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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon View Post
    "
    Gene Puerling"

    I have to admit I had to google that name, but now I see he was in the Hi Lo's etc..
    Genius vocal arranger for The Singer's Unlimited.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Man that's tough. So many I hate to leave off. But if I had to carve it all down to 5....

    -Bill Evans
    -Chet Baker
    -Miles
    -Monk
    -Aaron Parks

  4. #53

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    Feels weird leaving off all the drummers. I am drawn so heavily to lush harmony and lyrical melody... but drummers really make the music dance in ways that harmony and melody can't. And if I'm being honest, I feel like drummers have influenced me more than any other instrument in the way they teach us to FEEL and swing. Art Blakey, Philly Jo, Elvin, Tony, Billy Higgins... good lord... there should really be a whole separate "which 5" thread just for discussing how important and influential the drummers in our tradition have been on us.

    *I just realized I listed 5 drummers above. I didn't intend to start the 5 drummers list with that. They were just the first ones that came to mind. Which I guess means that's probably a good starting point. Though I might fight with myself to try and squeeze in one or two modern players to make things feel more balanced and authentic for me if I were going to make an official list.

  5. #54

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    I can’t believe I forgot Vince Guaraldi! Had to go back and edit my list.

    Last edited by zcostilla; 06-20-2019 at 12:21 AM. Reason: Spelling
    Redeemed, Husband, Father, Veteran. Thankful for all four!

    I play a customized Godin 5th Avenue, Córdoba GK Studio, and a Hamer Korina. I also play a Kala uBass on occasion

  6. #55

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    Good to see some love here for Hank Mobley , underrated player ( except amongst elite hipster cognoscenti )

  7. #56

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    Only the famous ones seem to make it to those kinds of lists. I'm never gonna feel compelled to put "Coltrane" on such a list just because you're supposed to. What counts for me ultimately is what moves me. So many greats don't get the fame they deserve. A space of five is a little short but here goes. Two singers. One arranger - people like Quincy Jones are sorely missing in today's jazz.

    Frank Sinatra
    Anita O'Day
    Clifford Brown
    Mulgrew Miller
    Quincy Jones

  8. #57

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    Oh well, Sinatra isn‘t exactly unknown...

    As far as I‘m concerned, naturally I started listening to the big names first because they were the ones that were most readily available. But guess what - they weren‘t big names for nothing.

    You wouldn‘t know most of the people I listen to now, but I‘m too old to be moved by them in such a big way as I was moved by Dexter when I was nineteen.


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  9. #58

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    Louis Armstrong (trumpet)
    Bobby Hackett (trumpet)
    Art Van Damme (accordian)
    Urbie Green (T-bone)
    Toots Theilman (harmonica)

    And.... sneaking these in under the obscure fusion rule

    Chic Corea
    Joe Zawinul


    That was hard... I left off band leaders, composers, drummers... (et al)
    Last edited by geogio; 08-04-2019 at 07:05 AM.

  10. #59

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    1. Keith Jarrett
    2. Bill Evans
    3. Duke Ellington
    4. Monk
    5. Wayne Shorter

    Not necessarily in that order, except for Jarrett

  11. #60

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    1. Thelonious Monk - rhythmically, melodically and harmonically
    2. Miles Davis - say it with less
    3. John Coltrane - say it with more
    4. Jon Hassell* - creative use of technology can bring you to timbres never imagined
    5. Kenny Wheeler - gorgeous music with gorgeous tone

  12. #61

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    It is interesting, how influence and like differ as Christian stated in the original post.
    Maybe I am wrong, but it seems some answers do not differentiate, and list poster's heroes.

    I really like drummers, DeJohnette, Tony Williams, Billy Higgins, Paul Motian, Dave Weckl, but their execution of rhythm is so different compared to either guitar solo or accompaniment I can not imagine how they could influence me (except "everything influences what we hear regularly")

    Anyway here is my list:

    Keith Jarrett
    Bill Evans
    Charlie Haden
    Miles Davis
    Dexter Gordon
    Freddie Hubbard (sorry I can not leave him out)
    Last edited by Gabor; 07-23-2019 at 02:15 AM.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbear View Post
    1. Keith Emerson
    Reading this I recognized, I left Emerson from my list. There is no way I was not influenced by him, because after more than 30 years I still recall every note in Tarkus or in The Barbarian, when re-listening any LP.
    Last edited by Gabor; 07-25-2019 at 01:33 AM.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post

    9. Glen Gould--though, hopefully not his posture
    It is interesting you mentioned Gould, but not mentioned neither Jarrett, Bill Evans, or Mehldau. I think there is some connection, 1) the poetry, and the arc of the lines 2) the clear execution of counterpoint and in general polyphony. (Unfortunately this is way hardest to do on guitar, but Kreisberg and Jesse van Ruller did some amazing stuff on that territory.)

