Wes Montgomery on Talent versus Determination and Hard Work

[AndyV]

WES MONTGOMERY – ON TALENT vs. DETERMINATION
"Natural talent? Now, I've had a lot of arguments on this. My interpretation of natural talent, or gift, is something that you don't have to indulge in at all. I mean, like if I was a natural electronic engineer, and you showed me a television set for the first time, I would see right away what was wrong with it. But if I have to study reasons why, and build up my own theory, I'm putting hard efforts into it. Now, over a period of time, I might make that come out where people will respect it. But they won't be going through the hardships - they'll just be seeing it at the point of completion. This is where people have been mistaken about me. They don't know about the times when I'd be sitting up, thinking. If I'd go to a movie show, I'd be looking at the picture, but I'd be hearing changes. You understand? This is how much determination I had for playing."
- Wes Montgomery

[wintermoon]

there are a lot of misconceptions about Wes, like how hard he practiced to get that good.
no matter how talented you are, you have to put in the time to achieve anything.

he may have had a great ear which might have made it a little easier than the average Joe, but he certainly woodshedded a ton to became what he became.

[Frank67]

IMHO ... Talent is overrated. It simply means some people get there a bit or even a lot faster ... But without wanting it, nobody ever gets great at anything. Wanting something and really meaning it and putting in the work is much more important than talent ... IMHO Wes being Wes, is just the great guy he was and had the nicest way of saying that. He left us way too early!

[wintermoon]

another misconception is that Wes was a total ear player and had no concept of chords etc.
the videos of him w/the Pim Jacobs trio that have surfaced show him teaching Pim the chords to "The End Of A Love Affair"

he may not have been able to read notated chords, but he knew plenty about them.

[christianm77]

there are a lot of misconceptions about Wes, like how hard he practiced to get that good.
no matter how talented you are, you have to put in the time to achieve anything.

he may have had a great ear which might have made it a little easier than the average Joe, but he certainly woodshedded a ton to became what he became.

How do we know he didn't shed to get his ears that good? Transcribing the Charlie Christian discography would certainly sharpen up your musicianship.

[sgcim]

Wes' ears weren't beyond reproach; according to a CG teacher I had, who used to be an accomplished jazz player, he saw Wes playing a Horace Silver tune in a club. They finished the tune, and Wes asked the guys what key they played it in.
They told him they were in Cm. Wes said, 'What? I was playing it in Gm!"

He also said that Wes was able to play great solos at the same time he was having conversations with people in the club. Maybe that's what scared him away from JG to CG...

[princeplanet]

Talent vs Determination eh? Well, in Wes' case it's not only both, but both in extreme measures.

Freak. Of. Nature.

[Ol' Fret]

Tim Fitzgerald: Have you heard that quote where Wes says something like, “I never practice my guitar. From time to time I just open the case and throw in a piece of raw meat?”

Harold Mabern: Well, I think I heard that quote too, yeah. But no, he practiced. He had a sense of humor too, you know? But he was always practicing. I know for a fact he was always practicing. I’d go out and come by his room and hear him, and I wouldn’t disturb him. He put a lot of time on the instrument.


My former violin teacher (born around 1900 - RIP) who coached not few top violinists up in his eighties, used to say:
"Ten percent talent and ninety percent hard work."
I have never seen any reason to doubt this.

[citizenk74]

A dear friend of mine used to say "Talent is God's gift to you. What you do with it is your gift to God".

[christianm77]

Easy to blame one's lack of progress on lack of talent, and give up.

Easy for a teacher to blame a student's lack of progress on lack of aptitude.

[christianm77]

He also said that Wes was able to play great solos at the same time he was having conversations with people in the club. Maybe that's what scared him away from JG to CG...

Kenny Werner says that you should be talk freely/have a conversation while playing. That's one definition of effortless mastery....

