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I have no doubt that eventually I will get this video, being a Pat Martino fan.
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01-26-2016 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by AlsoRan
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I got it too - who could resist? He does seem to have aged, and looks frail. But his playing is great and unique. I could just listen to him playing scales...what a sound.
I don't know if I'll really learn anything from this, but I love hearing him talk about his approach. He's one of the greatest jazz guitarists ever, and he's talking for hours about how he does it, how he sees it, what it means to him. Worth every penny.
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Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
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Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
I'd buy a video of him as Rob says above "playing scales" just to show my gratitude for 40+ years of listening pleasure.
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I bought this because I noticed that he was using the tune "Minority" and I happen to be working on that at the moment.
After working on transcribing a lot of his solos and wading through his 2 videos.....back in the day....I find with this video he finally outlines how he approaches altered chords. Somehow this was always lost in the translation in his previous lessons.
So it's the standard way but in Pat's terminology.
If a V7 chord is has no altered notes ...if it's a 7th or 9th or 13th then Pat plays a minor scale a 5th above.....only it's usually a melodic minor or jazz minor. (but he never mentions that)
If a V7 chord has altered tones ...b9, #9, b5, #5 etc then Pat calls that dissonant and plays the same minor scale a semitone above that chord.
So....completely standard practise as outlined in many videos by others.
What Pat fails to tell you (consistently) is that he instinctively targets the chord tones of the V7 in those scales.
Then Pat will explain all his diagrams and how to play whilst standing in a Zinc bathtub facing north.
What he is really saying is....."know these scales in 5 positions"
And what's really cool is that he plays Minority in those 5 positions. Showing you that you can play multiple descending 2 5's and not move from position.......and he does it all over the neck in all positions. Barry Greene also preaches this approach.
Once again I've heard others do this but the difference is that Pat makes it sound great.
Bottom line is that IMO the guy is a legend and he is a legend because of his choice of notes and timing..... he still swings and always hits the sweet notes.
For those who don't like the slow down feature in TruFire then may I suggest downloading the course from your account and investing in "Transcribe". I simply put the videos in Transcribe and input the chord changes (type the changes above the audio file display.....so you always know where you are), select a section and put it on repeat. You can see his fingers in slo mo and read the chart at the same time.
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No doubt he's a great guitarist.
But, man, he makes my head spin. I don't think he's a very good teacher, all IMO.
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Well. I went through all the videos of the course. I did not study them, just watched them, end-to-end. I can tell you this, there is very little for me here. Pat is an amazing player, but for me, his teaching, pontifications, and philosophical diatribes do nothing for me.
To me it appears Pat put together his thoughts, theory’s and methodologies to try to explain something that is innate in his abilities. As far as I could tell, Pat was not formally educated in music theory but found his own path though exploration. Great music sensibilities, ears, focus and dexterity all lead him to greatness. But to try to package something into an instructional form from his experience seems like a nonstarter
He explains things that most guitar players know. Yes, he discovered them on his own and sees them in his own unique way, but to me they do not lend much in the way of offering anything new.
He spends an inordinate amount of time on his fascination with diminished and augmented triads. Yes, diminished and augmented chord repeat themselves in different inversions repeatedly up the neck. Take an augment chords, lower and note and have a major triad, take and note move it up you have a minor. Take a diminished and lower and note and you have a dominant, lower any note…. ah you get the point.
He likes to calculate factors. How many combinations of things you can have.
There are number of lessons where he uses geometric forms to represent chord and scale possibilities. He basically put all 12 notes into a circle like a clock. He then derives scales/chords by connecting notes into different geometric shapes.
There are many lessons, let me rephrase that, demonstrations, where, while playing at the speed of light he attempts to demonstrate the creation of lines. Problem is, these lines are not based on any of the teachings and cannot be tied back to any of his theory.
I could keep going on. Bottom line, is perhaps this is above my head and I need to spend more time with the whole thing.
I am sure there are little gems to obtain from these videos but my gut just tells me, Pat has struggled to build a world of theory and philosophy around something that is just innate to him and does not require any theory or philosophy. It just feel like he forced the creation of this whole thing just to teach something that is kind of unteachable.
