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  1. #1

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    This just came up on my Facebook feed:

    https://truefire.com/pat-martino/nature-of-guitar/c1002

    Last edited by David B; 01-13-2016 at 06:34 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Great!!!! But the price... I hope the time when dolar - zloty exchange rate was 1 - 2 will come back... nvm
    79$ is the price including a 25 % discount?
    EDIT: I've got the answer - no.

  4. #3

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    Pat is a master player but I'm not at all sure getting this would be the right thing for me now.

  5. #4

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    Hmmm. Pretty far from Les Paul sitting in the day at the movies with a flashlight that he turned on every time Gene Autry played a C chord.

  6. #5

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    Question is, will anyone be able to really understand his approach?

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by zdub
    Question is, will anyone be able to really understand his approach?
    I'm sure some will. I had a teacher who had studied with Pat. He (the teacher) told me some of what Pat told him about the I-Ching and I remember thinking, "I don't want to understand the guitar in terms of something else---I want to be able to play the guitar well!" Pat obviously plays well. But some of his talk about playing I find confusing rather than clarifying. "Different strokes" and all that.

  8. #7

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    Lol, I hear you Mark.

    There's a certain importance in "being able to play the damn thing in the first place" that's important before you go reinventing the wheel.

  9. #8

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    I think most players will be very confused but he may well reach someone for whom his way of looking at the instrument turns on that imaginary floating lightbulb over their head.

  10. #9

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    I'm not at all sure this course would be helpful for me, but I have coincidentally been getting into Pat's playing recently. For the first few years of my jazz journey, I wasn't really feeling him. He is such a torrent of ideas that I had to get my ears and jazz familiarity more up to speed before I could even appreciate him. Now I really dig it!

  11. #10

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    I have to wonder if the Truefire slow speed feature will be slow enough to follow what he's doing. I have to wonder if that initial video was representative of the speed he uses for teaching.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Pat obviously plays well.
    New Pat Martino Truefire course - 'Nature of Guitar'-award-understatement-1-jpg

  13. #12

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    I find him frightening, overwhelming, stunningly brilliant, all at the same time. I can well imagine studying everything he puts out, instruction-wise, and still not being able to play anything remotely on the same planet as him. But that doesn't put me off enjoying listening to him. I don't have much spare cash right now, but might get this in the future, just to sit and laugh at the gulf between us.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    ... I remember thinking, "I don't want to understand the guitar in terms of something else---I want to be able to play the guitar well!" Pat obviously plays well. But some of his talk about playing I find confusing rather than clarifying. "Different strokes" and all that.
    For me, at least, transcribing Pat is the key to understanding his playing - more so than listening to his verbal descriptions.

    But, I suppose that's true of every player.

  15. #14

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    Wow.

    Pat has recorded many of my favorite Jazz songs. In my Jazz listening, he provides a change of pace that gives me a thrill. I never tire of going back to his songs that I prefer. Sometimes, those that I did not like initially grow on me and he pulls me into his fusion-style songs.

    I wish him luck with this course and no doubt will get it one day - when I am ready for it. My hands are full right now.

  16. #15

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    I'll definitely get this one, not so much because I want to understand his approach (tried this before - failed) but because he's such a master and just watching him is a feast.
    I have been playing for so long now that changing my approach from the ground doesn't make any sense to me. But there will definitely be many things to incorporate in my playing and that will certainly be worth the price of admission.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gearhead
    I'll definitely get this one, not so much because I want to understand his approach (tried this before - failed) but because he's such a master and just watching him is a feast.
    I have been playing for so long now that changing my approach from the ground doesn't make any sense to me. But there will definitely be many things to incorporate in my playing and that will certainly be worth the price of admission.
    I am with you. At this point in my life, I just don't take to metaphysical parallels of the guitar to life. But there is nothing wrong with doing it. I am sure there are probably many interesting hidden parallels in life that I am failing to detect - probably to my detriment - but hey, I am content.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyV
    I think most players will be very confused but he may well reach someone for whom his way of looking at the instrument turns on that imaginary floating lightbulb over their head.