  15. #64

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    Non-guitar...hmm.... maybe I'll also do non-vocal, because that would be a big one as well...

    Benny Goodman's clarinet
    Harry Connick Jr's piano
    Clarence Clemons' saxophone
    Louis Armstrong's horn
    ...then I'd have to generically say ALL the big band horn sections from Benny Goodman, Glen Miller, and Tommy Dorsey

  16. #65

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    Mose Allison
    Keith Jarrett
    Bill Evans
    Thelonius Monk
    Tom Jobim
    Last edited by rhl-ferndale; 07-23-2019 at 12:48 PM. Reason: Correction
    Robert Hill Long
    Ferndale California
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  17. #66

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    Thelonious
    Sonny
    Miles
    Steve (Swallow)
    Gary (Burton)

  18. #67

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    Stan Getz
    Bill Evans
    Joao Gilberto
    Antonio Carlos Jobim
    Nat Cole

    Bill Evans seems to be a recurring name.

  19. #68

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    Ron Carter
    Bill Evans
    Ahmad Jamal
    Bobby Hutcherson
    Charles Lloyd

  20. #69

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    1. Hoagy Carmichael
    2. Dizzy Gillespie
    3. Nat King Cole
    4. Count Basie
    5. Donald Fagen

    6th place:
    Duke Ellington
    Miles Davis
    Herbie Hancock
    Ella Fitzgerald
    Victor Young
    Wayne Shorter
    George Gershwin
    Jimmy Giuffre
    Horace Silver
    Arif Mardin

  21. #70

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    I think a more interesting thread would be adding clips to go with the answer. Influence should be noticeable to some extent in one's playing. For example Rene Thomas and Jimmy Raney. Or Tal Farlow and Dan Axelrod. Just to name some very clear examples. I realise sometimes it is way more subtle than in the aformentioned cases but still. If there is no discernable effect on or trace in one's playing what exactly is the influence?

    Seems to me most people here just state a few guys they like or admire or find inspirational. That's ok but that is not influence IMHO.

    I mean I could state I am deeply influenced by Bird, Bill Evans and Coltrane and still sound like Jerry Garcia on a bad day. What is that influence worth?

    DB

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    1. Hoagy Carmichael
    2. Dizzy Gillespie
    3. Nat King Cole
    4. Count Basie
    5. Donald Fagen
    Just love Hoagy - a man of many talents that really made a mark. Of course there is the many fine songs he wrote, with Stardust often being sited as one of the 'best' structured songs and Georgia on My Mind, where each generation offers up a timeless cover of this classic. Add to this the many first-rate films he was in (Young Man With A Horn being a must-see for those into jazz).

    Hoagy was often the life of a Hollywood party; E.g Lauren Bacall recalls a time that Bogie and her had a party and the informal entertainment; Hoagy and Judy Garland!

  23. #72

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    Don Stiernberg. I play mandolin (classical, fiddle tunes) and sort of rediscovered jazz through Don.


  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog View Post
    If there is no discernable effect on or trace in one's playing what exactly is the influence?

    Seems to me most people here just state a few guys they like or admire or find inspirational. That's ok but that is not influence IMHO.

    I mean I could state I am deeply influenced by Bird, Bill Evans and Coltrane and still sound like Jerry Garcia on a bad day. What is that influence worth?

    DB
    I've read the thread from the top. Current standings:

    1 Miles Davis
    2 Bill Evans
    3 John Coltrane
    4 Thelonious Monk
    5 Dexter Gordon
    6 Charlie Parker
    7 Charles Mingus
    8 Sonny Rollins
    9 Stan Getz
    10 Louis Armstrong

    My wife (in this context a paraphrase for the average middle age pop consumer) could have made this list by random name dropping. These are just very well known names in jazz and for good reasons. We are all influenced by these guys one way or another.

