Who Are Some of the Best Swinging Guitarists in Jazz History?

[radiofm74]

I read somewhere someone saying that swing is not necessarily space between the notes because you've got guys playing their lines straight but the lines still swing because how they articulate the offbeats. for me, that's not swing. putting the snare on the 2 and 4 doesn't make the music swing it gives it forward motion, so when accenting the off beats of quavers or semiquavers they're not swinging they are going forward. people are being too vague about what it is, it's the space between the notes.

But the question is ‘how much space’? Eights in swing feel are noted as a triplet quarter + eight. I listen to the greats and sometimes I hear them played like that (but with accents played differently), while other times it’s closer to straight 8ths (not quite that, but closer).

So is there right or wrong in how much space you put, or is it a feel thing and all is equally valid, provided that it swings? Awwww…

[nick1994]

But the question is ‘how much space’? Eights in swing feel are noted as a triplet quarter + eight. I listen to the greats and sometimes I hear them played like that (but with accents played differently), while other times it’s closer to straight 8ths (not quite that, but closer).

So is there right or wrong in how much space you put, or is it a feel thing and all is equally valid, provided that it swings? Awwww…

No I don't think there is a right amount to swing, I think that triplets are generallly the standard reference for swing, but I don't think it matters whether the distance is large or small.

[christianm77]

off beat and up beat is synonymous. usually up beat refers to 2 & 4 and off beat for me always means the and

Yes, it's confusing.

I used to think upbeat was purely 2 & 4 but heard many musicians talk about the upbeat being what I thought of as the offbeat, including Mike Longo, Charles McPherson among others... I wouldn't call the 2&4 an offbeat - a backbeat, more likely.

(But of course in double time the offbeat becomes the backbeat so there is a connection - take Ska & Reggae for instance - do you notate in 4 with a skank on 2 & 4 or half time a skank on the '&'s?)

Therefore it seems like common usage (at least in jazz circles) is that upbeat means offbeat '&'s - come to think of it is this a US thing? Like quarter notes, measures and so on? Anyone else confused by this?

Anyway this is how I have come to use the word 'upbeat' to refer to the '&'s as I thought this was general jazz usage.

In any case the quote you posted makes a lot more sense to me if it refers to the 'ands', and is very similar to some advice Peter Bernstein gives.

[christianm77]

But the question is ‘how much space’? Eights in swing feel are noted as a triplet quarter + eight. I listen to the greats and sometimes I hear them played like that (but with accents played differently), while other times it’s closer to straight 8ths (not quite that, but closer).

So is there right or wrong in how much space you put, or is it a feel thing and all is equally valid, provided that it swings? Awwww…

There is an interesting discussion on a piano forum regarding swing, initially sparked by Mike Longo's 'don't practice with a metronome' post.

Unfortunately I can't seem to find the link, but basically a student of Alan Pasqua (no less) and had recorded his playing and analysed and found that although the articulation itself was straight(ish) the 'ands' so to speak were always on the triplet - that is he was playing late and straight by the right amount to hit the upbeats, which puts an interesting spin on it.

Not everyone plays that way, but several musicians (Bernstein, Moreno) advise that a good swing feel is straight but relaxed and that the accentuation of the line makes it swing. That's certainly how it feels to do it, although your accents may well end up on the swung upbeat anyway through intuition. This is related to what Hal Galper says when he advises students to not try to swing and just play even.

What I draw from this is that it is certainly important to learn where the triplet upbeat is (Mike Longo gets students to practice singing bop heads in 6/8 for instance, Pat Metheny advised students to subdivide in triplets and so on) but then to not consciously phrase using it, if that makes any sense.

Certainly at slow tempos where you can count this it works well to feel the upbeat as a 3rd triplet. Slow swing does have that feel - for example Basie L'il Darlin. In fact, as Mike Longo points out it's less of a triplet feel and more of an African style 12/8. Triplets tend to imply an accent on the first note.

Wes often phrased in 12/8 at medium tempos with hemiolas etc:

Listen to that extended bit where Wes plays some Jive style upbeats/offbeats at around 4:42 and you can hear how tripletty they are. Here was a guy who played dance gigs!

That's what I mean by old school swing, BTW. West Africa meets Europe in America.

Many modern players would phrase in double time instead at this tempo (BTW double time is a whole other topic.)

Anyway, the faster you go the harder it becomes to count, so naturally the feeling of the upbeat becomes more intuitive. In general it's thought that the faster you go, the straighter your playing becomes, but I couldn't say whether this refers to the position of the 'and's' or just the articulation of the eights. In practice, I'll leave that one to researchers and go with what feels natural at tempo.

Breaking it down is probably counterproductive at this point, although I do practice offbeats, 3:2 polyrhythms and so on at 200+.

Anyway rhythm is my main interest and I could blather on for hours.

[radiofm74]

I am afraid that I have hijacked the thread, but I am learning a lot. Thanks to you all!

[Robertkoa]

I am afraid that I have hijacked the thread, but I am learning a lot. Thanks to you all!

Ha! There are a lot of Veterans / High Level Theorists/Hi Level Players /Jazz Veterans etc.
here who are very helpful for Musical Questions especially Theory ...and the practical ways to actually use it .

I've partially Hijacked a lot of Threads also.

I should say thanks to everyone also..
Like the Song 'To All the Girls I've Loved Before' except for me it's
'All the Theory I Should Have Learned Before ' or at least the' shorthand version'.

[sgcim]

I seem to remember that during the SophistaPop era of BritPop, there were bands like Swingout Sister who had several songs that seemed to swing. There were pretty big for a while and then faded - but are still big in Japan.

You've got to love the Japanese. They seem to hang on longer o forms of music that is waning in other parts of the world. 80's Hard Rock and Metal guys can still go over there and make good money. Some live there permanently.

