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In the last two days, NPR (Terry Gross of 'Fresh Air') has been focusing a lot on JL. They had a ten minute review of his new CD, "Arc of Light", and then today they had a 30 minute interview with JL, where he said he 'blew his hand out' at a concert a year or two ago.
His first and second fingers stopped responding to him, and he had to finish the concert with just his ring finger and pinky. He consulted a doctor, and they couldn't find any nerve damage.
He mentioned it to a musician, and that musician thought that it sounded like focal dystonia, a neurological disorder where the brain sends the wrong messages to his hand. JL didn't mention any doctor diagnosing him with FD.
Two classical/flamenco players told him that this may have been the result of him practicing so furiously when he was five years old, and they're helping him deal with the disorder.
has anyone heard anything about this?
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04-13-2016 03:36 PM
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Liona Boyd has the same problem Liona Boyd | GuitarPlayer
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Yes, it sounds like that. He mentioned having to change his approach to playing.
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Wow, I hope that docs/experts are able to figure it out...not just for my own selfish reasons of liking his music, but playing the guitar seems to bring him so much joy.
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it affects the right hand of classical/flamenco players I think, and the orchestral horn players' embouchers.
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Sorry to hear that. The first time I heard about the condition was many years ago when Badi Assad announced that she suffered from focal dystonia.
Badi Assad:
I was devastated when I discovered that my problem was focal dystonia [a neurologic disorder]. The doctors didn’t know how to help—they just said, “Good luck! You’ll probably never play the guitar again—and it could spread to the other hand.” I lost 98 percent of my ability to play. I said, “This is it.”But I had a spiritual mentor, David Levitan, who wrote the lyrics for “Spirit Dog”. He lent me that poem, and I remember walking around with it in my hands for weeks, crying. I said, “Okay, I’m not a victim.” After two years I recuperated and was playing again, so that song is special for me.
From and interview in Premier Guitar
Badi Assad: Breaking the Chains | Premier Guitar
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Keith Emerson suffered from this.
. His inability to play like he once did due to this contributed to his depression and suicide.
Someone told me that Liona Boyd can't really play anymore, she basically sings and strums cowboy chords . I hope she finds happiness with whatever level of music she is involved in.
I hope the Julian finds a solution, he is such a breath of fresh air as a human being and musician.
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i hope he recovers. he is one of the younger players that is really doing some phenomonal music
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I know a few players who have suffered from this..some have managed complete/near complete recovery, while some others have seen the performing side of their career end..it's an unpredictable condition..
Important as a guitarist to maintain a good routine of regular hand/arm stretching, taking breaks, not doing the same repetitive movements or playing for too long in general...
and to be aware of and correct any faulty technique - which is often the cause alongside with pushing one's technique beyond it's limits for long periods..
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Yes, JL mentioned that he wished that he knew about this as a child, then he wouldn't have practiced so much.
Originally Posted by rcpj
I was trying to think of where I had heard of this before, and NSJ refreshed my memory with KE.
JL didn't seem that concerned about it; he seems to be getting good advice from the flamenco/classical guitarists, who have dedicated their lives to helping players with this disorder.
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In an interview I read, in 2013, Julian Lage was sent to a Dr. recommended by Nels Cline. He mentioned that from the ages of 7-14 he practiced 8-11 hours a day. He recovered from that injury with the help of a sympathetic doctor.
Last edited by rob taft; 04-13-2016 at 06:31 PM.
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In my medical specialty focal dystonia is not common so my experience is virtually nil with actual patients with this condition, but it reminds us that if a practice routine sounds excessive and obsessive, it probably poses a potential threat to one's health. We often glorify musicians who recount playing eight hours a day regularly, but in the end that can pose a significant threat to their health.
I certainly hope Julian will recover completely, but the disorder is not predictable in terms of prognosis.
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If anyone has an opportunity to listen to the interview that was on Fresh Air today, I highly recommend it. I believe that he has moved on from his neurological condition, but it was quite eye opening to hear about how the brain operates, and how it had affected him. He sounds like a really nice guy, and is obviously incredibly talented.