[joe2758]

Master classical guitarists can talk and play the most difficult pieces at the same time (although I do realize improvising is different).
I remember when I was a CG student I attended a master class with Jason Vieaux and he was talking about the physical aspect of performance (sort of how one would compose themselves while playing, eg somber, intense etc...)and he demonstrated playing an insane intense and fast Brazilian piece (or something) while slowly rocking his body back and forth and kind of introspectively gazing toward the sky (as one might see any performer doing during a slow beautiful piece).
Then, he played a slow beautiful piece (still an extremely difficult one) while taking quick breaths and making these kind of jerky motions with wide intense eyes (as one would see any performer doing during the first piece). It was really funny; I probably didn't explain it well enough.
Anyway, my point was that these guys can play those pieces talking, jogging, sleeping, or fishing

[christianm77]

Master classical guitarists can talk and play the most difficult pieces at the same time (although I do realize improvising is different).

How is improvisation different from playing a piece of music you have fully internalised?

[joe2758]

I wish I knew! I'm relatively happy with how I can perform a written piece or an arrangement I have time to work out, but my lack of improvisatory ability is the bane of my guitar existence

[joe2758]

I request a Christian rant video on this subject.

[Jonah]

Talent is passion... when you feel passion for something you just do not notice the hard work you do... )))

[TH]

Kenny Werner says that you should be talk freely/have a conversation while playing. That's one definition of effortless mastery....

That's his neural hardwiring. There are things he says that make sense to him but aren't necessarily the criteria for the entire populace. Geeze, I can't even talk freely and have a conversation when I'm one on one with another person.
And if what Kenny says is the gospel, then I guess nobody should tell Tom Harrell. Heyyyy, how does an opera singer achieve effortless mastery?

David

[christianm77]

That's his neural hardwiring. There are things he says that make sense to him but aren't necessarily the criteria for the entire populace. Geeze, I can't even talk freely and have a conversation when I'm one on one with another person.
And if what Kenny says is the gospel, then I guess nobody should tell Tom Harrell. Heyyyy, how does an opera singer achieve effortless mastery?

David

Well when you are an opera singer, you have to know the music backwards, mastered it completely technically by the time you turn up to the first music call, where you are given notes on interpretation, dynamics etc.

When you perform it on stage, you are following some weird ass stage instructions given to you by the Director and also acting (or 'acting' in my case.) Professional singers must have the music absolutely internalised so that they can inhabit the role.

The best opera singing not always the most beautiful singing incidentally - the singing is at the service of the drama (see Maria Callas.)

Needless to say, you also have lots of words to remember, quite often in foreign.

I know this because I've sung a few opera roles. I always underestimated just how well the music had to be known, and how well it had to be sung in.

[christianm77]

I request a Christian rant video on this subject.

Improvisation is the highest form of art for me, because when you see a score for the first time[... T]he first reaction is gut, instinct [...] We only get to this possible stage of making music[as art] - possible - the moment we have digested all that and we achieve a kind of conscious naivete which allows us to improvise it, which allows us to play it at that moment as if it is on the spur of the moment. [...] It's a very blessed state in the life of a human being.

Daniel Barenboim in his 2006 Reith Lecture,
London, May 6th, 2006

[dingusmingus]

another misconception is that Wes was a total ear player and had no concept of chords etc.
the videos of him w/the Pim Jacobs trio that have surfaced show him teaching Pim the chords to "The End Of A Love Affair"

he may not have been able to read notated chords, but he knew plenty about them.

Pat Metheny said this in the liner notes to the Jazz icons DVD:

These few minutes in discussion with pianist Jacobs lay to rest one of the mythologies surrounding Wes and the nature of his musicianship. How often in liner notes and articles have we been dutifully reminded of Wes’ supposed inability to read music, the fact that he was “self-taught” and all of the other points of lore trotted out to somehow mystify the genius that is utterly self-evident in the legacy that is his music?In a particularly illuminating exchange, we see Wes discussing the harmony with pianist Jacobs. In requesting one of his favorite variations on the tune’s descending harmonies we hear a musician not only fluent in the traditional nomenclature of harmony, but one who is thoroughly enlightened, eloquent and direct. (Instead of Bb-7/Eb7/AbMaj7 direct to the following Ab-7/Db7/GbMaj7, Wes requests that an additional II-V anticipating the next change a half step higher be added to set up the next sequence, resulting in Bb-7/Eb7/AbMaj7/A-7/D7/ then onto Ab-7/Db7/GbMaj7 etc.)