    Pat was teaching at GIT when I went there and his classes more like seminars were very much like his videos, Pat's and his Zen like delivery and geometric views of music and guitar. Then Q&A would come and if you asked the wrong question then he'd become the Drill Sargent from hell verbally bitch-slapping you for not getting it. Luckily for me my "wrong question" was in a one-on-one session with him so only I knew about it. BUT in Pat's defense this was right before his brain aneurysm was diagnosed and he was having crazy mood swings. I heard at his GIT farewell dinner with staff he turned on everyone and ripped them a new one. So that brain aneurysm really did a number on him that even he wasn't aware of.

  19. #18

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    So AlsoRan, do you not think there are parallels between playing the guitar and life?

  20. #19

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    1) I think sometimes true geniuses are a little different. But that's part of what made him a genius in the first place.

    2) that part where he's talking about the guitar having parallels to some metaphysical blah blah blah that part I can do without. It just doesn't do anything for me but if it does for him, to each his own.

    3) on the other hand the part where he is actually talking about the stuff that relates to actuallyplaying the guitar sounds interesting to me actually. Like the different phrases he was talking about etc. I've actually already learned a lot from him so that definitely looks interesting.

    5) What I'd also love him to do is put a synth pickup on his guitar that picks up each string individually. Then feed that into a laptop at some gigs so it puts out the EXACT fingerings he's using. Wow if he sold some books/DVD's of that I bet they'd fly off the shelves.

    Hey Pat you ever come in here and read this stuff?

  21. #20

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    Doc,

    I gathered that from reading his book, they are a lot of things he did and said that he would take back. His brain problems were serious indeed. I got the feeling that they often turned him into a person that he did not want to be.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonray
    So AlsoRan, do you not think there are parallels between playing the guitar and life?
    Good question. I think it all goes together. There are parallels everywhere you look.

    I have been a "thinker" for most of my life, and at this point, I am just tired of spending my time "connecting the dots" of life. I just want to be able to play the guitar the way I want to, and I don't want to make it anymore than it is. Fun things you don't think about much, you just "do."

    These days, I can take just so much philosophy, especially since it is force upon us with all these streams of information coming at us 24/7. The guitar is a safe bit of fun that allows me to explore emotions without having to worry about someone using them to manipulate me to buy their product, join their church, donate to their cause, join their political party, have a discussion disparaging some group of people that I don't understand, etc....

    Also, I like to explore philosophical thoughts with people. In my experience, most are not open to changing their opinions about things. They believe what they say is the one and only truth.

    I understand the fact that I am a part of this universe. But, what I am doing works for me, and I don't have to screw anybody over to have what I want and need. So I am content and want to stay this way as long as I can before the "Ravager's of time" take it all away.

    (Ha, Ha, you got me back up on my own soapbox! Sorry)
    Last edited by AlsoRan; 01-16-2016 at 06:22 PM.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    Doc,

    I gathered that from reading his book, they are a lot of things he did and said that he would take back. His brain problems were serious indeed. I got the feeling that they often turned him into a person that he did not want to be.
    That's why I add to my story that his brain aneurysm wasn't known about at the time. I read the book felt he left a lot out of it at least from stories I've been told and heard by people who were around him.

    I find it interesting he's had to relearn everything including guitar after the surgery and its like he getting back to his deep geometric and symmetrical thinking again. Must be so strange like someone hit rewind on your life and you had replay it to recover your memories and knowledge.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    That's why I add to my story that his brain aneurysm wasn't known about at the time. I read the book felt he left a lot out of it at least from stories I've been told and heard by people who were around him.

    I find it interesting he's had to relearn everything including guitar after the surgery and its like he getting back to his deep geometric and symmetrical thinking again. Must be so strange like someone hit rewind on your life and you had replay it to recover your memories and knowledge.
    I can just imagine the events that might have occurred, Doc. I hope that both he, and whomever he may have had run-ins with, are all in a good place now. In reading his book, I noticed some subjects were not talked about in-depth, and left many questions. I just assumed this was by design and he did not want to "go there" again, or reveal everything to the world in writing. I don't blame him.

