Miles Davis: On the Corner

[christianm77]

I'd like to add to all the Pete Cosey love. He was massively underrated IMO. He is heavily featured as a soloist on Dark Magus, Pangea, Agartha and Get Up With It.

I would describe On the Corner as one of the least self indulgent records I have ever heard. I think this is when Miles's post production editing approach came to its absolute pinnacle. You can certainly see it as anticipating the same process that Public Enemy used, for example, a decade or so later, although whether there was a direct influence I can't say.

I really love Panthalassa. I prefer it to the original mixes.

[christianm77]

Great comments! As late as Bitches Brew Miles was still playing melodies--opaque, dissonant, occasionally jarring melodies but still with melodic lines and chord changes. With Jack Johnson he moved more into a groove-based form of playing, then this. Wow.

It's funny that I have not listened to it much despite enjoying the early 80's polyrhythmic stuff put out by Talking Heads, Jon Hassell, Brian Eno, and others. In fact, when the Talking Heads song I Zimbra came out we were blown away by the new sound. We thought they invented it!

Listening to OTC it's obvious where so many folks got their inspiration, in and out of jazz. It seems like Miles was always creating "boxes" for himself--musical structures of his own device--then finding ways to get out of them. That's the mark of a true artist.

I think Jah Wobble also mentioned being influenced by Miles's 70s music, as did Julian Cope. I think the post punk/new wave connection is interesting...

[christianm77]

Self indulgent was my comment. This is jazz. Jazz is populated by soloists who can take 5 chorus solos or more. See Coltrane. Only when one plays long meandering meaningless drivel can one be considered self indulgent. Yet this is a term of derision rock and rollers regularly level against jazz musicians. I just take exception to it. Especially on that record. I don't hear a lot of "self indulgence" on it. Not a lot of guitar blasting as I recall. Creamer was pretty understated actually. But I haven't listened to it in many years.

The problem is that accusations of self indulgence can be used as a sort of shield by people who cant do anything ambitious, while the counter-accusation of philistinism can be used to excuse a lot of well... self indulgence.

TBH in my own music, I get impatient with myself when I play too many choruses. But then, that might be just the shape my playing has taken - I do a lot of work were I am expected to play only a chorus for most tunes.

For some improvisors you need a lot of room to open out motives etc. But IMO, a lot of players could do with taking shorter solos for the sake of the audience. I'm not talking about the world class players here - just local level players who play pub gigs.... More tunes is good, I think, for straightahead gigs. Also it depends on the band, of course, some groups can really build a fire under the soloist...

Anyway, I remember hearing Holdsworth live and being surprised at how short his solos were. But I suppose they contain as many notes as most people's four chorus solos, so I didn't feel short changed :-)

In my experience, rock musicians are pretty open to Miles electric stuff (well art rock people anyway) - they would probably more likely dismiss Weather Report, Holdsworth etc...

[grahambop]

I'd like to add to all the Pete Cosey love. He was massively underrated IMO. He is heavily featured as a soloist on Dark Magus, Pangea, Agartha and Get Up With It.

I would describe On the Corner as one of the least self indulgent records I have ever heard. I think this is when Miles's post production editing approach came to its absolute pinnacle. You can certainly see it as anticipating the same process that Public Enemy used, for example, a decade or so later, although whether there was a direct influence I can't say.

I really love Panthalassa. I prefer it to the original mixes.

Yes some of those tracks (I think there's one called Agharta Dub) sound like stuff that other people were doing years later, such as ambient/dub stuff. Considering Miles did this in 1972-1975, it sounds well before its time in some ways.

[Doctor Jeff]

Well just for the record, I wasn't suggesting it was self-indulgent, just posing the opinion which some people at the time held. Anyway, to paraphrase, self-indulgence in pursuit of art is not (always) wrong.

BTW I have always thought Miles' use of amplification and the wah pedal was an unfortunate aberration, but I find it works extremely well here.

I am wondering who else was doing this at the time? The combination of funk, extended groove-based jamming, polyrhythms, electric instruments and world music influences was pretty unprecedented. Ok, there was the AfroCuban movement in jazz, jazz and pop coming out of Africa, James Brown, Hugh Masekala, Sun Ra, etc., but most of these efforts were melody-based and in any event did not combine ALL these elements.

Herbie and John Mc were doing their thing of course, the first Mahavishnu album actually preceeded OTC, but again it was clearly a rock-jazz fusion with a melodic and fairly rigid song structure.

I have to think a couple of pivotal influences were The Paul Bloomfield Band's East-West, the Ravi Shankar-Yahudi Menuhin album East-WEst, and of course the Beatles--Tomorrow Never Knows especially.

Interested what others think about where On the Corner came from?

[NSJ]

I am wondering who else was doing this at the time? The combination of funk, extended groove-based jamming, polyrhythms, electric instruments and world music influences was pretty unprecedented.

Interested what others think about where On the Corner came from?

I would like to think that Miles was paying attention to what his one time band members were doing, especially cannonball Adderly's longtime piano player, the guy who actually wrote "in a silent way", who formed a band with Art Blakey's one time musical director, a couple of years before "on the corner" came out .

[David B]

I am wondering who else was doing this at the time? The combination of funk, extended groove-based jamming, polyrhythms, electric instruments and world music influences was pretty unprecedented. Ok, there was the AfroCuban movement in jazz, jazz and pop coming out of Africa, James Brown, Hugh Masekala, Sun Ra, etc., but most of these efforts were melody-based and in any event did not combine ALL these elements.

