Favourite Player Poll

**frisellfan19** · 07-21-2008, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by Jake Hanlon

I voted for Abercrombie only because right now he's just my guy. I always have trouble picking between him and Jim Hall. Right now my connection to John is much stronger since I've gotten to hang and jam with him briefly. I learned more from him in 7 minutes then I did in a semester almost... bit of an exaggeration but not really.

As far as Poll lists goes, I think this one is pretty good. It's again, like said impossible to really pick just 1 cat. I find it interesting that Joe Pass is leading the poll. Very interesting...

John Abercrombie is a criminally underrated player. He is hardly ever mentioned, discussed, etc. It pains me that he is, because he's probably one of the greatest jazz guitarists of our time. Lyrical, intense, passionate, cerebral, textural...these are good words to discribe his playing.

I'm digging his latest "Third Quartet." I own almost everything he's ever touched. Big, big fan of his.

**mike walker** · 07-31-2008, 05:33 PM

Abercrombie is fearless. He just doesn't give a shit. He improvises. Joe pass is a completely different player. A lot of the old guys didn't truly improvise. It's a lot of block stock material. But boy, they did it well, with a fierce swing
and a crackle you could warm your hands on. Few surprises once you understand the bop vocab. They are very different in my book.
Even metheny ans sco don't improvise the way john does. Much respect for him.

**musicalbodger** · 07-31-2008, 05:58 PM

that is a great description Mike. I've never managed to work out why, with all the swing and crackle you describe, Pass, and the "old school" are ultimately intelectually boring. I'm not dissing them in any way, I love Pass, et al, listen to them a lot, and find inspiration from them all, but.... as you say, no surprises just superb playing. True improvisation is a hard road and you don't pick up many followers.

**mike walker** · 07-31-2008, 06:01 PM

. True improvisation is a hard road and you don't pick up many followers

Never a truer word Bodge.

Mike

**gravitas** · 07-31-2008, 09:05 PM

Whether or not a player improvises depends on your definition of improvisation. How are Joe Pass' takes on stadnards not improv? How are they "boring?"

**mike walker** · 07-31-2008, 09:24 PM

Joe plays with Stock info bop stuff. Always did. Jim hall did in the beginning but then he improvised more and more. I'm talking making it up as he goes along here. Hopefully we don't need to get into 'everything's been played before anyway' territory. My definition is being inventive, creative, on the spot. Many players are not. I have taught players that have played for years and as soon as you ask them to just play quarter and half notes over stella they find it tough. Many players come to me who have played over 20 or 30 years and more who feel 'stale'. They have a certain vocabulary down having practiced it to a fine art. But it's a little too much like playing by numbers and they feel they can't get out of that box.
I love Joe and many others that play in those boxes. I don't find it boring. It's a dance. it's in the feel. But i always know where it's going, and sometimes i want to be turned right when i think i'm going left.
Hope this is making sense, It's late in the uk.

Best,

Mike.

**fep** · 08-03-2008, 09:24 PM

Hey Mike,

Regarding Joe Pass...

I took lessons from Bill Thrasher. Bill wrote the Joe Pass Guitar Styles instruction book and was a friend of Joe Pass.

Bill use to say that Joe was very much an ear player and often couldn't tell you what chord or scale he was playing unless he stopped and took the time to figured it out.

I went to a 'Master Class' of Joe Pass and have seen a couple on youtube. If you asked Joe about a line he played, he'd replay something like it slowly trying to figure it out and might say that's a harmonic minor scale or that's these notes that fit on this chord like this... playing the chord and then the phrase. I really got very little from Joe's instructions, imo he wasn't a teacher, a player yes, but not a teacher.

I think it comes down to the definition of improvisation. My highest standard has been that improvisation is spontaneously playing what you hear in your head. I think Joe did this as much as anyone. Under that definition I'd say he improvised as well as anyone.

Your definition is a bit different in that you wrote

"My definition is being inventive, creative, on the spot."

It's interesting that you don't even have to have good ears to meet your definition. One could say, tonight I'm going to infuse my playing with all sorts of 4ths intervals and it may end up sounding inventive, creative, and on the spot. One can do this without having a great ear. With your definition that would be improvisation, based on my definition it wouldn't be.

I also see that under my definition one would not have to be creative to improvise, though for practical purposes playing by ear would generally lead to creativity.

So whether Joe was an improviser or not depends on your definition of what improvising is.