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Writer's cramp is another focal dystonia that may be more familiar. Golfers develop a "hitch" in their swing, usually putting, and that's another. Trumpet players sometime "lose their chops" and that's another. It tends to affect small rather than large movements, or at least we hear more about it.
The work ethic creates all kinds of problems in life when it is overdone. Working 12-14 hours a day at our jobs, practicing an instrument 8 hours a day, training 4 hours a day for a triathlon, etc.- we tend to honor those things but they may actually be bad ideas. Life should be in balance.
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Leon Fleischer is one of the more prominent musicians to suffer from this:
Pain stopped play | Music | The Guardian
I don't know about Keith Emerson. He might have had a more mundane problem, carpal tunnel syndrome. BTW repetitive strain injury is not exactly the same as focal dystonia, but they both often occur from over-practicing.
Why We Need to Talk About Keith Emerson's Carpal Tunnel Syndrome | L.A. Weekly
(On a slight tangent I am just now starting to get over a "tennis elbow" that has nothing to do with playing tennis or guitar--started 6 months ago after raking leaves and has dragged on til now. Going away on its own I guess...)
An analogous condition among singers is spasmodic dysphonia. This has afflicted some very famous performers including Alison Kraus and Tony Rice, the latter of whom has basically stopped performing because of it. The radio interviewer Diane Rehm saw her career threatened and had to relearn how to talk.
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From the article you posted. It reminds me why Segovia recommended the players only practice no more than four hours a day. Everything else, he says, is diminishing returns . Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
"Two years ago, Jill Gambaro received an email from Keith Emerson that now seems tragically prophetic. "Nobody wants to employ a session musician with any disability," he wrote. "Some musicians have resorted to suicide."
"Based on her research, Gambaro estimates that as many half of professional musicians struggle with some form of RSI during their career. In fact, one of the few studies on the subject suggests that the number may be even higher; in a 2013 survey of 377 professional orchestral musicians in Australia by the journal Psychology of Music, 84 percent of respondents said they had "experienced pain severe enough to interfere with their performance. "
"Keyboardists, Gambaro says, are especially susceptible to injury. "What we know about biomechanics has grown a lot," she says. "But with keyboards, the technique hasn't changed since Beethoven."
"Conventional treatment options, according to Gambaro, are limited. She describes Western medicine's approach to RSIs as "throwing spaghetti at the wall" — a combination of physical therapy, pain medications and surgery, though she notes, "Surgery largely does not help patients, especially when you have more than one of these repetitive strain syndromes." Emerson felt the same way; although his girlfriend Kawaguchi told The Daily Mail that he had undergone "an operation a few years ago to take out a bad muscle," the keyboardist wrote to Gambaro, "Surgery is not the answer."
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I thought originally, his problem was nerve compression in his right elbow. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
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Yes 4 hrs - with a few short regular breaks in between to stretch etc - is more than enough.. Originally Posted by NSJ
One day off a week is good to do as well, if you can resist picking up instrument..
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4 hours is actually not much at all, I've heard monder has gone through periods practicing 10, 12 even 16 hours practicing every day. not sure how true that is though
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[QUOTE=Cunamara;639961 [B]Golfers develop a "hitch" in their swing, usually putting, and that's another.
[/B]
The "yips" are more of a psychological affliction--not so much a physical issue. It is more like "performance anxiety". Bad players usually don't start "yipping" (hands shaking, or snatching at their putting stroke, instead of smooth and even) but #1 players in the world do: Bobby Jones, Walter Hagen, Ben Hogan, and Harry Vardon all had the yips, and all of them were the best of their day.
The classic profile is someone who is accomplished at a skill, is perfectionistic, and too "results oriented" in their approach, as in "I have to MAKE this putt" rather than.... "look at the line, visualize, take a breath and make a good stroke being committed to speed/line, and if it goes in, great, but it's OK if it doesn't..." because putting is not capable of perfection because of imperfect greens, players walking on the green, imperfect balls, etc. The process is somewhat controllable--but the result is not.