    MIke Moreno said "People don't know what influence is. They think they know, but they don't. You should be able to play the music created by the guys that inspired you." ..."Think about your influences. -Are they really an influence to you? Can everybody in this room get up and for 3hours, without repeating themselves, play the music by their favorite composers?" ..."You start by learning pop-tunes by ear. You got to make use of the inspiration to take it to the next level. I've been learning from what I've been listening to. Listening to records, copying note by note. Then I started to listen to music without guitar and for me that was the shit, much more than any jazz record made by a guitar player."

    Before we move on, let's just stop and reflect over the fact that we are talking about non-guitar jazz musicians in this thread. I'm personally more influenced by the writers, arrangers and producers, rather than the performers. But rest assured I've been copying my guitar heroes note by note (and some players of other instruments too for that matter).

    An artist inspires someone to pick up and learn to play an instrument. The music I like to listen to influences my perception of music, regardless if I plan to make it part of my repertoire or not. The more I play, the less time I spend listening to records/performances. The more time I spend composing, the less time I spend studying other peoples work. So I need to recharge every now and then. The cycle typically goes; 1. I look for inspiration and absorb material made by my influence and train my ears; 2. I express myself (practice/gig/compose/record); 3. Recharge/look for new influences/train ears, and so on.

  25. #74

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    Sonny Rollins!

    I like everything about the guy's playing. Intellectual yet accessible. Virtuosic, but only in pursuit of an idea - never to show off. His tone implies an ironic sense of humor, to my ear.

    When I want to hear jazz, I listen to his recordings. This is who I would emulate.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoughtfree View Post
    Sonny Rollins!

    I like everything about the guy's playing. Intellectual yet accessible. Virtuosic, but only in pursuit of an idea - never to show off. His tone implies an ironic sense of humor, to my ear.

    When I want to hear jazz, I listen to his recordings. This is who I would emulate.
    Do you prefer his early period (say until mid 60's?) more so than what he's done since?

  27. #76

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    Big gaps in my Rollins knowledge, but I am familiar with his late 50s trio work, Village Vanguard and Way Out West. Also the album with Coleman Hawkins, which is an interesting contrast in styles. Tenor Madness, The Bridge, others - I have heard them, need to re-listen. The sax-bass-drums trio without piano, I love that sound. (I would have welcomed hearing Wes without a piano player, but it must never have been his choice.)

  28. #77

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    In alphabetical order...

    David Grisman
    Claire Martin
    Charles Mingus
    Thelonious Monk
    Jaco Pastorius

  29. #78

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    Bud Powell
    Thelonious Monk
    Bird
    Kenny Dorham
    Hank Mobley
    .............
    Plus too many more for the list.

  30. #79

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    These are not necessarily in any order of importance:
    Gene Ammons
    Dexter Gordon
    Joey D'Franscesco
    Chet Baker
    Johnny Hartman

    Good Playing . . . Marinero

  31. #80

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    Love seeing our city's beloved "Hankenstein" getting so much love here (Hank Mobley). We try to keep his memory alive by playing some of his tunes every gig.

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
    John Coltrane
    Mingus
    Chick Corea
    Jarrett
    Freddie Hubbard
    Sonny Rollins
    Clifford Brown
    Ah! I had to go back and search for my reply. I still 100% agree with my three years ago self. And I’d add that these folks preempt any influential guitar players, I think.


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  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post

    I gotta give a shout out to Henry. Out of everyone who I've heard who lists Coltrane as an influence, you can REALLY hear 'trane in Henry's playing!
    Wow. As you may know I haven’t been around participating in some years. I just saw this. Thank you! That’s awesome. I do hear Coltrane in my head as a primary influence. I just hear Trans like lines.


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  34. #83

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    Can't believe I'm the 1st to say Max Roach, the most lyrical, melodic drummer. Which of course leads to Clifford Brown with his rapid fire melodic runs at an age that's younger than my youngest daughter. Then there's Jaco, the tragic beauty, depth, dynamics. So heavy.....

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
    Wow. As you may know I haven’t been around participating in some years. I just saw this. Thank you! That’s awesome. I do hear Coltrane in my head as a primary influence. I just hear Trans like lines.


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    Hi Henry!

  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    I've read the thread from the top. Current standings:

    1 Miles Davis
    2 Bill Evans
    3 John Coltrane
    4 Thelonious Monk
    5 Dexter Gordon
    6 Charlie Parker
    7 Charles Mingus
    8 Sonny Rollins
    9 Stan Getz
    10 Louis Armstrong

    My wife (in this context a paraphrase for the average middle age pop consumer) could have made this list by random name dropping. These are just very well known names in jazz and for good reasons. We are all influenced by these guys one way or another.

