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Hi!
Is anyone aware of any recordings (video or audio) from 1955 of Kenny Burrell with Oscar Peterson and Ray Brown. After graduating from Wayne State University in 1955, Burrell went on tour for six months with the OP Trio, substituting for Herb Ellis. I've been looking for recordings from that period but haven't stumbled on any with Kenny Burrell.
So?
Thanks,
Harri
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05-11-2016 08:39 AM
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Oh, that would be fun! I hope there are some recordings out there.
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A friend (a lurker here) contacted me about this...he has an extensive live recording/bootleg collection and he says unfortunately, he's never come across a recording of Kenny with Oscar. Too bad. Kenny would have been a great fit for that group.
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"Kenny would have been a great fit for that group"
we'll never know for sure, but it seems to me that Kessel and Ellis would be a better fit.
Kenny's sorta of a more mellow player than those two, and Oscar's a burner.
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That's my sense too. For whatever reason, Kenny wasn't with Oscar for long. They're both giants but maybe it wasn't a good fit.
Originally Posted by wintermoon
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I think Kenny had plenty of gas in the tank, so to speak.
But I also like the idea of what KB's more modern, bluesy, electric style would have brought to that group.
Maybe that made him a bad fit...I dunno...but sometimes Oscar's music just sounds...old...to me.
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Burrell was subbing for Ellis, who was sick. It was always Herb's gig, and nobody was surprised when he reclaimed his seat after regaining his health...least of all Burrell.
I think Burrell would have blended in fine, especially at that time. Check out the live Kenny Dorham CD, recorded a few days before Burrell's first Blue Note sides, where he's burning on straight up Bop tunes the whole night.
I'd love to hear a tape of this iteration of the OP Trio too, but think it's lost to history like Miles jamming with Hendrix or Wes' even shorter stint with the classic Coltrane quartet.
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And Prince with Miles: Originally Posted by ingeneri
Prince & Miles Davis
Anyway, back OT, Kenny would have earned some stripes playing with that trio, that's for sure. He has always been a guitarist's guitarist, like Barney Kessel, but I bet he had to work his butt off.
Maybe OP was "old-fashioned", but he was tight, could swing, and was a total professional. There weren't a lot of guitarists who could hang with the Trio when they were cooking. After Ellis died, he went with a drummer for the trio, and played with a lot of other non-guitarists like Milt Jackson.Last edited by Doctor Jeff; 05-12-2016 at 12:11 PM.
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funny just listened to burrell's all night long ...cut in 1956...he's burnin on it..he could keep up with anybody right out of the gate..burrells insane good
cheers
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i remember hearing KB with OP on an old vinyl record that I took out from the library when I was a little tyke.
It was some type of anthology of OP's trios from that era. I was surprised to hear that KB did very well and kept up with OP.
I used to tape all the jazz LPs with guitarists on them, but I don't know if i taped over it, or where it is, because I gave up putting them in order years ago. If I stumble across it, I'll post about it.
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Herb Ellis started missing gigs in the mid-50s. He fell into a bottle. He admitted that until he stopped drinking he was a very sick man. OP and RB understood and carried him all they could. They loved him like a brother and wished, more than anything, for him to get well--which he did. Ultimately, Ellis had to get off the road for years in order to stay the course.
The OP3 gig was Ellis' as long as he wanted it. However, ultimately he wanted his health more. He chose wisely and lived a long and productive life.
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Great post Harri. As you seem to be pretty clued up on Kenny Burrell's discography, I'm sure you're aware of another piano trio session that KB participated in circa '56, with the Ronnell Bright Trio. I just wanted to post about it for others who may not be aware of it, as it's a lesser known item in Burrell's catalog.
I'm very fond of this session, originally released on Savoy records, and Burrell makes a significant enough contribution to make it a very worthwhile purchase.
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And dragging right back off topic- Miles & Prince, 1987: Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
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Kenny Burrell did a lot of records. And the more I listen, the more I think---he never did anything bad, or substandard.
His classical training and his sight-reading ability make me believe that there is a lot more to him than "a jazz guy who keeps it simple and bluesy". I almost think he could play anything he wanted. And I'll admit that of the 100 or so records he is on, I haven't listened to more than a half dozen.
Someone earlier mentioned Oscar Peterson and Barney Kessel. They played together in 1952-53 acc'd to The Rough Guide to Jazz, and appeared together on some JATP recordings. (Somewhere I've seen or heard a clip, and remember thinking Oscar P. did not leave much room for a guitarist, though he used one fairly frequently.)Last edited by goldenwave77; 05-11-2016 at 10:44 PM.
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They've got Oscar Peterson's autobiography in the local library so I looked up Kenny Burrell in the index.
Oscar is quite complimentary about Kenny, calling him a player of 'rare talent'. He describes him as 'laid back/introspective' and not a 'cooker', but says that he fitted into the trio very well during Herb's absence.