It is somewhat of a relief to hear him lay it out in such clear musical vocabulary. It was always apparent in Wes’ music that he had devised one of the most detailed harmonic conceptions ever on the instrument, and as a beginner, when I read album notes and magazine pieces that harped on some kind of almost savant-like description of Wes’ insight into musical invention, I often struggled with trying to imagine how exactly he might have arrived at some of the amazingly ingenious results that infuse his playing without at least occasionally thinking in these kinds of terms (tritone relationships, substitutions, etc.).

Here's the whole thing:
Pat Metheny : Writings: Wes Montgomery Jazz Icons DVD Liner Notes

[princeplanet]

Pat Metheny said this in the liner notes to the Jazz icons DVD:


Here's the whole thing:
Pat Metheny : Writings: Wes Montgomery Jazz Icons DVD Liner Notes

I wanna say something that may put a few noses out of joint, so apologies in advance... But it's this: Jazz players, in fact all (OK, maybe not all) musicians from all times have probably felt the inclination to downplay how hard they practice. Like the magician who never reveals how much preparation goes into the "prestige", musicians want their audience and peers alike to retain some mystique. And both for the same reason- they want you to be swept away by the magic. Heck, I want to be swept away too, not just in listening to music, but films, theatre, art etc...

So on both sides, the illusion is protected, as it should be. Sure, we may discuss our methods to our peers more so than with the audience, but even there we find this tendency to downplay. There was a masterclass Andreas Oberg was paid to do (I assume) where the burning question on all the students' lips was "how did you learn to play so fast?". With a shrug of his shoulders he offered " I don't know, I just never had any problem with speed", and then moved on to the next question. No doubt the poor unsuspecting student who asked the question was suddenly made to feel like he'd just become aware of the invisible wall that divides the Talented from the Determined. He may have slunk away, tail between legs, thinking there was no point even trying to learn to play like Andreas. With this new epiphany looming over him, he probably adjusted his hopes on the instrument sharply downward. Yep, geniuses are obviously born.

No doubt they are, but Andreas is probably no genius, and may or may not have forgotten the long arduous hours he put in as a youngster to gain his right hand facility (which is impressive I might add). So why play it down? Well, my guess is he wants the kid to think he's some "kind" of genius, to be admired from a safe distance, to be placed above earthly men and onto the same mantle shared by the Gods (Wes and others). And why not? It's good for business, from both sides. Mystique is a good thing, for artist and punter alike, although not so great for the naive student....

And so on to Wes' throwaway gag that he didn't practice, just threw a piece of meat into the guitar case from time to time. Yeah right, did you you ever believe it? It's showmanship. It's magic....

[christianm77]

I wanna say something that may put a few noses out of joint, so apologies in advance... But it's this: Jazz players, in fact all (OK, maybe not all) musicians from all times have probably felt the inclination to downplay how hard they practice. Like the magician who never reveals how much preparation goes into the "prestige", musicians want their audience and peers alike to retain some mystique. And both for the same reason- they want you to be swept away by the magic. Heck, I want to be swept away too, not just in listening to music, but films, theatre, art etc...

Interesting point. I would be inclined to agree... Old school musicians were very protective about their craft. Now everyone's much more nerdy and sharing, we don't mind talking about how much work we do.

On the other hand, I do still bump into musicians who claim not to practice.