    MIke Moreno said "People don't know what influence is. They think they know, but they don't. You should be able to play the music created by the guys that inspired you." ..."Think about your influences. -Are they really an influence to you? Can everybody in this room get up and for 3hours, without repeating themselves, play the music by their favorite composers?" ..."You start by learning pop-tunes by ear. You got to make use of the inspiration to take it to the next level. I've been learning from what I've been listening to. Listening to records, copying note by note. Then I started to listen to music without guitar and for me that was the shit, much more than any jazz record made by a guitar player."

    Before we move on, let's just stop and reflect over the fact that we are talking about non-guitar jazz musicians in this thread. I'm personally more influenced by the writers, arrangers and producers, rather than the performers. But rest assured I've been copying my guitar heroes note by note (and some players of other instruments too for that matter).

    An artist inspires someone to pick up and learn to play an instrument. The music I like to listen to influences my perception of music, regardless if I plan to make it part of my repertoire or not. The more I play, the less time I spend listening to records/performances. The more time I spend composing, the less time I spend studying other peoples work. So I need to recharge every now and then. The cycle typically goes; 1. I look for inspiration and absorb material made by my influence and train my ears; 2. I express myself (practice/gig/compose/record); 3. Recharge/look for new influences/train ears, and so on.
    That Moreno interview/masterclass reminds me of the fact that I was having a conversation with a colleague on a gig yesterday musicians - him saying can graduate jazz college with flying colours with a repertoire of about four standards. They can solo like Moreno but they can’t play the gig (if it ain’t their project.)

    (I mean they might learn all the hard Trane tunes like Satellite and 26-2 but conveniently overlook all the amazing playing Trane did on old standards. Jazz as crossword puzzle.)

    All the actually good players I know, however modern, can do this. Because they’ve been on the bandstand. But it would be nice if the education system prepared them a bit more. Moreno talks about the fact that the more tunes you learn the faster you learn tunes. This really important.

    Looking back that’s the advice I’d give to the younger me, but I think I’d have ignored it lol. I’m not the best in terms of rep but I try to learn the music I get turned on by and I don’t have reach for the iReal for every other tune.

    There are few more enjoyable ways to spend your practice time than with real music that you love.

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    That Moreno interview/masterclass reminds me of the fact that I was having a conversation with a colleague on a gig yesterday musicians - him saying can graduate jazz college with flying colours with a repertoire of about four standards. They can solo like Moreno but they can’t play the gig (if it ain’t their project.)

    (I mean they might learn all the hard Trane tunes like Satellite and 26-2 but conveniently overlook all the amazing playing Trane did on old standards. Jazz as crossword puzzle.)

    All the actually good players I know, however modern, can do this. Because they’ve been on the bandstand. But it would be nice if the education system prepared them a bit more. Moreno talks about the fact that the more tunes you learn the faster you learn tunes. This really important.

    Looking back that’s the advice I’d give to the younger me, but I think I’d have ignored it lol. I’m not the best in terms of rep but I try to learn the music I get turned on by and I don’t have reach for the iReal for every other tune.

    There are few more enjoyable ways to spend your practice time than with real music that you love.
    Young players tend to focus on technique and general music fundamentals, it's reasonable I think. At the same time the song book is important to get command of the language, there has to be heart and brain.

    I suppose some people like improvisation, some like composition and most of us like a bit of both. Which reminds me of this quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhythmisking View Post
    There was a time period where jazz was popular, and jazz music was a part of popular music. But my point is that compositions such as the Ellington/Strayhorn tunes; indisputably "jazz songs", were first and foremost beautiful compositions. The compositional intention was primarily to create a beautiful song, not quickly dash off a framework to blow over with melody almost as an afterthought.

    Great iconic jazz musicians from the bop era forward were and are celebrated (and studied) for their improvisations first, and their compositions second -if at all. Certainly exceptions (Ellington) abound; no doubt. But I'm of the opinion that the evolution of jazz as a genre ended up in the weeds (as far as it being popular music) when the importance of song composition fell away under the dazzle and sparkle of expertly executed vertical improvisation.