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I really don't get all the "laid back" comments about Burrell. Maybe later in his career, but if you dig the stuff he was playing around this time, he was cooking.
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Listening to the OP trio with Herb Ellis records--essential listening for sure!--I am impressed how similar Ellis and Burrell are in their approach. Ellis sure makes it sound easy, even when he's obviously playing like a demon. Burrell is usually a little more restrained, but with the same melodic sense.
There's a song called HG's Blues that I assume is an homage to Hank Garland. Ellis had a bit of that country twang to his playing as well.
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I hear a lot of city mouse/country mouse differences too, though.
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but 'cooking' and 'laid back' ain't incompatible
burrell cooks like crazy - pretty much always - and is never anything but laid back
isn't that more or less familiar - prez-type - jazz territory?
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
i get this
i often think of bk as a rural kind of vibe (back home) and kb as an urban kind of vibe (all night long)
herb has a more back home sensibility too, seems to me
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When I think laid back, I don't necessarily think "spare" or "sparse." Jim Hall played a spare style, but was hardly laid back.
Bassist Ray Brown was the king of playing just the right notes--no more than the ones that fit--but he was not laid back...quite the opposite, in fact.
When I think about laid back players, I think about where they fit in vis-a-vis the time scheme. Some players "lay back" in the 4/4 meter--i.e., they hold back and create some tension, playing notes sort of at the ass end of the beat. Other players push the beat a little. Yet other players more or less consistently play metrically on the beat. (Now, everybody takes liberties and pushes, pulls and tugs at the beat for effect. I am talking about where they more or less consistently show up vis-a-vis the beat.)
If you read much about players who played with Ray Brown, or if you listen to his extensive catalog, you will find that he was consistently a guy who played, AND LOUDLY, on the front end of the beat--he always pushed, slightly. Other guys would describe his style as BAM, BAM, BAM because his notes just exploded right on the front end of the beat--and with considerable right-hand force. (I bet Ray's handshake was memorable.)
I always thought of Jim Hall as a right in the middle player. I guess the most laid back players (unless you want to count the funk/soul guys at Stax Records--damned, they pulled the beat almost back to the next measure, sometimes--for conscious effect) I can think of were Louis Armstrong and Miles Davis, on ballads. It's like the meter was made of Silly Putty, but what a wonderful effect on music. I think that Louis Armstrong, almost single-handed, unhitched popular music from the "clip-clop" _on-the-beat_ meter that guys like George M. Cohan had yoked it to. (Think "Over There.")
I am not advancing a thesis on the virtues of time unleashed, here. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all approach to time, anyway. Music is a very, very big tent. As much as I love Miles and Louis--unbounded, that is--my guy is Ray Brown, who had a VERY different feel for time. I suspect we all have different feels for time and must work with metronomes in order to have a half-chance of being able to play together.
When it is all said and done, however, BOTH Herb Ellis and Kenny Burrell cook. To do otherwise is to get kicked out of Oscar Peterson's kitchen.
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ray brown loved wes montgomery (or his playing anyway)
i've worked out solos by bird and sonny rollins and bud powell
the only other guy i've worked out note for note is ray brown
he cast a spell on me at an oscar gig when he came onto the stage on his own (at the very beginning) and started playing an intro type repeated figure on the bass (inviting herb and then oscar to join in, as they did, one at a time, over the next 64 bars)
and with sonny rollins on way out west.
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Originally Posted by wintermoon
please check Kenny (mellow be gone) with jimmy smith..and jimmy was a step or two beyond a burner..
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Thanks for the replies. The "Bright's Spot" is a nice find, I really like it. I know that Burrell also played with Bill Evans in a duo setting. Does anybody know if they made any trio recordings?
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from kb interview- Kenny Burrell | Vintage Guitar® magazine
"You also worked with Oscar Peterson.
Yes, in 1955. I’d just graduated from Wayne State University and was about to move to New York. Herb Ellis was playing with Oscar’s trio, but had to take time off for his health. Oscar and (bassist) Ray Brown were in Detroit and came to see me at Kline’s Show Bar, one of the two big jazz clubs in town. They offered me the job that night. I went on the road with them for about six months.
It was an enlightening and growth-inducing experience, playing with those two giants. I learned about making music with a trio and working with guitar and piano. The main thing is to listen and complement each other – do whatever will make the music work. I was glad I could handle it. I also learned a lot about life on the road, how to cope. I sometimes roomed with Ray. He got up early and started practicing; that was his routine. And mine, too, as a result. And, I took up golf."
also read in a guitar player interview that kb credited his getting the job with oscar peterson because of his love and understanding of nat king cole trio guitarist oscar moore..and how he worked in the trio dynamic of that band
cheers
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