were (are in McLaughlin's case) giants.

    I knew about Coryell first. Makes sense. He was around first...at least, in the USA. I first heard about him via Gary Burton's work in the 60s. That, it seems to me, is the birth of fusion--even earlier than Miles' stuff. Check out "Duster," a great early album.

    I, of course, went through a Mahavishnu Orchestra phase, as did every other guitarist my age. That was some pretty heady stuff.

    Through the years, I guess I'd say that I was more influenced by Larry Coryell than by John McLaughlin. He seemed, to me, to evolve with the times better--while maintaining his core bag.

  25. #49

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    In the mid 70’s I preferred JM to LC. I felt JM’s playing conveyed more emotion, where LC was spitting out a flurry of notes without really saying much (at least to me).

    But as their styles evolved over the years I ended up preferring LC. His later music generally seemed more melodic and connected more with me at an emotional level.

    I don’t listen to a lot of either one these days, but maybe I should revisit both, as my own preferences have evolved. Maybe they’ll connect in ways they didn’t last time I listened.

  26. #50

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    I remember getting a best of Coryell cd from our town's library and thinking that one song in particular reminded me of the Nels Cline Trio. That is definitely (for me, at least) very, very cool. It was raucous and distorted and almost falling apart. Kind of like pre-Mahavishnu McLaughlin. They are both awesome. Larry's work with Gary Burton was very cool.