    It was a very fascinating read.

  25. #24

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    For the just-curious ones, TrueFire just put some (10) videos (just fragments but for maybe 40 min long in total).

    Very... interesting. And great to hear him !

  26. #25

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    I got the download yesterday and have watched a handful of the videos it's one of the longest TF courses I've seen. I you are familiar with Pat's old DVD this is rooted in the same thoughts. It is nice to have pdf's to support each piece. Pat notes that he is a self-taught guitarist and a lot of this is based of how a child teaches themselves something looking trying to move a shape around, and disvovering where shapes need to change for the strings.

    TF videos are always filmed great and have the ability to slow down, that is nice because every now and then Pat start's playing some of his classic lines as related to what he just talked about. So can really see how he played some of these things. The other thing is it's Pat and he Benedetto guitar clean and clear and that guitar sounds incredible with those heavy strings and Pat's playing. Made me want to order a Benedetto, but then I remembered what they cost and now trying to think how to make one of my guitar sound like that.

    Seeing the video age is catching up with Pat he's looking very thin and he was thin to start with. A couple times he'll flub grabbing a note or chord another sign of he's getting up in years. So good to hear a living legend talk about his view point of guitar, glad I got the class.

  27. #26

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    I have no doubt that eventually I will get this video, being a Pat Martino fan.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    I have no doubt that eventually I will get this video, being a Pat Martino fan.
    It's Zen Pat and I always enjoy hearing him talk about guitar even in geometric ways.

  29. #28

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    I got it too - who could resist? He does seem to have aged, and looks frail. But his playing is great and unique. I could just listen to him playing scales...what a sound.

    I don't know if I'll really learn anything from this, but I love hearing him talk about his approach. He's one of the greatest jazz guitarists ever, and he's talking for hours about how he does it, how he sees it, what it means to him. Worth every penny.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    I got it too - who could resist? He does seem to have aged, and looks frail. But his playing is great and unique. I could just listen to him playing scales...what a sound.

    I don't know if I'll really learn anything from this, but I love hearing him talk about his approach. He's one of the greatest jazz guitarists ever, and he's talking for hours about how he does it, how he sees it, what it means to him. Worth every penny.
    I like the subtle message of look at things like a child exploring.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    I got it too - who could resist? He does seem to have aged, and looks frail. But his playing is great and unique. I could just listen to him playing scales...what a sound.

    I don't know if I'll really learn anything from this, but I love hearing him talk about his approach. He's one of the greatest jazz guitarists ever, and he's talking for hours about how he does it, how he sees it, what it means to him. Worth every penny.
    I also purchased this course for about the same reason. I first heard Pat Martino in 1973-4 when a friend hipped me to the "Live" LP. At the time, I was blown away. I have Pat Martino to thank for lighting the spark that still burns today. From that LP I went on to learn about John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Wes Montgomery, etc. etc. etc.

    I'd buy a video of him as Rob says above "playing scales" just to show my gratitude for 40+ years of listening pleasure.

  32. #31

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    I bought this because I noticed that he was using the tune "Minority" and I happen to be working on that at the moment.

    After working on transcribing a lot of his solos and wading through his 2 videos.....back in the day....I find with this video he finally outlines how he approaches altered chords. Somehow this was always lost in the translation in his previous lessons.

    So it's the standard way but in Pat's terminology.

    If a V7 chord is has no altered notes ...if it's a 7th or 9th or 13th then Pat plays a minor scale a 5th above.....only it's usually a melodic minor or jazz minor. (but he never mentions that)

    If a V7 chord has altered tones ...b9, #9, b5, #5 etc then Pat calls that dissonant and plays the same minor scale a semitone above that chord.

    So....completely standard practise as outlined in many videos by others.

    What Pat fails to tell you (consistently) is that he instinctively targets the chord tones of the V7 in those scales.

