The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Pass definitely swings.


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  3. #52

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    According to the RIAA, JM plays on 3 of the top 20 selling jazz albums in history. More than Metheny or Wes, or any other guitarist. He played something somebody liked.

  4. #53

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    Of course he did. That's not at issue. I'm sure so did Kenny G.


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  5. #54

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    Discussion of Metheny's time feel must remain taboo for the sake of internet harmony. Also after all the verbiage expressed both ways I feel I am now a prejudiced judge.

    I do think PM is more swing oriented in his time feel than JM.

    That brings me to something I've been thinking about a lot - the difference between a true double time and merely playing 16th notes.

  6. #55

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    Btw I don't think anyone here is saying JM or anyone else is a bad player or even trying to set up the boundaries of the genre. That's a dead ended perspective anyway I suppose.

    What can we learn from listening to music in detail beyond 'I like it' or 'I don't get it'?

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    That brings me to something I've been thinking about a lot - the difference between a true double time and merely playing 16th notes.

    In my mind, more or less a student still in the protracted woodshed stage, I try to be able to do some elemental, seemingly simple things well, as opposed to dabbling in a million things, not of which I can pull off on the fly, as needed. That's the goal.

    One of the elemental things is:

    to seamlessly play quarter notes, 8th notes, 8th note triplets and double time in an integrated way such that any on of those can interchangeably follow another other one? (including rests and displacements).

    Really basic shit. Forget about note choices, scales, modes, harmony, esoteric ways of thinking about harmony.

    Just Play quarter notes. Play 8th notes. Play 8th note triplets, quarter note triplets, half note triplets. Play double time. Why make it more complicated than it is? the real bread and butter of this music is rhythm, anyway.

    That is to say, double time only makes sense if you can integrate it with 8th note playing.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Discussion of Metheny's time feel must remain taboo for the sake of internet harmony. Also after all the verbiage expressed both ways I feel I am now a prejudiced judge.

    I do think PM is more swing oriented in his time feel than JM.

    That brings me to something I've been thinking about a lot - the difference between a true double time and merely playing 16th notes.
    No taboos for me here. Well, ok, fine!

    But if Metheny doesnt have a proper swing, where's leave us with all these post Metheny hordes of guitar players, you know, with that dreamy clean tone, prog rock influenced college boys? I shudder to think!

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    True. No argument there. But we're talking about swing which is a very specific thing.


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    A lot of great musicians who know jazz time rather well from Roy Haynes to Jack Dejohnette to Dave Liebman to Bob Moses to Antonio Sanchez to Dave Holland etc think Pat Metheny swings his ass off.

    I like his swing way more than that of Joe Pass even though I like Joe of course. Pat's time is one of my favorite things about his playing in fact.

    You are acting like there is some criterion to which you somehow alone have direct access and the rest of us don't but that's just not the case.

    And a lot of of the talk about McLaughlin in here is silly. The man is a monster and has his own take on things. Miles doesn't usually write tunes in honor of players who aren't super bad ass.

  10. #59

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    Wait. I WAY prefer the way Pat plays AND the way he swings more than Pass. I'm not a Pass fan. I'm talking about a very specific thing. Pass plays in a traditional swing manner. PM does not. I'm NOT saying which one is better

    Geez!


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  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Of course he did. That's not at issue. I'm sure so did Kenny G.


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    Rather silly reply. What's worth noting in John McLaughlin's associations is that hordes of bad ass musicians who play jazz rave about him.

    That includes very heavy players like Chick Corea, Pat Metheny, Dave Holland (who was profoundly impacted by John's time concepts), Mike Brecker, Wayne Shorter, Joe Zawinul, Miles (who named a song for him), Tony Williams, Dennis Chambers, Vinnie Colaiuta and on and on.

    You don't impress those people without having impeccable time which you shouldn't confuse as being somehow your personal version of swing and that personal version being the only acceptable time feel.

    John has monster ears and is a real musician who has something to say. He isn't playing dress up like so many others.

    Wilkins himself is leaving out part of the story because he himself did a McLaughlin-esque album some years back which as I mentioned earlier, did not exactly set the world on fire.

  12. #61

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    OMG. You seem to want to equate a value judgement, like Wilkins or myself are saying JM does not have impeccable time. He does. You have have impeccable time and not swing. JM doesn't swing. Can he? Perhaps. He's a fusion player. It's not part of his thing. Maybe he swings his ass off.

    A lot of guitar players don't phrase where the beat's are clearly articulated, like say the way Cannonball or Oscar Peterson do. Where each note has character - long, short, pushed, back, choked. The quarter notes are accented. Guitar players don't generally articulate like that. Certainly JM doesn't. It's not how he defines his rhythmic cells. And that's ok. He still has remarkable time.

    You seem to want it all black or all white. I don't see things like that.


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  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Wait. I WAY prefer the way Pat plays AND the way he swings more than Pass. I'm not a Pass fan. I'm talking about a very specific thing. Pass plays in a traditional swing manner. PM does not. I'm NOT saying which one is better

    Geez!


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    Welcome to my world haha.

  14. #63

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    Purely personal opinion but, I'm going to go out on a limb here.

    When I think of Pat Metheny, the word swing is not the first word that comes to mind.

    It's more likely to be Orchestrion.

  15. #64

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    I believe that there was a particular type of music that was termed "Swing."

    Swing music - Wikipedia

    Maybe see how your heroes fall in?

  16. #65

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    How do you define swing? Playing dotted or inflected eighth notes? Or playing in the groove with the bass and drums no matter what genre your playing in? I prefer the latter definition. More freedom less constriction.