That said, if Pat Metheny and Kurt Rosenwinkel warm up for two hours before every gig, then I should probably do that too :-)

So on both sides, the illusion is protected, as it should be. Sure, we may discuss our methods to our peers more so than with the audience, but even there we find this tendency to downplay. There was a masterclass Andreas Oberg was paid to do (I assume) where the burning question on all the students' lips was "how did you learn to play so fast?". With a shrug of his shoulders he offered " I don't know, I just never had any problem with speed", and then moved on to the next question. No doubt the poor unsuspecting student who asked the question was suddenly made to feel like he'd just become aware of the invisible wall that divides the Talented from the Determined. He may have slunk away, tail between legs, thinking there was no point even trying to learn to play like Andreas. With this new epiphany looming over him, he probably adjusted his hopes on the instrument sharply downward. Yep, geniuses are obviously born.

o doubt they are, but Andreas is probably no genius, and may or may not have forgotten the long arduous hours he put in as a youngster to gain his right hand facility (which is impressive I might add). So why play it down? Well, my guess is he wants the kid to think he's some "kind" of genius, to be admired from a safe distance, to be placed above earthly men and onto the same mantle shared by the Gods (Wes and others). And why not? It's good for business, from both sides. Mystique is a good thing, for artist and punter alike, although not so great for the naive student....

That said, I actually think Oberg is on the level. I've never had much trouble playing fast compared to some of my students, although I don't play quite as many notes as Andreas!

It's probably hard to explain something that comes very easily when you are not primarily a teacher of the guitar. (Which is why lessons from star guitar players are not always helpful.)

That's why we have Troy Grady with his camera. In this case, it's not talent but good fortune to stumble across a technique that works really well.

But, if we had a proper pedagogy, we'd all be able to play as fast as Mr Oberg. We don't.

However, I would be surprised if Andreas hadn't spent some serious hours shedding GJ right hand. That stuff you do have to be taught (not that he uses purist GJ right hand - I think he knows what it is though.)

And so on to Wes' throwaway gag that he didn't practice, just threw a piece of meat into the guitar case from time to time. Yeah right, did you you ever believe it? It's showmanship. It's magic....

I think it's a joke - it's funny, it made me laugh. Anyway, it's obviously untrue if you know anything about Wes's story at all :-)

[princeplanet]

.....That said, I actually think Oberg is on the level. I've never had much trouble playing fast compared to some of my students, although I don't play quite as many notes as Andreas!....

When I was a kid I wowed all my guitar player friends with speed (the blues/rock kind...), and always knew it was a cheap trick but loved the attention it got me, especially when even the older kids (I think I was 14) used the "genius" word! I wasn't brought back down to earth until I was around 16 or so (trying to transcribe George Benson!). But during those years my best friend gave up playing because I made him feel hopeless. I secretly wanted to show him how easy I learned what I knew, but decided to keep the "myth" going...

Fact is, it probably wasn't as easy as I thought. I probably put in 30 hours a week from age 12 without it feeling like work, it was all playtime... Nowadays I see clips from the other Andreas (Varady)- the real deal Prodigy - playing Jazz monstrously as a 12 year old, and I'm tempted to just accept that some kids are just "special". But along with the abundant aptitude there just had to be a strict teacher in there from say age 5 or something making sure (in Gypsy tradition) the kid put in 60 hours a week or something.

With great talent, the practice part is easy in the sense that it's always fun. It's hard to stop practicing when you have the gift. Just like people with a great. effortless voice can't stop themselves from singing. I know the look on the kid's face almost looks like he's bored, but surely he could not have progressed as well as he had under sufferance?

[Jonah]

But there's unexplainable talent too of course... but I think it has a little bit different nature ... I would call it inhuman...

There's always something as poet said that is ' befor or Out of any experience in it'

Or in other words - any talent probably has divine origine but the most precious is the one cultured and developed through human personality... embodied with personal experience and maturity...

With 'wonderkids' it's still always a question... will they be able to outgrow their gif to fil it with personal will and direct it... (sometimes the question even: will they be able to survive it?)

some can...

and some just stay prodigy kids - phenomenons witnessing irrational nature of being

[princeplanet]

They told him they were in Cm. Wes said, 'What? I was playing it in Gm!"

....

Cool, so Wes was playing in C Dorian #11 ? (Fourth mode Harmonic minor). Why not? It's a cool sound...