The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I've heard his praises sung but haven't heard much of his playing or much about the method he taught. Would love to hear from those who knew / studied with him, or who just know more about him.

    A key passage:
    >>>>Back in the 1920s, when Joe's career was getting started, he wrote that he was "greatly inspired by the artistry of pianist Art Tatum."
    "After hearing him, I realized that I couldn't play on the guitar the same complex and intricate arpeggios and scale passages that he played on the piano," he wrote. "Upon examination, I discovered the problem was in the use of the pick. This led me to develop a completely new approach to using the pick. ... This new approach gave me greater efficiency, flexibility, and a smoother-flowing sound."
    In simple language, the method is a three-octave system that combines alternate picking, which is the straight up and down stroke, with directional picking, in which the pick flows in the direction of movement toward the next string. It allows the player to produce a smooth and even sound while playing complex patterns.<<<<<



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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    legendary around here, he taught just about everyone @ some point.
    the article mentioned that he was jazz violin great Joe Venuti's cousin. he also played violin extremely well and was nicknamed 'little Joe'

    I never studied w/him but knew of him through others. I have his one album as leader, it's eh....

  4. #3

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    Mark. Wasn't he Robert Conti's teacher or am I mixing him up with some else?

  5. #4

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    Robert Conti knew him, yes. Conti was the first person I heard mention Joe Sgro. But I'm not sure how much Conti sudied with him. I should send him an email....

  6. #5

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    I took lesson s from Bob in the late 70's, and from what I recall he only had a dozen or so lessons with him (Sgro)early on in his teen years. Bob is largely self taught i.e. like a lot of musicians of his day he played in local and regional pop, blues and soul bands and he played a lot. When I was taking lessons from Bob, he played probably played 6-7 hours a day. Many of his student were like me half @ssed guitar players who functioned as Bob's all day rhythm machine.

    Bob in the 70's sounds like the Bob of today. His picking style and speed was already set at the time I met him. At the time he primarily played an ES 175 or borrowed one of his students guitars. The joke was none of us actually thought he owned his own guitar. He played in a black easy chair and laid back in it when he would solo over changes. One thing I learned from Bob was that picks don't really matter i.e. it is how one controls it. At the time he played with an ultra thin blue herco pick that felt like a piece of a baseball card. I never got a tone that I liked out of it.

    Taking lessons from Bob was an interesting experience. He was a big practical joker and an out of control teacher at times. One time me and my bass playing friend were locked in his studio until my friend cleaned the bathroom and I finished learning the chord sequence to Green Dolphin street or some other standard. I worked a day job in a shipyard and so leaving his studio at one AM was a killer.

    He had a wide variety of students coming through his Jacksonville studio everything from bass players to string players. It was a fun time.
    Last edited by rob taft; 04-27-2016 at 04:39 PM.

  7. #6

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    I think Tony Decaprio studied with him.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by sjl
    I think Tony Decaprio studied with him.
    I've read something of Tony's that mentioned Joe Sgro and his "Slur-Alternate System." ("Slur" here does not simply mean sounding a note without picking it. Joe played violin before he played guitar and I think for him, on guitar, "slur" covered "consecutive picking" as well.) I think Tony used to post here, so I assume he remains a member. If anyone knows him, he might appreciate an invitation to chime in here with some insights about Joe's technique and teaching.

  9. #8

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    Tony's in Europe now, playing a lot of jazz clubs. He studied with both Sgro and Sandole. He hipped me to some arpeggio studies that as you said, combined consecutive picking with slurs, by one of Sgro's students.
    I'll try to search my emails for it.
    He thought VERY highly of Joe, and felt that Sgro was a better player than Johnny Smith. He said Sgro had also performed Schoenberg's "Serenade" with members of the Philadelphia Symphony orchestra.

    Unfortunately, the one LP of Sgro's that was posted was a commercial record he did at the time. I don't know if there are any recordings that showed what Joe could really do.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    Tony's in Europe now, playing a lot of jazz clubs. He studied with both Sgro and Sandole. He hipped me to some arpeggio studies that as you said, combined consecutive picking with slurs, by one of Sgro's students.
    I'll try to search my emails for it.
    He thought VERY highly of Joe, and felt that Sgro was a better player than Johnny Smith. He said Sgro had also performed Schoenberg's "Serenade" with members of the Philadelphia Symphony orchestra.

    Unfortunately, the one LP of Sgro's that was posted was a commercial record he did at the time. I don't know if there are any recordings that showed what Joe could really do.
    Thanks for the info. Someone told me Dennis Sandole had tapes of Joe playing incredible stuff, but that material is not available to the general public. He didn't publish any method books either, did he?

  11. #10

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    The closest thing to a method book is the one Joe's student put out. I emailed TD about this thread, so hopefully he'll show up.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    The closest thing to a method book is the one Joe's student put out. I emailed TD about this thread, so hopefully he'll show up.
    Do you mean this?
    Guitar Master: or Advanced 3 octave method

    I sent James Hillman an email and he responded, telling me he would be happy to chat about Joe's approach to picking. I emailed him a link to this thread and hope he participates in it.

    (I am unfamiliar with this material, though I'm going to get the "Beginning Scales" book in order to get a sense of what some of the fingerings are and what the picking directions are like.)