    Then Pat will explain all his diagrams and how to play whilst standing in a Zinc bathtub facing north.
    What he is really saying is....."know these scales in 5 positions"

    And what's really cool is that he plays Minority in those 5 positions. Showing you that you can play multiple descending 2 5's and not move from position.......and he does it all over the neck in all positions. Barry Greene also preaches this approach.
    Once again I've heard others do this but the difference is that Pat makes it sound great.

    Bottom line is that IMO the guy is a legend and he is a legend because of his choice of notes and timing..... he still swings and always hits the sweet notes.

    For those who don't like the slow down feature in TruFire then may I suggest downloading the course from your account and investing in "Transcribe". I simply put the videos in Transcribe and input the chord changes (type the changes above the audio file display.....so you always know where you are), select a section and put it on repeat. You can see his fingers in slo mo and read the chart at the same time.

  33. #32

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    No doubt he's a great guitarist.

    But, man, he makes my head spin. I don't think he's a very good teacher, all IMO.

  34. #33

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    Well. I went through all the videos of the course. I did not study them, just watched them, end-to-end. I can tell you this, there is very little for me here. Pat is an amazing player, but for me, his teaching, pontifications, and philosophical diatribes do nothing for me.

    To me it appears Pat put together his thoughts, theory’s and methodologies to try to explain something that is innate in his abilities. As far as I could tell, Pat was not formally educated in music theory but found his own path though exploration. Great music sensibilities, ears, focus and dexterity all lead him to greatness. But to try to package something into an instructional form from his experience seems like a nonstarter

    He explains things that most guitar players know. Yes, he discovered them on his own and sees them in his own unique way, but to me they do not lend much in the way of offering anything new.

    He spends an inordinate amount of time on his fascination with diminished and augmented triads. Yes, diminished and augmented chord repeat themselves in different inversions repeatedly up the neck. Take an augment chords, lower and note and have a major triad, take and note move it up you have a minor. Take a diminished and lower and note and you have a dominant, lower any note…. ah you get the point.

    He likes to calculate factors. How many combinations of things you can have.
    There are number of lessons where he uses geometric forms to represent chord and scale possibilities. He basically put all 12 notes into a circle like a clock. He then derives scales/chords by connecting notes into different geometric shapes.
    There are many lessons, let me rephrase that, demonstrations, where, while playing at the speed of light he attempts to demonstrate the creation of lines. Problem is, these lines are not based on any of the teachings and cannot be tied back to any of his theory.

    I could keep going on. Bottom line, is perhaps this is above my head and I need to spend more time with the whole thing.

    I am sure there are little gems to obtain from these videos but my gut just tells me, Pat has struggled to build a world of theory and philosophy around something that is just innate to him and does not require any theory or philosophy. It just feel like he forced the creation of this whole thing just to teach something that is kind of unteachable.
    Love to hear others opinions.

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickshapiro
    Well. I went through all the videos of the course. I did not study them, just watched them, end-to-end. I can tell you this, there is very little for me here. Pat is an amazing player, but for me, his teaching, pontifications, and philosophical diatribes do nothing for me.

    To me it appears Pat put together his thoughts, theory’s and methodologies to try to explain something that is innate in his abilities. As far as I could tell, Pat was not formally educated in music theory but found his own path though exploration. Great music sensibilities, ears, focus and dexterity all lead him to greatness. But to try to package something into an instructional form from his experience seems like a nonstarter

    He explains things that most guitar players know. Yes, he discovered them on his own and sees them in his own unique way, but to me they do not lend much in the way of offering anything new.

    He spends an inordinate amount of time on his fascination with diminished and augmented triads. Yes, diminished and augmented chord repeat themselves in different inversions repeatedly up the neck. Take an augment chords, lower and note and have a major triad, take and note move it up you have a minor. Take a diminished and lower and note and you have a dominant, lower any note…. ah you get the point.