Love to hear others opinions.
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Originally Posted by rickshapiro
That is all
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Originally Posted by rquattro
If I'm right about Rick's statements, I think I'd probably agree--incredible, world-class player, but his teaching hasn't been helpful to me.
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Have you purchased this course?
If so, do go to the pdf for the chapter on octavistics and learn all 48 pages.
After you finish that let me know about the deficits in Pat's teaching, and I will help you through the rest of the course.
If you haven't purchased this class then please refrain from commenting on it.
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I certainly was not dismissing Pat's musicianship. I was just commenting on my opinion of his course, communication and content. I am sure there are things of value, I found some myself.
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Hmm I have found a staggering amount of content. The course is called the nature of guitar. In the first few chapters I learned how to play any chord in any inversion on any string set, all twelve keys in one or any position. Some of the spread voicing dominants are so great! They are everywhere. I started applying this stuff to "All the things you are" and came up with so many new things ...voice leading counter point spread v oicings..pretty much the sky is the limit. Later there are sections on how to invert melodies. I took his idea and applied it the the melody on " Four" and after a few minutes a saw and played the melody in new places but mainly in new directions at will. It has really opened my eyes..there is content on composing ..Sections on how to move shapes across string sets..how to derive upper structures. There is so much here, so many deep pdfs with timing marks and all the camera views..I just didn't want your first post to scare others off. Again the course is not called play bebop exactly like Pat Martino. We can transcribe if we want that.
As far as not liking his opinions? At every step he explains how and why he came up up with his stuff. What else could he have done?
Thank god Wes Montgomery didn't release a teaching video, so I don't have to read your review.
All I can say is if you like playing your guitar you will most likely find tons of value here..
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Nope, I did not want to scare anybody off either. I am glad you learned new things, hope others find it as useful. I cannot speculate on Wes, great players don't necessarily make great teachers. I would say Jimmy Bruno is the exact opposite of Martino in his approach and is effective for many. I wonder if Jimmy's head would explode if Pat presented him with his guitar hieroglyphics. Glad you provided your review, it will be interesting overtime to see what others have to say.
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I purchased two items from Jimmy Bruno, one focused on 5 position fingering for the major scale and one dvd called the art of picking. I thought both sub par and moved them within a week. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder or caveat emptor all at the same time. I just wondered if you gave this title a fair shake after admitting you hadn't studied the videos or course materials before posting your thoughts.
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Yes, I did caveat saying I did not execute the course. I did listen and watched every video. I actually went though them twice. I did a few with guitar in hand. I think I fairly scoped my experience prior to making the review. I am not promoting Jimmy Bruno but a comparison with his online course would be more apples to apples, them two of his books. To each his own.
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I'm thinking of getting this. I have a 'free' download coming and this is an expensive video, so there's a real incentive to use my 'freebie' for something priced so steep (for a TrueFire video.).
But I find Pat's talking-about-guitar off putting. Doesn't mean it's wrong or that I think I'm his equal but as they say about picking, "whatever works for you" and this teaching style doesn't seem to work for me.
(My first jazz teacher had studied with Pat and had cassette recordings of lessons with Pat, which were much more in the form of Pat talking about music than playing-----those were the only parts my teacher played for me; I don't know what he DIDN'T play for me. And there was the I-Ching thing, which couldn't really help me because I didn't understand jazz OR I-Ching. (Having one thing explained in terms of another thing you don't know can be more mystifying than enlightening; that doesn't mean the teaching is wrong but if you're not ready to "hear" it, you can't grasp the intended meaning.)
However, the way Pat PLAYS is deeply appealing. And one reason is that it sounds like great jazz in a traditional vein. (As "far out" as Pat's descriptions may seem, his playing is down to earth. It grabs you. It swings, it sings, it zings---it SOUNDS much more, well, emotional than ethereal or intellectual.)
From that teacher, this has been over 25 years ago now, I learned Pat's "activities" from "Linear Expressions." I still use those. I don't think I will ever forget them. I love those lines.
