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  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan View Post
    That was a great upload, grahambop!
    I think it’s been posted here before, that’s how I knew about it.

  2. #32
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    I'm aligned with the sentiments above from first post onward, Eddie just has "it" going on, and Pasquale is fascinating to watch in a different way. P.G. obviously is at the leading edge of mechanics / construction, while E.D. produces the stronger visceral / musical experience. Easy to see how the later moves us more than the former -- not surprising to see plenty of respect for the intellect and mastery of Pasquale, at the same time a preference for the feeling in Eddie's playing.

    I just feel lucky that we can hear both Eddie Diehl AND Pasquale Grasso do their things !

    RE: George Braith, I did get to see him play a small room in Detroit back in the 1980's, I believe it was with Bobby Battle (who long before had started out with Roland Kirk.) I just remember it was a great set, he (like Rahsaan) had a stritch and I think this was when the braithophone was held together with tape. Of course I could be wrong on the details, it was long ago and late at night!

    John

  3. #33
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    That's, it: we're lucky to have them both. PG is only doing what many pianists do...except he manages to do it on a guitar. He really is incredible, and throws the gauntlet down to a new generation of jazz guitarists. I'd pick the gauntlet up, of course, but only to hand it back to him!

  4. #34
    Some of Pasquale's playing redefines virtuosity, and he's obviously got a natural gift, but most of the time I hear the conservatoire in his playing, not the gift. It often just doesn't sound like jazz to me.

    In general it leaves me speechless rather than breathless.

    But as others have said, he's a young guy and his best playing is ahead of him.

    But about the clip that Graham posted: how can anyone so extraordinarily good be playing to such a small handful of people!?

    Has jazz really died that much even in NYC?
    "Really welding was my talent, I think, but I sort of swished it aside." Wes

  5. #35
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    I've seen a number of videos from Small's, Mezzrow, Smoke, etc., where it appears there are only a handful of people in the audience. A "successful" jazz CD sells a few hundreds of copies. The music of jazz is flourishing wih astonishingly good players all over the place, but the market is tiny and getting tinier. And I hear the same things from rock, blues, indie musicians. The live music audience is evaporating except for festivals, perhaps. The Twin Cities Jazz Festival hereabout in the summer has large audiences every evening, but those same folks don't go out to see gigs in clubs. The young people's clubs mostly have DJs or just a loud house PA instead of live music.

    So someone with the chops of Pasqual Grasso, a young fellow who's clearly put in thousands of hours already developing his technique and learning his repertoire, plays in a club where there are as many staff as paying customers.
    Beauty is as close to terror as we can well endure. -Rainer Maria Rilke

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara View Post
    I've seen a number of videos from Small's, Mezzrow, Smoke, etc., where it appears there are only a handful of people in the audience. A "successful" jazz CD sells a few hundreds of copies. The music of jazz is flourishing wih astonishingly good players all over the place, but the market is tiny and getting tinier. And I hear the same things from rock, blues, indie musicians. The live music audience is evaporating except for festivals, perhaps. The Twin Cities Jazz Festival hereabout in the summer has large audiences every evening, but those same folks don't go out to see gigs in clubs.
    Not having an audience is a death knell for live performances. I have to wonder if the reason that some of younger crowd isn't going out as much might be Netflix. I'm only half-kidding -- on-demand streaming entertainment does lessen the need for someone to get out of their chair and go somewhere to hear music being played live.
    -- Bob

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeBob View Post
    Not having an audience is a death knell for live performances. I have to wonder if the reason that some of younger crowd isn't going out as much might be Netflix. I'm only half-kidding -- on-demand streaming entertainment does lessen the need for someone to get out of their chair and go somewhere to hear music being played live.

    You might be on to something. There are less and less reasons for leaving the comfort of home. You can shop, stream your favorite music, see your favorite artist's concerts, watch your favorite movies and if you have a movie room, do it in a cinematic-type setting, chat with other people, and even workout with other people all from home.

    Makes it much easier to be a homebody these days.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan View Post
    You might be on to something. There are less and less reasons for leaving the comfort of home. You can shop, stream your favorite music, see your favorite artist's concerts, watch your favorite movies and if you have a movie room, do it in a cinematic-type setting, chat with other people, and even workout with other people all from home.