  13. #12

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    Has anyone here worked with this material? I can't help but be curious.

    O, I've also heard Jimmy Bruno's name mentioned in connection with Sgro, though in one case the claim was that Joe Lano, not Joe Sgro, was the more formative influence on Jimmy's picking technique. (Jimmy's approach sounds similar to Joe's, though I have not yet seen any of Hillman's books, so I may be overlooking important differences.)

  14. #13

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    Here's a link to a Googlereads excerpt from a book called "Musical Improvisation."

    https://books.google.com/books?id=dO...20sgro&f=false

    It says Jimmy learned the technique from Joe Lano, who had learned it from Joe Sgro. (At least, that's how I read this passage.)

  15. #14

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    Fascinating stuff. Both TD and JB pick with the forearm, and use consecutive (economy) picking.
    I've heard Sandole used forearm picking also, but I never heard if he used economy picking like Sgro did.

    Chuck Wayne (whom TD studied with also) was opposed to alt. picking, and spread the economy picking gospel in NYC; many jazz guitarists over the age of 60 studied with him. I wonder if he had any contact with Sgro?

    I didn't know Sgro and Sandole were Jehovah Witnesses; I thought they were devout Catholics.

  16. #15

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    George Benson is a Jehova Witness as well.
    Tony Decaprio teaches what he calls Strategic picking, a very smart strategy about picking.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by sjl
    Tony Decaprio teaches what he calls Strategic picking, a very smart strategy about picking.
    Can you tell us more about that? Is it close to what Joe Sgro taught? (Not that I'm very sure what Joe taught.)

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Can you tell us more about that? Is it close to what Joe Sgro taught? (Not that I'm very sure what Joe taught.)
    Sgro called the slur alternate picking technique by imitating the way a violin is played and I think DeCaprio teachings are pretty close to that.

    http://www.tonydecaprio.com/scores/jjg0206.pdf

  19. #18

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    On a related front: one of the books Hillman offers is Hanon exercises. (Famous exercises to develop piano technique.) Anyone here worked with those exercises? (There are several publications of Hanon exercises for guitar; I know nothing about them beyond seeing a YouTube clip of one of exercise.)

    Curious...

  20. #19

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    Hmm. I've done the Hanon exercises for piano, on piano. A lot. Too much. Too far removed from actual playing, even of scalar passages, to be of much use, and adapting them to jazz, or to guitar... Seems to me that adapting actual usable licks/riffs and running those thru changes would accomplish the same technical ends with more musical means. But I don't mean to hijack the thread here. Just my 2cents.

  21. #20

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    The Hanon exercises are useful for both LH and RH technique. I can only get them up to about 160bpm as 16ths, because they go back and forth from string to string, and that can get pretty difficult to alt. pick.

    I've tried to economy pick them, but I can't get them anywhere near the tempo I can alt. pick them.
    I remember doing a gig with a pianist i hadn't played with before, and I was warming up with some Hanon, and he seemed to be really puzzled about why I was practicing them. He asked me why I was practicing them...

    One guitar teacher I used to sub for used to give all his students Hanon, and they had good chops for how long they'd been playing, but they were like him; good chops, and not much else.

  22. #21

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    You are what you play, if you only practice scales you play scales, if you practice lines, you play lines.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by sjl
    You are what you play, if you only practice scales you play scales, if you practice lines, you play lines.
    Well, no one has suggested practicing only scales.

    My understanding of the Hanon exercises is that they develop technique---finger independence, strength, agility.

    Of course, one may develop technique some other way. I'm not recommending Hanon, just curious about it. (I have learned a few Wohlfhart etudes, which are violin studies, and enjoy playing them.)

  24. #23

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    I'm not trying to derail the thread -- RIP to Joe Sgro, who seems to have had an influence on nearly every South Philly player of note in his day -- but since some of the talk has turned to technique studies, I thought I could share these Kreutzer studies I came across awhile back:

    Alan Hanlon - Kreutzer Violin Studies for Guitar - Documents

  25. #24

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    I didn't say answering your comment but as a general comment about scale practicing. We can separate muscular playing from musical playing, art vs craftsmanship. The problem is when we spend 3/4 of our time doing the first and 1/4 trying to speak with your instrument. And, of course, I am playing of myself, but sure someone is or has been in the same vicious circle.

  26. #25

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    The mention of Kreutzer studies is okay but this isn't a general thread about developing technique. It's about Joe Sgro and the picking technique he taught.

    James Hillman, who studied with Sgro and whose material Sgro recommended to players, presents a selection of Hanon material in light of Sgro's picking approach. So it wouldn't just be the notes of the exercises as might appear in another book but also picking indications that reflect Sgro's "slur-alternate" approach. Also, the original 'Hanon for Guitar' book covered only the first position (-up to the fourth fret), whereas Hillman's version is based on a 3-octave scale, which was central to Sgro's playing and teaching.

    That said, I'm still interested in learning more about Sgro's approach to picking and hope someone else who studied with him chimes in here. I also am curious about his scale fingerings. How are they like (or unlike) the ones, say, Jimmy Bruno teaches? I hope to find out.