I really appreciate Philco's post above. (Philco is a great guy and I'm always interested in his take on things.) Never mind what it may be called, or how it may be described, what Pat's actually DOING is something one can learn (or learn from).
I'll sleep on it but I think tomorrow I'm going to get this course.
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I never made it past the first few lessons in Pats course .. which are Pat covering that diminished chords have siblings (move one note a half step and you get the 'normal' chords)
Pat has a very flat delivery when he is talking .. that is for sure.
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I just got the course today and received 40% discount. Some kind of St Pat's Day deal. I paid $59.60 for the $99 course with the DVD plus postage. Still expensive but it is Pat Martino! I enjoyed his Creative Force and this looks like an encapsulation of his ideas from all his previous materials.
I read mathematics and some physics in college and, yeah, I am used to Pat's style of delivery. He is perspicuous compared to some of my old maths profs who talked to the blackboard much of the time. I must be the only maths guy in the world with maths anxiety; anxiety is this dense mental fog. I am not a "natural" but I enjoy maths and physics perversely. It is more exam grade anxiety than anything else. Out of college now, maths and physics are a lot more enjoyable...like jazz.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 03-17-2018 at 08:02 AM.
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Pat Martino is a true musical genius. The instructional materials he has out there are like priceless gems for the jazz guitarist. Even his material that may seem a bit more "obtuse" when related to guitar if you really think about what he's saying and begin to wrap your noodle around it you'll find that there is some very deep musical wisdom in there.
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I have just browsed through some of the posts and like to say the following:
Pat is an artist and genius who fortunately took the effort to find a way to show us how he approaches his art, which he developed over a long period of time. We all should be glad about this. The ones who feel they are not ready yet may get there one day too. We should stop worrying about prices and support him as profoundly as we can afford.
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Originally Posted by Philco
And the reason he prefers the melodic minor to the harmonic minor scale (in this instance) is that it contains the b7 of the dominant chord.
For the curious: the chord is Gb7 #5 #9. The recommendation is G melodic minor rather the G harmonic minor b/c the former contains the b7 of Gb7 (E, or Fb).
As you say, this is a standard approach. (Emily Remler talks about this is a guitar lesson that was recorded and may easily be found on the Internet.) But it's not something Pat talks much about. I think that, as you say, it is something he DOES.
To be clear, I agree with you that Pat doesn't go much into this in any video courses. (At least, any I have seen.) And he doesn't make much of it in the book "Linear Expressions" either. I think it would have been helpful to many students had he drawn more attention to that approach.
I can't help wonder how a conversation between Pat and Wes Montgomery might go. Pat learned a lot from Wes. Yet it is hard to imagine Wes talking about the guitar (and about learning the guitar) the way Pat does. Pat's a giant. We're lucky to have him. And I want Pat to be Pat. As esoteric as his descriptions may sound, his playing is earthy and grooving. I want to stop thinking about the terms he uses to describe things and just play around with more of his lines.
Here is Pat playing a Wes tune. I love the way his lines lay out on the guitar.
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
It's covered explicitly in part 2 of his creative force video. He demonstrates both minor up a half step and minor down a whole step over altered dominant chords. He then plays through several iterations of ii V i VI using minor up a half step over both the Valt and VIalt chords.
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Originally Posted by FwLineberry
I bought that years ago but loaned it to someone and never saw it again. Never bought it again either. My tough luck, eh?
As you're familiar with more of Pat's teaching material in I am, what do you find in "The Nature of Guitar" that was was new to you?
I think I'll go through all the line studies in "Linear Expressions" before trying to go further into Pat's teaching.
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
That's a hard question to answer. I've watched the entire thing, but I haven't dug through any of it at all. I'm still hammering away at the line studies, myself. I made a mental note that there are some drills he goes through that are based on the four dominant chords associated with each diminished chord. Most of it is just the evolution of his fretboard organization ideas.
I'm intending to work my way through his stuff chronologically. I may never make it all the way through.
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Has anyone played or had a Supro Amulet ?
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