    I believe a large part of the reason iconic masters such as Parker, Hawkins, Young, etc are perceived as being as great as they are is because their work took place at the overlap of horizontal and vertical improv styles. They grew up and were influenced by players whose improvisations were based on a song's melody and tended to be thematic melody-like lines that moved through changes. As they started formulating their lines referencing the changes more strongly, they still had the foundation of the primacy of a cohesive melodic thread guiding them. As newer, contemporary players study them, they concentrate largely on the chord/scale elements of their playing and also view their own improvisation primarily in terms of scalar relationships to chords, and my assumption is that this is the emphasis of what is generally taught academically in jazz studies: Use the correct patterns over the individual chords as quickly and accurately as possible and bingo, you're playing jazz!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhythmisking View Post
    Jazz went from being an illegitimate interpretive style, to it's own musical genre, to a musical orthodoxy which can now be studied academically alongside classical music at the Doctorate level. If Jazz Studies students spent more time studying great songwriting, and a lot less time scrutinizing, analyzing and emulating the improvisations of The Great Jazz Icons of Yesteryear, there might be a different understanding of why jazz is no longer popular music.

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    Young players tend to focus on technique and general music fundamentals, it's reasonable I think. At the same time the song book is important to get command of the language, there has to be heart and brain.

    I suppose some people like improvisation, some like composition and most of us like a bit of both. Which reminds me of this quote:
    Hmmm. Yeah, it may seem reasonable, but I wonder if it actually is .... I think what might be unhelpful is the idea that music fundamentals and technique are separate from actual music.

    This reminds of an interview with Molly Tuttle who has bags of chops (and a Berklee grad to boot) and said she acquired these skills just by playing tunes. Obviously you won’t find a better country flat picking drill than a fiddle tune, or simply trying to fill in the chords when playing solo...

    otoh you won’t find a better bop picking etude than a Parker head.

    An overly reductionist approach to the arts maybe? You know all those great players who say ‘I’m not a book person’, ‘I never worked on etudes’ or ‘I just played music’?

    Thing is you can solo like a mf, but if you don’t know at least some tunes and can’t accompany in a simple an supportive way, you will be passed over for gigs by people who have these skills (ie ‘show maturity’) and some pick them up super early, but for the others...

    This is requisite for making a living playing jazz....

    Know plenty of great young soloists who I cannot dep gigs to.

    As Hal Galper puts it, the aim of practice should be to get you onto the bandstand. But, as jazz increasingly is about the colleges... glad to say I live somewhere where there is a bandstand, however imperfect.

    Perhaps it unrealistic to expect colleges to provide this type of learning.

  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Hmmm. Yeah, it may seem reasonable, but I wonder if it actually is .... I think what might be unhelpful is the idea that music fundamentals and technique are separate from actual music.

    This reminds of an interview with Molly Tuttle who has bags of chops (and a Berklee grad to boot) and said she acquired these skills just by playing tunes. Obviously you won’t find a better country flat picking drill than a fiddle tune, or simply trying to fill in the chords when playing solo...

    otoh you won’t find a better bop picking etude than a Parker head.

    An overly reductionist approach to the arts maybe? You know all those great players who say ‘I’m not a book person’, ‘I never worked on etudes’ or ‘I just played music’?

    Thing is you can solo like a mf, but if you don’t know at least some tunes and can’t accompany in a simple an supportive way, you will be passed over for gigs by people who have these skills (ie ‘show maturity’) and some pick them up super early, but for the others...

    This is requisite for making a living playing jazz....

    Know plenty of great young soloists who I cannot dep gigs to.

    As Hal Galper puts it, the aim of practice should be to get you onto the bandstand. But, as jazz increasingly is about the colleges... glad to say I live somewhere where there is a bandstand, however imperfect.

    Perhaps it unrealistic to expect colleges to provide this type of learning.
    Yes and I'm once again reminded that most of our influences had something to say while still in their 20s. But 1959 was 60 years ago, and meanwhile the music landscape has changed. It's almost like having asked Wes to learn songs from 1899 and older. Maybe he did, but he surely didn't have any Real Book of several hundred standards from that period. But agreed, I strongly feel that studying Jazz without addressing a list of important standards would be like studying classical music without addressing works of the old masters.

    You know I agree about music and passion, but we all need to start somewhere, right? Students first have to find and explore the music, get to know it. They don't play Jazz everyday on the radio anymore like they did when Wes grew up. It's not pop anymore. Students have a bag of contemporary pop influences at the time they start studying Jazz and this will be reflected in the music of tomorrow. Anyway, I like to assume that anyone who decides to study Jazz also love the music. Most important is to learn to play the music I love. Real Book and records are great sources.