    Makes it much easier to be a homebody these days.
    Maybe Pasquale’s gig was being live-streamed to a million ardent jazz fans at home?

  9. #39
    I never go out an hear live jazz anymore. Not much around here in any case but my hours are just not in tune with the music business. Funny I love jazz and listening, playing, and following but live the basic farmers hours. I get before the chickens at 4am and lights out at 8pm. The internet allows crazy folks like me to hear it all the time.

    To the topic of Eddie and PG. I could not agree more Eddie just sounds wonderful and melodic. PG has all the chops and beyond imaginable but in the end I really want to hear line melodic lines. Lately for the past year I keep going back to Paul Desmond and he sounds so good to me. Another one I have great respect than ever is the late Jim Hall. Always liked JH but pruning the tree of focused listening and not getting tired of the stuff is JH all the way.
    specializing in repair and setup, does your guitar play like it should?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeBob View Post
    Not having an audience is a death knell for live performances. I have to wonder if the reason that some of younger crowd isn't going out as much might be Netflix. I'm only half-kidding -- on-demand streaming entertainment does lessen the need for someone to get out of their chair and go somewhere to hear music being played live.
    sure- look at the effects of movies on vaudeville, radio on live music, TV on movies, downloading on the CD industry, streaming on the downloading industry... plus a lot of jazz these days isn't engaging. There's not much danceable groove happening there. Locally one of the best-attended bands plays New Orleans style jazz and has a large swing dancing following.
    Beauty is as close to terror as we can well endure. -Rainer Maria Rilke

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by BeBob View Post
    Not having an audience is a death knell for live performances.
    Jazz has a very long history of lightly attended gigs. Interesting excerpt from Ethan Iverson's interview with Jed Eisenman, who runs the Vanguard:

    EI: What were the set times?

    JE: In the early eighties, the set times were 10:00, 11:30 and 1:00. None too punctual. So think 10:20, 11:50 and 1:30. Granted, we would not do a full hour for the third show but by the time they would come off it would be 2:15. That would be for three, five or maybe eight people in the club.

    EI: That’s what I’ve heard, that guys like Elvin would often play to sparse audiences.

    JE: Not just in the 80’s. I’ve heard the same kind of stuff from the 60’s where Coleman Hawkins played to five people at the Vanguard. After Homecoming, Dexter came in and it wasn’t crowded. Monk played to very sparsely attended houses.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald View Post
    Jazz has a very long history of lightly attended gigs. Interesting excerpt from Ethan Iverson's interview with Jed Eisenman, who runs the Vanguard:

    EI: What were the set times?

    JE: In the early eighties, the set times were 10:00, 11:30 and 1:00. None too punctual. So think 10:20, 11:50 and 1:30. Granted, we would not do a full hour for the third show but by the time they would come off it would be 2:15. That would be for three, five or maybe eight people in the club.

    EI: That’s what I’ve heard, that guys like Elvin would often play to sparse audiences.

    JE: Not just in the 80’s. I’ve heard the same kind of stuff from the 60’s where Coleman Hawkins played to five people at the Vanguard. After Homecoming, Dexter came in and it wasn’t crowded. Monk played to very sparsely attended houses.
    I went to see Dexter Gordon in the late 70's at the Lighthouse and only about five or six people there, I felt sad and angry. Dexter would play the head of the tune and the first solo, then get off the stage and sit in a booth till time to end the tune and he'd get back up on stage.

    When Larry Carlton, Lee Ritenour, or one of the Fusion bands would play the clubs would be packed, but Herb Ellis, Woody Shaw, Freddie Hubbard, Don Cherry, Barney Kessel or other masters would play same club would be half full. Americans aren't interested in music that requires some knowledge to understand and appreciate be it Jazz, Classical, World Music or so on.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by docbop View Post
    Americans aren't interested in music that requires some knowledge to understand and appreciate be it Jazz, Classical, World Music or so on.
    It works both ways though Doc. Allan Holdsworth got the recognition he deserved in the US - well California, is that part of the US ;-).

    I watched an interview with Allan last night, he was saying that he used to offer to pay venues to let him play (often lowly pubs) - and that's why he named his band IOU - they paid with IOUs.

    Allan had a pretty deadpan sense of humour, so I'm not sure if he was joking or not. But I do remember wandering into an empty east London pub some time in the late '70s. And the 3 piece band just blew my brains out. It was a few years later that I realised it must have been Allan.