    He likes to calculate factors. How many combinations of things you can have.
    There are number of lessons where he uses geometric forms to represent chord and scale possibilities. He basically put all 12 notes into a circle like a clock. He then derives scales/chords by connecting notes into different geometric shapes.
    There are many lessons, let me rephrase that, demonstrations, where, while playing at the speed of light he attempts to demonstrate the creation of lines. Problem is, these lines are not based on any of the teachings and cannot be tied back to any of his theory.

    I could keep going on. Bottom line, is perhaps this is above my head and I need to spend more time with the whole thing.

    I am sure there are little gems to obtain from these videos but my gut just tells me, Pat has struggled to build a world of theory and philosophy around something that is just innate to him and does not require any theory or philosophy. It just feel like he forced the creation of this whole thing just to teach something that is kind of unteachable.
    Love to hear others opinions.
    Your gut is very wrong. I suggest you donate all your jazz records to the nearest library, set your instruments on fire and take up fantasy baseball.

    That is all

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by rquattro
    Your gut is very wrong. I suggest you donate all your jazz records to the nearest library, set your instruments on fire and take up fantasy baseball.

    That is all
    Huh, I think I read Rick Shapiro's comments much differently than you did. I don't see anything to get hostile about. I heard him say Pat is an incredible player, but his attempts to explain what he's doing don't always come across. Even though Pat is a great guy who is trying hard to explain it.

    If I'm right about Rick's statements, I think I'd probably agree--incredible, world-class player, but his teaching hasn't been helpful to me.

  37. #36

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    Have you purchased this course?
    If so, do go to the pdf for the chapter on octavistics and learn all 48 pages.
    After you finish that let me know about the deficits in Pat's teaching, and I will help you through the rest of the course.
    If you haven't purchased this class then please refrain from commenting on it.

  38. #37

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    I certainly was not dismissing Pat's musicianship. I was just commenting on my opinion of his course, communication and content. I am sure there are things of value, I found some myself.

  39. #38

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    Hmm I have found a staggering amount of content. The course is called the nature of guitar. In the first few chapters I learned how to play any chord in any inversion on any string set, all twelve keys in one or any position. Some of the spread voicing dominants are so great! They are everywhere. I started applying this stuff to "All the things you are" and came up with so many new things ...voice leading counter point spread v oicings..pretty much the sky is the limit. Later there are sections on how to invert melodies. I took his idea and applied it the the melody on " Four" and after a few minutes a saw and played the melody in new places but mainly in new directions at will. It has really opened my eyes..there is content on composing ..Sections on how to move shapes across string sets..how to derive upper structures. There is so much here, so many deep pdfs with timing marks and all the camera views..I just didn't want your first post to scare others off. Again the course is not called play bebop exactly like Pat Martino. We can transcribe if we want that.

    As far as not liking his opinions? At every step he explains how and why he came up up with his stuff. What else could he have done?

    Thank god Wes Montgomery didn't release a teaching video, so I don't have to read your review.

    All I can say is if you like playing your guitar you will most likely find tons of value here..

  40. #39

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    Nope, I did not want to scare anybody off either. I am glad you learned new things, hope others find it as useful. I cannot speculate on Wes, great players don't necessarily make great teachers. I would say Jimmy Bruno is the exact opposite of Martino in his approach and is effective for many. I wonder if Jimmy's head would explode if Pat presented him with his guitar hieroglyphics. Glad you provided your review, it will be interesting overtime to see what others have to say.

  41. #40

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    I purchased two items from Jimmy Bruno, one focused on 5 position fingering for the major scale and one dvd called the art of picking. I thought both sub par and moved them within a week. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder or caveat emptor all at the same time. I just wondered if you gave this title a fair shake after admitting you hadn't studied the videos or course materials before posting your thoughts.

  42. #41

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    Yes, I did caveat saying I did not execute the course. I did listen and watched every video. I actually went though them twice. I did a few with guitar in hand. I think I fairly scoped my experience prior to making the review. I am not promoting Jimmy Bruno but a comparison with his online course would be more apples to apples, them two of his books. To each his own.

  43. #42

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    I'm thinking of getting this. I have a 'free' download coming and this is an expensive video, so there's a real incentive to use my 'freebie' for something priced so steep (for a TrueFire video.).