  40. #89

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    1) Bill Evans (piano)
    2) Mike Mainieri (vibes)
    3) Jeff Andrews (bass)
    4) Charlie Banacos (piano)
    5) Sonny Rollins (sax)
    Last edited by Pete Sklaroff; 08-04-2019 at 11:08 AM. Reason: mistake

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    Yes and I'm once again reminded that most of our influences had something to say while still in their 20s. But 1959 was 60 years ago, and meanwhile the music landscape has changed. It's almost like having asked Wes to learn songs from 1899 and older. Maybe he did, but he surely didn't have any Real Book of several hundred standards from that period. But agreed, I strongly feel that studying Jazz without addressing a list of important standards would be like studying classical music without addressing works of the old masters.

    You know I agree about music and passion, but we all need to start somewhere, right? Students first have to find and explore the music, get to know it. They don't play Jazz everyday on the radio anymore like they did when Wes grew up. It's not pop anymore. Students have a bag of contemporary pop influences at the time they start studying Jazz and this will be reflected in the music of tomorrow. Anyway, I like to assume that anyone who decides to study Jazz also love the music. Most important is to learn to play the music I love. Real Book and records are great sources.
    I’m not sure what the Real Book has to do with anything? If anything it’s fossilised the jazz repertoire. A lot of the standards in there are not much use on gigs anyway.

    There’s nothing wrong with contemporary (or at least more recent pop .... except, play me a song.

    One guy, I suggested he play some Radiohead (his favourite band, with changes and melodies. Knives Out is a good blowing vehicle for instance.) - looked at me like I’d grown an extra head.

    I think there’s a lot of kids out there who think jazz = jamming on vamps.

  42. #91

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    Nina Simone
    Grover Washington Jr.
    Chet Baker
    Count Basie
    George Duke

  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I’m not sure what the Real Book has to do with anything? If anything it’s fossilised the jazz repertoire. A lot of the standards in there are not much use on gigs anyway.

    There’s nothing wrong with contemporary (or at least more recent pop .... except, play me a song.

    One guy, I suggested he play some Radiohead (his favourite band, with changes and melodies. Knives Out is a good blowing vehicle for instance.) - looked at me like I’d grown an extra head.

    I think there’s a lot of kids out there who think jazz = jamming on vamps.
    When we talk about jazz standards, chances are we'll find them in Real book.

    -What if the music I love is not in Real book? Then I use records, spotify or similar archives.

    -Are there important jazz compositions not included among 1000 songs in the Real book archive, so important that students should learn them in college? I don't think so, but it's not my call.

    But people learn and play the music they love, whether it's in Real Book or not, right. But if players don't speak the same language we can't expect them to find each other on the band stand. That's the beauty of standards. Without standards we would have to jam on vamps.

    -Are there other standards than Jazz standards? of course! There are Beatles standards and AC/DC standards and Country standards and Soul standards and Blues standards etc etc.

    According to the philosopher Nicholas Payton, Jazz died in 1959, meaning whatever we play in 2019, it ain't jazz and that's cool, because according to him Jazz is dead and uncool, it's no pop anymore.

    Above I've listed my main Jazz influences, non-guitar players. If I was to include the guys that really got my ears in my teens, the list would look different. Donald Fagen would probably still be on the list, he's all Jazz to me and cool since I'm less dogmatic than N. Payton (that happens to be an excellent Jazz trumpet player in our time afaik. Maybe he thinks that we talk too much about players long gone and forget the ones that are alive and kicking.)

  44. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    When we talk about jazz standards, chances are we'll find them in Real book.

    -What if the music I love is not in Real book? Then I use records, spotify or similar archives.

    -Are there important jazz compositions not included among 1000 songs in the Real book archive, so important that students should learn them in college? I don't think so, but it's not my call.
    I'm not going to get into the many problems with the RB as a source. It's fine if you an amateur...

    The sooner budding professional players get into learning music properly and in depth the better.

    But people learn and play the music they love, whether it's in Real Book or not, right. But if players don't speak the same language we can't expect them to find each other on the band stand. That's the beauty of standards. Without standards we would have to jam on vamps.
    Some of the standards kind of are vamps... But that's another story! ;-)

    There's a reason there are standard rep lists, but really my repertoire I learned at first by getting roasted not knowing tunes, and learning those, and now I drive the process more myself learning tunes I like.