Here is what I consider to be a swinging clip from Swingout Sister - Twilight World. (Man, I loved that singer, Corrine Drewery and the music sounded so good in the London clubs, sigh...)

Forgive the momentary indulgence - Back to Jazz Guitar!

I love Swingout Sister, but they didn't swing, they funked or grooved, like EW&F, George Benson, Steely
Dan, etc...

[lammie200]

Back to JM. Swinging IMHO.

[pcsanwald]

A sax player saw him playing at the Manhattan School of Music in the 90s, and he thought Stern was some college kid just learning how to play jazz.

anecdotes are tough, because it's like, not something you can really discuss. he might have sounded terrible on a gig, it happens to all of us. but here's mike from '92:

This music is not personally my cup of tea, but, to compare someone playing at this level with a college kid just learning to play jazz is ridiculous.

[christianm77]

I really like that album actually.

[lammie200]

I really like that album actually.

I must have 90% of his work including stuff with Miles Davis. Not a clunker among them IMHO.

[Robertkoa]

I must have 90% of his work including stuff with Miles Davis. Not a clunker among them IMHO.

I remember reading where Miles would say to Stern-

'Play some of that Jimi Hendrix s___ ' lol so maybe people have seen Stern rocking out.

I saw Stern at a 3 hour great Gig with Brecker's Band at University of Miami Terrace -way before 92 and was surprised at how well Stern was playing...cause I had heard him mostly bending with gain and Vibrato..
On that Gig Stern was sitting down I recall ..and playing like he did on the Giant Steps I posted.

Brecker was unbelievable that night even for Brecker he was getting to Stern ..who enjoyed it but was clowning around ...like 'what am going to play after THAT ?'

And I like how effortless he is on the Clip above..

That Guy can really Play Jazz- Stern he said he wasn't like Metheny- it did not come easily for him ( Stern)..to learn to play Jazz .but you can't tell now can you...

Also notice that Stern's Guitar is NOT too loud in the Mix- a common mistake ...

I really like that clip ! Except maybe the chorused chords ...Stern sound's like he's Pat Martino's slightly Rocked out Protegè but in the best way....his Rhythmic and Melodic Motifs here are very cool!

[Robertkoa]

Back to JM. Swinging IMHO.

And some super cool smoky snaky Blues Licks inside the lines.. your Point is Made !

Point being- he could ' swing' when he wanted to but perhaps wanted to distinguish himself from other Players go other Ways or was tired of the ' swing ' feel etc.

[lammie200]

And some super cool smoky snaky Blues Licks inside the lines.. your Point is Made !

Not really my point - just part of my music library. There is a lot of other JM stuff that is similar. I think that critics would like to say that he can't swing, but I don't think that he intended for the "swing" factor on a lot of his stuff. He was going for something else. The critics just want to pigeon hole him because they don't understand his creativity IMHO. I can't say that I do, but I like it all nonetheless.

[pcsanwald]

I really like that album actually.

my main problem with it is the chorus really bothers me. it's like too much of one flavor of something sonically for me. his playing is great though, honestly in some ways better than I remembered.

[fasstrack]

...And so it goes....

I mean the endless debate. Cool with me, I guess.

There are so many ways to swing: Wes and Christian were EXCITING. Wes played on top of the beat, and you LEANED IN to what he was gonna do next. That's excitement. Jimmy Raney and Eddie Diehl have centered beats, very relaxed, ditto Grant Green and---in his own unique way---Jim Hall. Early Jim Hall has more in common w/the swing era players than bebop. He even said as much in DB interview from '62 or so.

The modern thing is more white guys who grew up with rock and R &B---straight 8th rhythms. They got into jazz after that grounding. Why would they swing in the same way as the previous generation? Everything changes, and evolution is good.

As for me, if it's pop I never try to swing it. Wrong approach. MAYBE you can lightly swing a tune like A World Without Love. Wake Me Up When September Ends would sound silly swung, as most attempts to swing Beatles. Let it, um, be.

Reminds me of an old Jewish story told by Isaac Bashevis Singer---and probably Sholom Malechim (sp?) before him:

'A farmer was dead set on teaching his horse to talk. He worked every day, whispering into the beast's ear---to no avail.

Finally one day, after the farmer trying again, the horse opened his mouth to utter:

"Let me be a horse"'

[Bbmaj7#5#9]

Here's Herb and Barney doing "Tangerine." Strong swing here.

I know the thread is more than two years old, but THIS... is awesome!

[arielcee]

Herb Ellis swings harder than a Donkey's d#*k.

[arielcee]

Slim Gaillard on guitar. Swingin the shit out of it.

[rpjazzguitar]

I know the thread is more than two years old, but THIS... is awesome!

That's great rhythm guitar by Barney during Herb's solo. Best thing I've heard Barney do.

[AndyV]

Junior Barnard

Oscar Moore

George Barnes - a swinging live perfermance

Joaquin Murphey (steel guitar)

Tom Morrell (steel) with Clint Strong (guitar)

[sgosnell]

Tommy Morrell was a great musician, and his Time Warp Top Hands were an excellent group. Lots of good stuff from them on YouTube. I prefer Rich O'Brien to Strong, but that's just me. Here he is with Bruce Forman and Whit Smith, The High Plains Riffters. I really like that album.

[ragman1]

Best swingers? There are lots. If I had to pick one right now - Jimmy Raney. There's an effortlessness to his playing which is deceptive.

But Joe Pass has got to be in there too.

[ragman1]

The reason I put Joe up there is because any decent jazz player can swing - otherwise they're not doing jazz - but when Joe did it he didn't just keep time, he made the time. You feel that he's leading the backing, not just following it. Like some players can sound like they're doing.

[christianm77]

I think Bruce Forman really swings