    But I find Pat's talking-about-guitar off putting. Doesn't mean it's wrong or that I think I'm his equal but as they say about picking, "whatever works for you" and this teaching style doesn't seem to work for me.

    (My first jazz teacher had studied with Pat and had cassette recordings of lessons with Pat, which were much more in the form of Pat talking about music than playing-----those were the only parts my teacher played for me; I don't know what he DIDN'T play for me. And there was the I-Ching thing, which couldn't really help me because I didn't understand jazz OR I-Ching. (Having one thing explained in terms of another thing you don't know can be more mystifying than enlightening; that doesn't mean the teaching is wrong but if you're not ready to "hear" it, you can't grasp the intended meaning.)

    However, the way Pat PLAYS is deeply appealing. And one reason is that it sounds like great jazz in a traditional vein. (As "far out" as Pat's descriptions may seem, his playing is down to earth. It grabs you. It swings, it sings, it zings---it SOUNDS much more, well, emotional than ethereal or intellectual.)

    From that teacher, this has been over 25 years ago now, I learned Pat's "activities" from "Linear Expressions." I still use those. I don't think I will ever forget them. I love those lines.

    I really appreciate Philco's post above. (Philco is a great guy and I'm always interested in his take on things.) Never mind what it may be called, or how it may be described, what Pat's actually DOING is something one can learn (or learn from).

    I'll sleep on it but I think tomorrow I'm going to get this course.

  44. #43

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    I never made it past the first few lessons in Pats course .. which are Pat covering that diminished chords have siblings (move one note a half step and you get the 'normal' chords)

    Pat has a very flat delivery when he is talking .. that is for sure.

  45. #44

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    I just got the course today and received 40% discount. Some kind of St Pat's Day deal. I paid $59.60 for the $99 course with the DVD plus postage. Still expensive but it is Pat Martino! I enjoyed his Creative Force and this looks like an encapsulation of his ideas from all his previous materials.

    I read mathematics and some physics in college and, yeah, I am used to Pat's style of delivery. He is perspicuous compared to some of my old maths profs who talked to the blackboard much of the time. I must be the only maths guy in the world with maths anxiety; anxiety is this dense mental fog. I am not a "natural" but I enjoy maths and physics perversely. It is more exam grade anxiety than anything else. Out of college now, maths and physics are a lot more enjoyable...like jazz.
    Last edited by Jabberwocky; 03-17-2018 at 08:02 AM.

  46. #45

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    Pat Martino is a true musical genius. The instructional materials he has out there are like priceless gems for the jazz guitarist. Even his material that may seem a bit more "obtuse" when related to guitar if you really think about what he's saying and begin to wrap your noodle around it you'll find that there is some very deep musical wisdom in there.

  47. #46

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    I have just browsed through some of the posts and like to say the following:

    Pat is an artist and genius who fortunately took the effort to find a way to show us how he approaches his art, which he developed over a long period of time. We all should be glad about this. The ones who feel they are not ready yet may get there one day too. We should stop worrying about prices and support him as profoundly as we can afford.

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philco
    After working on transcribing a lot of his solos and wading through his 2 videos.....back in the day....I find with this video he finally outlines how he approaches altered chords. Somehow this was always lost in the translation in his previous lessons.

    So it's the standard way but in Pat's terminology.

    If a V7 chord is has no altered notes ...if it's a 7th or 9th or 13th then Pat plays a minor scale a 5th above.....only it's usually a melodic minor or jazz minor. (but he never mentions that)

    If a V7 chord has altered tones ...b9, #9, b5, #5 etc then Pat calls that dissonant and plays the same minor scale a semitone above that chord.

    So....completely standard practise as outlined in many videos by others.

    What Pat fails to tell you (consistently) is that he instinctively targets the chord tones of the V7 in those scales.
    I've been playing through Pat's book "Linear Expressions" (-not a companion booklet for a DVD; this was before Pat was making video / DVD courses) and he does mention briefly an example of handling an altered dominant chord by using the melodic minor scale a half-step up from the root. It comes on page 57 in a discussion of bar 14 of "Nadine", a composition near the end of the book to show how his approach in the book could be put into practice on a tune.