    It's all based around the community really. There are different tunes in vogue now at jams than there were 15 years ago, but you can spot, say, the Guildhall students, because they all play the same small repertoire.

    -Are there other standards than Jazz standards? of course! There are Beatles standards and AC/DC standards and Country standards and Soul standards and Blues standards etc etc.

    According to the philosopher Nicholas Payton, Jazz died in 1959, meaning whatever we play in 2019, it ain't jazz and that's cool, because according to him Jazz is dead and uncool, it's no pop anymore.

    Above I've listed my main Jazz influences, non-guitar players. If I was to include the guys that really got my ears in my teens, the list would look different. Donald Fagen would probably still be on the list, he's all Jazz to me and cool since I'm less dogmatic than N. Payton (that happens to be an excellent Jazz trumpet player in our time afaik. Maybe he thinks that we talk too much about players long gone and forget the ones that are alive and kicking.)
    Payton's great. Best trumpeter and he knows it.

    Yeah, the big problem is that if you want to learn standards harmony, you are looking at learning a few hundred tunes of that era (1920s-50s) and you are done (as Frank Vignola puts it) - obviously there's been 60 years of both jazz and pop music since, and contemporary jazz uses different changes, often non-functional.

    Harmony in pop is often vestigal.... I remember myself how alien GASB functional harmony (let alone bop!) was to someone reared on rock music....

    This results in a diversity of repertoire - as well as Gershwin and Cole Porter, you have Steely Dan, Beatles, Stevie, Metheny, Wayne Shorter and so on... So teaching practices have to cover that to... Possibly one reason CST has been so successful is that it can basically get you through ... And is no doubt why CST tends to talk about colouristic harmony rather than the way chords move... Cos chords move different one decade to the other... .
    I don't think that matters, so long as there's a song. Harmony isn't that important.

    NY cats seem to have everything dialled in... but I wonder how much harder they have to work on this than the bop players..

  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I'm not going to get into the many problems with the RB as a source. It's fine if you an amateur...

    The sooner budding professional players get into learning music properly and in depth the better.



    Some of the standards kind of are vamps... But that's another story! ;-)

    There's a reason there are standard rep lists, but really my repertoire I learned at first by getting roasted not knowing tunes, and learning those, and now I drive the process more myself learning tunes I like.

    It's all based around the community really. There are different tunes in vogue now at jams than there were 15 years ago, but you can spot, say, the Guildhall students, because they all play the same small repertoire.



    Payton's great. Best trumpeter and he knows it.

    Yeah, the big problem is that if you want to learn standards harmony, you are looking at learning a few hundred tunes of that era (1920s-50s) and you are done (as Frank Vignola puts it) - obviously there's been 60 years of both jazz and pop music since, and contemporary jazz uses different changes, often non-functional.

    Harmony in pop is often vestigal.... I remember myself how alien GASB functional harmony (let alone bop!) was to someone reared on rock music....

    This results in a diversity of repertoire - as well as Gershwin and Cole Porter, you have Steely Dan, Beatles, Stevie, Metheny, Wayne Shorter and so on... So teaching practices have to cover that to... Possibly one reason CST has been so successful is that it can basically get you through ... And is no doubt why CST tends to talk about colouristic harmony rather than the way chords move... Cos chords move different one decade to the other... .
    I don't think that matters, so long as there's a song. Harmony isn't that important.

    NY cats seem to have everything dialled in... but I wonder how much harder they have to work on this than the bop players..
    I'm thinking of Real Book as a source of tunes, headlines if you like. We're in agreement regarding the problems arising from using RB as the only source, never reading below the headlines. When I add a standard to my repertoire I typically listen to about 10 different recordings. There's the original composition, the original recording followed by later interpretations and arrangement variations.

    Yeah, the contemporary jazz scene is local (or tied to a sub community). It's hard to spread the news as the air is crowded with everything else; a myriad of genres and sub genres.

  46. #95

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    1) Miles Davis
    2) Chet Baker
    3) Billie Holiday
    4) Cannonball
    5) John Medeski

  47. #96

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    Ornette Coleman
    Thelonious Monk
    Steve Lacy
    Anthony Braxton
    Charles Mingus

  48. #97

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    Miles Davis
    Chet Baker
    Charlie Parker
    Ed Bickert
    John Coltrane