Herbie and John Mc were doing their thing of course, the first Mahavishnu album actually preceeded OTC, but again it was clearly a rock-jazz fusion with a melodic and fairly rigid song structure.

I have to think a couple of pivotal influences were The Paul Bloomfield Band's East-West, the Ravi Shankar-Yahudi Menuhin album East-WEst, and of course the Beatles--Tomorrow Never Knows especially.

Interested what others think about where On the Corner came from?

Beyond the brief use of tabla and sitar in '72 and '73 for musical colour and texture, I think the influence of "world" music in Miles' music of that period is generally overstated.

I would disagree with you that James Brown's concurrent music was melody-based. From 'Sex Machine' onwards, Brown was ALL about rhythm. Very little harmonic and melodic material - I think of his vocals as just another funky horn whipping the energy levels up.

I think 'On the Corner', for its faults, is a fair attempt to capture something of what a live Miles Davis concert sounded like during that period. Since the second quintet onwards, there had been a disconnect between studio Miles and live Miles. The cutting/splicing on 'On the Corner' could be considered the recording equivalent of how Miles directed his '70s bands onstage. Teo Macero deserves much credit - as I recall, Miles was content to record hours of studio jams - it would be left to Macero to construct something out of them.

To address your question about the influences behind On the Corner, I would point to Miles' embracing of black funk and rock in the late '60s (as influenced by his wife at that time, soul singer Betty Davis), his collaboration with Paul Buckmaster and his interest in Stockhausen.

[christianm77]

Well just for the record, I wasn't suggesting it was self-indulgent, just posing the opinion which some people at the time held. Anyway, to paraphrase, self-indulgence in pursuit of art is not (always) wrong.

BTW I have always thought Miles' use of amplification and the wah pedal was an unfortunate aberration, but I find it works extremely well here.

I am wondering who else was doing this at the time? The combination of funk, extended groove-based jamming, polyrhythms, electric instruments and world music influences was pretty unprecedented. Ok, there was the AfroCuban movement in jazz, jazz and pop coming out of Africa, James Brown, Hugh Masekala, Sun Ra, etc., but most of these efforts were melody-based and in any event did not combine ALL these elements.

Herbie and John Mc were doing their thing of course, the first Mahavishnu album actually preceeded OTC, but again it was clearly a rock-jazz fusion with a melodic and fairly rigid song structure.

I have to think a couple of pivotal influences were The Paul Bloomfield Band's East-West, the Ravi Shankar-Yahudi Menuhin album East-WEst, and of course the Beatles--Tomorrow Never Knows especially.

Interested what others think about where On the Corner came from?

Sure, that's what I thought you meant...

I hear very little of Miles electric era stuff in what Mahavishnu etc was doing, and vice versa....

[David B]

For anyone who wants to hear some latter-day Pete Cosey, I just found one of the Akira Sakata tracks on YouTube. Cosey blasts off at 6:40 and stays in the stratosphere for the rest of the track.

[Doctor Jeff]

David I agree JB's post-60's music was rhythm based, and of course Miles among others borrowed a lot from what Brown was doing. But Brown's music, for all it's looseness on the surface, was actually very tight structurally.

There was always a solid structure and deep groove in the funk music that it seems to me Miles went beyond, as if he were saying we're going to set a groove and then deconstruct it. And bringing in tabla, electric sitar, cello and bass clarinet on the extended sessions--there was a lot of complexity to that gumbo.

I have read that about Stockhausen--makes sense to me. Miles had the talent and imagination and academic training to appreciate it.

[Stevebol]

People don't want to hear that 70's Miles stuff. They want old school. Sly, Ohio Players, EW&F, Brick, Average White Band, Rick James, SOS, Gap, Cameo, TLC. A little rock and Hip Hop thrown in. Get a horn player that can improvise. That's where we screwed up in the 80's.
Hip Hop is out. Good bass lines are in. Get out of the friggin' 70's already.

[neatomic]

big difference in miles electric stuff is when he went from dave holland on bass...he even tried miroslav vitous, but he was way too busy...and went to very basic but funky michael henderson..henderson was perfectly willing to keep it simple and repetitive..

as per laswell remix..he produced it like a rock record...teo was good at editing jams together but the overall production was very basic...teo was a jazzer..

cosey played sitting down behind a table where he also had allsorts of percussion instruments that he'd play when not guitaring

the early mclaughlin miles stuff is very influenced by sonny sharrock...sonny was on jack johnson..and you can hear a lot of his playing style in what mclaughlins doing

as the era progressed miles started playing more and more electric organ

one of my fave periods of music

btw. tony williams also died post op

cheers

ps- quote from dave creamer site

George Benson said regarding Creamer in a Cadence magazine interview, "Absolutely the most fantastic guitar player alive in America…"

[Endorphins]

Great album, a long time favorite. Influential, yes! Chk Bill Laswell.

and Big Fun, also recorded about the same time. Not quite as heavy, but still a big deal too.

Check the timeline, get familiar with the players.

This album has an advanced dysphonic nature. I love it.

Hey trippy hippies and cool doods - listen to some real dysphonic compositions; come back and tell us what your mums think.

Dysphonia

uh, sure man/

[Stevebol]

Go to about 1:20 in this vid. That's funky. Catherine O'Hara is very funky.

[Stevebol]

Funk on the beach;

[AndreeH]

a little ahead??? I'd say MILES AHEAD.

No, not really