**mike walker** · 08-04-2008, 05:20 AM

Hey Frank
Great Post, that.s interesting about Joe, it's not surprising tho, I watched a video of his once where that was pretty much the case. I guess my 'inventive creative and on the spot' quip should be qualified as to what was in my head.
It's fairly easy to build up a set of materials in the Bebop idiom (or other) and polish those ad infinatum, then draw from that material. If i try to work out a joe Pass solo i can do it pretty quickly because the sounds are in blocks (this is easier to demonstrate than write about) but a solo by Abercrombie or jarrett or Joe lovano, is a bit tougher because the rhythms differ, the choice of notes differ. There maybe the odd thing that is a signature, but essentially each solo has it's own character. You can still identify these people by sound and touch etc but the stories have a more personal connection to the tune. I think this is why sometimes Abercrombie doesn't quite make it. Because he isn't playing from connected blocks that kind of dictate the journey. I love that about him and all improvisors that court danger. Saying all this tho, I do love Joe's vibe. And many players that pre-determine what they play.

Mike

**fep** · 08-04-2008, 08:36 AM

Hi Mike,

I think we are in agreement. Joe played some beautiful music and was very skilled at what he did, and could play thousands of tunes, he had a highly developed gift and skill and and a great ear in the sense that he could play what he hears in his head.

But, I can't remember the last time I listened to him and I only ever bought a couple of his albums back around 1980 or so. The reason, for me he just didn't seem to break new ground, there was a 'sameness' for me about each tune he played. I wish Joe would have ventured outward and got into composing. There are other incredible guitarists that come to mind... George Benson for instance, I do have more albums of his but, with all that talent, why doesn't he write/compose music?

In contrast take someone like Chick Corea or Al Dimeola or Pat Metheny or Lee Ritenour or Fourplay etc. I have lots of their albums and continue to buy their albums. For lack of a better term it's the orginality and 'compositional' quality of their music that appeals to me.

**mike walker** · 08-04-2008, 05:54 PM

Frank,
Good point. I think when i put joe on (which is rare nowadays) i just need that drive and swing and bop thing. I pretty much Know where it's going, but the feel is so lovely. It's like Night Train by Oscar. It's dance music.

**4 strings** · 08-10-2008, 02:55 PM

I voted for Joe Pass
reason: he was just a GENIUS
:]

**gravitas** · 08-29-2008, 10:21 AM

Personally, I've never been able to predict a Joe Pass solo reliably. Maybe because I don't have everything he's ever played... Also my ear isn't perfect.

Certainly much of his material is preconceived, but he preconceived a lot. He had a deep reservoir to play from. When you get right down to it, I don't see any problem with the regurgitation of quote "stock" licks- given that the number of permutations of Joe Pass phrases is pretty big- and I'm sure he made something up during at least one dinner gig.

There is such a thing as an "improvised weapons" specialist in the army... But an improvised weapon (almost) never springs from thin air. Any time you sit down with no idea of what's going to come out of your instrument I'd still think of it as true improvisation. Hoorah Joe Pass.

**reventlov** · 08-30-2008, 07:01 AM

I think if you play a solo based on stock licks, you are still improvising provided you haven't actually planned in advance which of your licks you are going to use, and what order you're going to use them in. Joe Pass isn't the only one of course who did this, I think it's how a large percentage of jazz musicians approach their playing.

A player such as Abercrombie has a different approach and will genuinely attempt to make each solo something new and fresh - this to my mind is totally admirable and has a lot of artistic integrity, even when it doesn't produce worthwhile music. Sometimes just making the attempt is exciting enough, particularly in a live situation.

It seems to me though that a lot of players tread a middle ground - they have a stock of licks and phrases, they are skilled at combining them 'off the cuff' but they regard this as something to fall back on when they're not feeling too inspired, rather than thinking 'here are my licks and I'll stay within them because they form my comfort zone'. I know that's how I do it - I usually try to come up with something new when I play but I know that my stock of licks gives me a safety net if I'm below par. I also think it's probable that audience feedback is important in this equation - the more you feel that your listeners are into what you are doing, the more you respond by 'going for it' rather than playing it safe. I'm assuming a listening and interested audience there of course - if I'm doing background music at a corporate function, I'm not going to deviate much from my stock of licks or I won't be asked back to do another one.

I think that it's not about what does or does not constitute true improvisation, it's more about recognising that improvisation is a term which encompasses a wide range of skills, and can be done in many styles using many different approaches. It's not one language, it's many languages.

**reventlov** · 08-30-2008, 01:53 PM

"But i do love it when you hear and see the surprise in a player when he/she gets to a place that is new, simply because they turned down roads, or explored paths, that weren't neatly laid out before them."

Amen to that! It's when a player gets to that place that he/she really comes alive - that, to me, is when real creativity gets it's chance to surface, and that's when things get exciting. In fact I'll go a little further - getting to that place should be the object of the exercise; it's really, for me, what improvising is all about.

"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Frank Waldo Emerson (I love quoting clever guys who put things well!)