    And the reason he prefers the melodic minor to the harmonic minor scale (in this instance) is that it contains the b7 of the dominant chord.

    For the curious: the chord is Gb7 #5 #9. The recommendation is G melodic minor rather the G harmonic minor b/c the former contains the b7 of Gb7 (E, or Fb).

    As you say, this is a standard approach. (Emily Remler talks about this is a guitar lesson that was recorded and may easily be found on the Internet.) But it's not something Pat talks much about. I think that, as you say, it is something he DOES.

    To be clear, I agree with you that Pat doesn't go much into this in any video courses. (At least, any I have seen.) And he doesn't make much of it in the book "Linear Expressions" either. I think it would have been helpful to many students had he drawn more attention to that approach.

    I can't help wonder how a conversation between Pat and Wes Montgomery might go. Pat learned a lot from Wes. Yet it is hard to imagine Wes talking about the guitar (and about learning the guitar) the way Pat does. Pat's a giant. We're lucky to have him. And I want Pat to be Pat. As esoteric as his descriptions may sound, his playing is earthy and grooving. I want to stop thinking about the terms he uses to describe things and just play around with more of his lines.

    Here is Pat playing a Wes tune. I love the way his lines lay out on the guitar.


  49. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I've been playing through Pat's book "Linear Expressions" (-not a companion booklet for a DVD; this was before Pat was making video / DVD courses) and he does mention briefly an example of handling an altered dominant chord by using the melodic minor scale a half-step up from the root. It comes on page 57 in a discussion of bar 14 of "Nadine", a composition near the end of the book to show how his approach in the book could be put into practice on a tune.

    And the reason he prefers the melodic minor to the harmonic minor scale (in this instance) is that it contains the b7 of the dominant chord.

    For the curious: the chord is Gb7 #5 #9. The recommendation is G melodic minor rather the G harmonic minor b/c the former contains the b7 of Gb7 (E, or Fb).

    As you say, this is a standard approach. (Emily Remler talks about this is a guitar lesson that was recorded and may easily be found on the Internet.) But it's not something Pat talks much about. I think that, as you say, it is something he DOES.

    To be clear, I agree with you that Pat doesn't go much into this in any video courses. (At least, any I have seen.) And he doesn't make much of it in the book "Linear Expressions" either. I think it would have been helpful to many students had he drawn more attention to that approach.

    It's covered explicitly in part 2 of his creative force video. He demonstrates both minor up a half step and minor down a whole step over altered dominant chords. He then plays through several iterations of ii V i VI using minor up a half step over both the Valt and VIalt chords.

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  50. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry
    It's covered explicitly in part 2 of his creative force video. He demonstrates both minor up a half step and minor down a whole step over altered dominant chords. He then plays through several iterations of ii V i VI using minor up a half step over both the Valt and VIalt chords.
    That's good to know.
    I bought that years ago but loaned it to someone and never saw it again. Never bought it again either. My tough luck, eh?

    As you're familiar with more of Pat's teaching material in I am, what do you find in "The Nature of Guitar" that was was new to you?

    I think I'll go through all the line studies in "Linear Expressions" before trying to go further into Pat's teaching.

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    That's good to know.
    I bought that years ago but loaned it to someone and never saw it again. Never bought it again either. My tough luck, eh?

    As you're familiar with more of Pat's teaching material in I am, what do you find in "The Nature of Guitar" that was was new to you?

    I think I'll go through all the line studies in "Linear Expressions" before trying to go further into Pat's teaching.


    That's a hard question to answer. I've watched the entire thing, but I haven't dug through any of it at all. I'm still hammering away at the line studies, myself. I made a mental note that there are some drills he goes through that are based on the four dominant chords associated with each diminished chord. Most of it is just the evolution of his fretboard organization ideas.

    I'm intending to work my way through his stuff chronologically. I may never make it all the way through.

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