    Whether you like Allan's playing or not, there's no doubt that he stretched the boundaries of Jazz, as well as being a virtuoso.
    "Really welding was my talent, I think, but I sort of swished it aside." Wes

  14. #44
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    allan holdsworth died broke!!! his fans helped take care of his funeral arrangements..sorry days

    les paul paid for djangos burial...or else he'd be unmarked

    jazz guitar don't pay!!

    haha

    (as if we had a choice)

    cheers
    Last edited by neatomic; 01-15-2018 at 10:32 PM. Reason: sp-

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnysideup View Post
    It works both ways though Doc. Allan Holdsworth got the recognition he deserved in the US - well California, is that part of the US ;-).

    I watched an interview with Allan last night, he was saying that he used to offer to pay venues to let him play (often lowly pubs) - and that's why he named his band IOU - they paid with IOUs.

    Allan had a pretty deadpan sense of humour, so I'm not sure if he was joking or not. But I do remember wandering into an empty east London pub some time in the late '70s. And the 3 piece band just blew my brains out. It was a few years later that I realised it must have been Allan.

    Whether you like Allan's playing or not, there's no doubt that he stretched the boundaries of Jazz, as well as being a virtuoso.

    Allan was Fusion and as I said Fusion bands still filled clubs. But as Neatomic pointed out Allan died broke. Allan's only recorded that made money was the one Eddie Van Halen badgered the record to make. Most of Allan's records were on small label and I heard he paid for recording for most of them. Allan played for the love of music.

  16. #46
    Sure, but most jazz musicians do die broke, and there are varying degrees of broke of course!

    It's often said that Jazz is / was more respected in Europe.

    I don't buy that, and I'm a European.

    But it is true that the African American musicians who really created Jazz often got more personal respect in Europe, and were never forced to go through the tradesman's entrance to play/sing at their own gigs as they often were in the US in the bad old good old days of Jazz.
    "Really welding was my talent, I think, but I sort of swished it aside." Wes

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop View Post
    I went to see Dexter Gordon in the late 70's at the Lighthouse and only about five or six people there, I felt sad and angry. Dexter would play the head of the tune and the first solo, then get off the stage and sit in a booth till time to end the tune and he'd get back up on stage.

    When Larry Carlton, Lee Ritenour, or one of the Fusion bands would play the clubs would be packed, but Herb Ellis, Woody Shaw, Freddie Hubbard, Don Cherry, Barney Kessel or other masters would play same club would be half full. Americans aren't interested in music that requires some knowledge to understand and appreciate be it Jazz, Classical, World Music or so on.
    Back in the 80s and 90s I went to a lot of clubs in So Cal (most in North Hollywood), and saw guys like Tal Farlow, Howard Roberts, Kessel, Pass, etc..), would get a good crowd for the first set but by the 3rd set it was just a few folks.

    I remember one at Donte's with Mundell Lowe (who just passed), and I made the mistake of taking my girlfriend. While she liked the music she didn't wish to stay for all 3 sets! Well Lowe was 'hot' that night and I didn't wish to leave. By that last set there were 3 other couples, all with the guy paying super close attention to what was going on and the gal,,, asleep with her head on the table!. So during a break I said 'hey, we are all want-a-bee jazz guitar players, right?'; the other guys all nodded. (oh and the other table had some of the actors from Welcome Back Kotter. It was fairly common to see well known actors at these late sets in Hollywood, and they didn't have to worry about being mobbed by a crowd, since there was NO crowd!).

  18. #48
    It's a pity it doesn't work the other way around because I've been pretty broke in my time :-)

  19. #49
    So it looks like I'm the only person who prefers Pasquale to Eddie?

    I have nothing against Eddie Diehl, of course, everyone has their own thing.

    But I listen to music to be challenged, to hear something new, to find things that transcend the mundane. I would rather be traumatized than comforted.

    Pasquale's music is in many ways a throwback, but his approach to the instrument is a pretty radical leap forward. It makes me imagine an alternate reality where the guitar was an active contributor in the genesis of bebop, rather than a tagalong younger sibling.

    Frankly, I find a lot of discussions about "soul" or "feeling" reveal more about the speaker than the actual music being discussed.

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