**gravitas** · 09-07-2008, 11:43 AM

I've been digging on a guy by the name of Jonathan Kreisberg lately... Yo:

**ShiffronLandren** · 10-30-2008, 12:02 PM

If I may, let me add my two cents to this whole "improvisation/not improvisation" conversation. There are certainly limits to "being inventive and creative". Jazz is an idiom, a form that presents certain constraints; and so-called "stock licks" (a perjorative term it seems) are part of it. There's this myth that great improvisers always play fresh stuff. Metheny addressed this myth in a GP from around '93, saying that one of the most important lessons he learned playing with the greats is that everyone has a vocabulary that they fall back on. Therefore, to say that so and so relies on stock licks misses the point. That's jazz. The risk in denying this is that the music becomes formless and unmelodic (re: Adam Rogers). And check out Sco giving lessons on Youtube. He says the same thing: "we all have our 'stuff' that we always play".

**fep** · 10-30-2008, 01:04 PM

Well put Shiffron,

At one point I gave up on improvising because I had set too high a standard. Realizing that pretty much everybody falls back on licks, scales, arps, patterns etc. let me lower my expectation and work on improve again.

**mike walker** · 10-30-2008, 02:24 PM

I love it when i think i know where an improviser is going and they wrong foot me. Some people rely on, and are somewhat lead by, their 'stock licks'. Metheny, stern and many others come to mind. Some people really improvise. They play with the space. They don't favour a beat to start on, or end on. Kenny wheeler, joe lovano, Keith Jarrett, Paul Bley, all come to mind.
Some need the light on all the time, and some don't mind the dark.
I love 'stock licks' when they have passion and dance without care and groove a'la Eddie harris and Oscar Peterson. I don't like stock licks when they are meant to stand alone in representing improvisation.
A big part of the impro is the journey. I don't want to be taken down the same street 10 times, or read the same book over and over again.
I have played with great players night after night who danced me down different streets. For some, that is the point. To say something without getting caught up in the same conversation night after night.

I think, after saying all this, the reality is somewhere in between for me.
Dealing in sound, it's not so easY to convey it on a forum. Things get mistaken for bloody-mindedness and i certainly don't mean to come across that way. But improvisation is a passion, a love for me. I love the freedom of it. To create melodies, supple or jagged or quirky or full of joy is almost a calling for me.

Very good points made Shiffron.

Mike

**DMatthewsBand07** · 10-30-2008, 06:38 PM

I liked your first line. I think that's where we all have to draw the line between relying on licks and using licks as connectors or building blocks. It's been said on many threads... I think regarding playing outside... that for outside playing to serve its purpose, you have to define what's inside. So the stock licks serve as a norm that you can grow to expect. The same way that writers will use an old cliche that's been used a hundred times over. How can you throw the audience for a loop if you don't define what they're "supposed" to expect in the first place.

**frisellfan19** · 10-30-2008, 10:37 PM

The thing about all my favorite guitar players Bill Frisell, John Abercrombie, Ben Monder, Pat Metheny, and Jim Hall is they all have a unique style and approach to music. They all have such an individual sound. It is their own. That's what attracted me to jazz guitar in the first place and really to jazz music in general. You had all of these outstanding players, but they were all different. It just seems like jazz music allows so much honesty to come through. Perhaps this is what lead to jazz becoming an underground music with the inception of bebop, I mean the very fabric of our society now hides the truth or somehow finds a way to cover it up and jazz music isn't about that at all, in my opinion, it's about revealing yourself and being honest with who you are. The notes are my voice. The rhythm and harmony are what drive you to that creative place we all aspire to enter.

**mike walker** · 10-31-2008, 05:58 AM

Good point DMB, Excellent post Fris. One should be able to throw a curve ball whilst still staying inside. Jarrett does this all the time. Herbie throws outside curve balls like there was no tomorrow. When i'm teaching someone who is sick of their own 'stock licks' i get them to improvise in quarter notes in a four fret space. They cannot leave that four fret space. Try it. Play on an easy standard like Blue Bossa or Autumn leaves using only the 9th to the 12th fret. Whatever key ya like. Play in quarters. Stock licks gone.
This can open you up to a purer kind of impro.

Mike

**JohnW400** · 11-03-2008, 02:09 PM

If you want to talk about stock licks, let's talk Pat Martino. He has some of the most recognized riff's you'll ever hear. That open E thing he does and that slides into E from D# and hits G for measure after measure.

But he is still one of my favorite players. The album Conciousness was an epiphany for me.

**mike walker** · 11-03-2008, 02:48 PM

Conciousness-mega album. El hombre was great too around that time, with a brilliant take on Just friends.
For me that's really when licks have a place. The momentum. The swing. The repetition is part of the whole vibe.

MiKe

**Banksia** · 12-03-2008, 01:02 AM

I had to vote for Tal Farlow, but not far ahead of Hall,Burrell,Raney,McLaughlin and on and on....

**mangotango** · 12-03-2008, 08:53 AM

The best thing about this forum in general and this thread in particular is that I've picked up on so many names of guys of whom I hadn't really heard before (Rosenwinkel, Moreno) and also I've started listening more closely to players that I'd under appreciated before (Wes, Frisell). My knowledge is expanding and I'll hopefully be a better player as a result.