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  17. #66

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    Define swing? It's a style, more than merely a technical definition. It's a way of playing that varies from person to person. If you play the 8ths as triplets or dotted 8ths, or closer. Billy Higgins places his 8ths very close so they almost are straight, but yet he still swings like hell.

    It's not just a groove. It's not hip-hop, or New Jack Swing. I play that stuff. Just had a rehearsal last week with a fusion funk band that was great. But I'm talking jazz and the music that grew from jazz. Has long legs into jazz. To me, if you can't play that you got some homework to do. That's what I had to do when I found I didn't play bop in a legitimate way. This was about 15 years ago. I've been analyzing it and working on it ever since.

    Examples of swing from not guitar players.

    Oscar Peterson swings like nobody's business. Each note has it's value. Each quarter is pushed in ways that most guitar players just don't do, or don't hear.


    Yusef Lateef. One of my favorites.


    Cannonball with Sarah Vaughn. Interesting take. Sassy sings so slow and behind. The horns have great articulations. The read with dynamics. Most guitarists don't. Cannonball's solo swings, like he does. The beats are articulated.


    These are examples of playing swing. It's bop. Not SWING music, but jazz played swinging. I'm sorry, but I don't hear a lot of guitar players who articulate that this. It's hard. Playing the quarter notes long, or accented and with intention, which might mean you have to vary your picking patterns from alternate or economy to more musical phrases.

    I think this is more along the lines of what Jack Wilkins was referring to. Maybe not. But it's what I am referring to. If you just play fast like a buzz saw, you can have fantastic time but you're not really articulating or phrasing lines that have a swinging rhythmic propulsion.

  18. #67

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    The swingingest guitarist I've ever heard, IMO, was Charlie Byrd. Everything he played, swung.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by trap
    How do you define swing? Playing dotted or inflected eighth notes? Or playing in the groove with the bass and drums no matter what genre your playing in? I prefer the latter definition. More freedom less constriction.


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    Perhaps we should avoid this word 'swing' as it's used in a number of different contexts:

    1) historical style of music (as in - I play in a swing band.)
    2) specific reference to the inequality of the 8th note (as in - can you make it more swung?)
    3) a feeling generated by the musician playing rhythm in a certain way (as in - that cat swings!)

    So, players can be 3) but not 1) or 2). It's hard to pin down.

    As I mentioned to me swing formally has to do with the polymeter in jazz - 6/8 against 4/4, those West African on European inflections. That doesn't mean that players dot their 8ths - it's something more subtle than that. But many educators and musicians have flagged this up.

    It's something I hear a tremendous amount in Wes, and not much in John MacLaughlin. That's not a value judgement, any more than stating that Charlie Christian never uses the altered scale is a value judgement. It's merely a technical observation.

    BUT! Swing is not just one thing either. Samba music has a concept of swing, but it's obviously not the jazz concept at all!

    Regarding jazz swing and jazz time/feel generally, here's an interview that's been posted a few times which I think is great:
    Interview with Charles McPherson | DO THE M@TH

    I also enjoyed this interview:
    Interview with Billy Hart | DO THE M@TH

    Whatever you call anything, it's about honing one's perceptions of time and understanding rhythm stylistically and culturally as well mathematically. Drummers know this stuff for instance, guitarists - less so. Hang out with drummers! (Didn't Pat say something like that himself?)
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-12-2017 at 06:31 AM.

  20. #69
    Kinda funny that "swing" has become the most contentious word on the JAZZ forum in recent weeks. :-)

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Kinda funny that "swing" has become the most contentious word on the JAZZ forum in recent weeks. :-)
    True. Usually "jazz" holds the title for the most contentious word on the Jazz forum.

  22. #71

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    Yeah people seem to be really hung up about these terms.

    To me, jazz and swing have an identifiable core - and most people would agree that (sorry to keep using the same example) - Wes is a jazz guitarist, and he swings. No-one I think would disagree with that.

    Finding the edge of what jazz and swing is much more contentious, and this is where disagreements occur.

    But as a student of the music, my interest is largely concerned with the centre of this music, even if my own music might not necessarily be jazz to some people. I'm interested in knowing more about Wes was doing, for instance, and what Wes was doing was about a certain style of rhythm. I may as well attach the label 'old school hard swing' to that.

    It's the study of archetypes - very useful in music training. If you study counterpoint, you go to Palestrina and Bach (or at least abstracted examples) - you don't go to Brahms, even though he was a master contrapuntalist. And so on.

    Not to say that PMG, Mahavishnu, whatever, is worthy of study in it's own right of course. But I would see those as different archetypes.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-12-2017 at 09:18 AM.

  23. #72

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    Quick question:

    Can a soloist swing while the band plays straight?

  24. #73

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    So from what I've gathered, swing or playing with a swing feel has more inflected or accented notes. More dynamic picking.
    I've heard Jack Wilkins play live and I guess he does that, but he also has those flurries of very fast passages like McLaughlin.
    Overall I love Jacks playing.
    Metheny also accents a bit.


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  25. #74

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    Hm. Yes, of course PM plays accents and JW plays flurries of notes. It seems like you're thinking in categories of flurries and accents. That's not it at all. It's about where those accents are and how they're placed, with what energy- pushed, pulled. Flurries: what notes, where, when accented?

    It's too general and vague to speak in such broad terms. Becomes almost useless.

    That's what I showed examples. It's hard to generalize about music verbally. Music isn't verbal. It's music.


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  26. #75

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    Not wishing to sway anyone's opinion on JM's sense of swing but I thought it might be instructive to hear him in a pre-Extrapolation context. McLaughlin had a working band with saxophonist Tony Roberts and bassist Danny Thompson (ex-Pentangle) in the mid '60s that played lots of standards and bop classics along with more free improvisation. Here's a sample (most of the YouTube clips featuring the band have disappeared):