Beth Daniel was a great ladies golfer-winner of many, many tournaments, and she developed chipping yips.
She was cured of them by essentially cognitive therapy techniques: Beth, are you a good player?...Yes, I think I am. Have you chipped well in the past?....Yes, I have....What is involved in making the stroke?...well, this and that (description)....Can you focus just on the setup?...Yes, I can...(practice doing it--look in mirror for feedback)....can you perform the proper stroke (doing it with eyes closed, focusing on feel)....then repetition....eventually, she returned to normal. Probably she also had some technique flaws which had crept into her game. The basic cure is the same---focus on good mechanics, develop a good routine, perform it repeatedly, without attaching too much emphasis to the result....
"In karate, in life...balance important, Daniel-san....bad balance---bad karate..." said Mr. Miyagi in The Karate Kid.
Last edited by goldenwave77; 04-14-2016 at 08:03 AM.
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I think this process is probably pretty different for classical people than for jazz performers. I don't think a classical performer is going to invent new fingerings every time he plays a given piece. I would think they would crash and burn if they tried this....sure there may be some interpretative leeway, but I think the basic fingerings are known, and knowable, in advance. The focus is on execution of a given task. Originally Posted by nick1994
With jazz, the focus is real-time composition in the moment, with some attention to technique....I think this is much more intricate and involved than a pure execution task (the classical music model)....therefore one can never really exhaust the possibilities in practice--and 10/12 hrs./day or more...is do-able and maybe even helpful, if one is working on new stuff, concepts.
But with execution tasks...w/ too much practice, bad habits start to creep in, and then one is practicing the bad habits, and the result may be backsliding....and regression rather than mastery....I can see why Segovia thought 4 hrs. a practical limit for physical/mental focus.
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I'm skeptical that anyone could practice in a focused productive manner for 8 or 12 hours in a day. Sure I had days in school where I may have had 4 hours of ensembles, an hour of lesson, 3 hours on a gig, and a few hours practice but I don't think combining that to say I practiced 10 hours or whatever is accurate. Real practice is mentally demanding, let alone the physical aspect.
I echo the sentiment wish Julian luck with this. I think he is far and away the most interesting player out there today.
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Jazz and classical have different demands on the hands and body, but we shouldn't over do it.
Since I broke my elbows seven years ago, I try to be careful. My body tells me I'm over doing it. Some days I give up and place the guitar back in the gig bag. If I press my luck, I might hurt myself and I have. It was a struggle to get this far.
56 years old this year, I need to take care of myself.
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Re' Keith Emerson nerve compression at the elbow would be ulnar neuropathy, at the wrist is carpal tunnel syndrome. I have had some minor issues with the former. Occurs a lot in persons with desk jobs who type a lot.
I hope I don't rub anyone the wrong way, but in the majority of these cases that I am acquainted with there is a significant psychological component--maybe not 100% psychosomatic, but a significant contribution. Certain things like tennis elbow and some types of RST are definitely anatomic injuries, but the dystonias are a weird group of illnesses. There is no structural defect. The muscles and nerves are there, they just don't perform the way they are supposed to.
Of course, the psychological stress caused by such is off the charts. Just read about poor Tony Rice, who basically became a recluse after his performance problems.
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Are you saying there's a psychological component in Ulnar neuropathy, or in focal dystonia? Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
JL consulted a doctor for his dystonia, and the doctor said there was nothing wrong with his muscles or nerves.
When I had ulnar neuropathy, the neurologist gave me some tests, and concluded it was a case of ulnar nerve entrapment. When I suggested it was caused by certain guitar exercises I was doing that involved the 4th and 5th fingers, he said it had nothing to do with playing the guitar, and was caused by something internal.
I was sent to a hand therapist, and was fine after about a month of doing the hand exercises I was given.
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