Is Emily Remler just a Wes clone?

**Marty Grass** · 08-27-2015, 11:05 AM

I found this thesis on the topic. Enjoy!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

http://www.allthingsemily.com/pdfima...%20Prodigy.pdf

**Marty Grass** · 08-27-2015, 11:08 AM

Here's her in action. I find her to have her own voice.

**wintermoon** · 08-27-2015, 11:26 AM

"I may look like a nice Jewish girl from New Jersey, but inside I’m a 50-year-old, heavyset black man with a big thumb, like Wes Montgomery." ~People Mag. 1982~

**Sam Sherry** · 08-27-2015, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Marty Grass

Here's her in action. I find her to have her own voice.

Great example, Mark. A tune from the Wes Montgomery canon, played at his standard tempo but her way.

She clearly knows her Wes but makes different musical choices almost all the time. And when she plays things that are in Wes' musical area, she's not just pasting in some "Montgomery noises" -- it's just that Wes has a giant footprint and she doesn't feel the need to move all the way to a different musical continent.

Of course her sound is substantially different from his -- chorus, pick, longer note due to the instrument.

And the 80s hair . . .

What a loss. Drugs suck.

**MarkRhodes** · 08-27-2015, 01:57 PM

Emily's tune for Herb Ellis

**Stringswinger** · 08-27-2015, 02:06 PM

I saw Emily live in the 80's. What a superb jazz guitarist! We lost her way too soon. She was very influenced by Wes (What is wrong with being influenced by the greatest jazz guitarist ever?) but very much had her own voice.

Her two instructional videos are well worth the price of admission. All of her albums are worth owning. Her music is eternal.

Pink Floyd was prescient when they wrote the song "See Emily Play"....

**orri** · 08-27-2015, 02:27 PM

I would be far more than happy with being "just" a Wes clone.

Being able to copy Wes is a pretty big accomplishment IMHO.

**ronjazz** · 08-27-2015, 10:06 PM

Emily was also hugely influenced by Pat Martino, also a Wes disciple. Neither Emily nor Pat is a clone of anybody.

**Danny W.** · 08-27-2015, 10:46 PM

I have all her recordings and saw her live a number of times. She was a lot more than a Wes clone.

When she died I was sure the future of the kind of jazz guitar I love had died with her. Howard Alden may have saved me, but I'm still not so sure I was wrong.

Danny W.

**whiskey02** · 08-28-2015, 09:43 AM

I'm not sure Danny but I know Herb Ellis stated that (sic) "she is/was the future of jazz guitar". I was just thinking of her when I saw the Jimmy Bruno picking thread resurrected because in one of her videos she spoke of picking technique, cited that she never gave it a moments thought! She was obviously strongly influenced by Wes and while she was a great player, she was no underage child prodigy, and I suspect she had not reached full maturity in regards to style. The loss of a musician of her caliber compounds every year.

**Marty Grass** · 08-28-2015, 09:56 AM

It's heartbreaking to imagine the pain she endured in her life with her inner demons. Also, it was not easy to be a female jazz musician back then.

I have a combination of outrage and sadness. But when I hear her play, it's all good.

**newzappa** · 08-28-2015, 03:20 PM

One of the best recent discoveries was a recording of Emily jamming with Ted Greene. They're easy to tell apart and Ted's gone a bit crazy with the amount of reverb he's using. Well worth hearing here:Emily Jams | Remembering the life and music of legendary jazz guitarist Emily Remler
Listen to the versions marked original as they are clearer.

**orri** · 08-28-2015, 04:39 PM

So where does this statement about Emily being a Wes clone come from?
Neither that thesis nor anyone here seems to be anywhere close to agreeing with it.

**Cunamara** · 08-28-2015, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Marty Grass

It's heartbreaking to imagine the pain she endured in her life with her inner demons. Also, it was not easy to be a female jazz musician back then.

I suspect that hasn't changed much if at all. Women still make and 25% less than men for the same work across the US economy, when their competence is recognized women still tend to be treated as if they were a novelty.

Mary Osborne demonstrated that she could keep up with Tal Farlow on the "Cats vs. Chicks" recording 60 years ago. She led bands, led recording sessions designed and marketed a line of guitars, befriended and was a peer of Charlie Christian. Emily Remler, Sheryl Bailey, Mimi Fox, Leni Stern, Carol Kaye... all of whose chops are way better than mine. But women in music are often rated as much on their looks as on their skills, something men really don't have to deal with.

I hope that women in music are on more of an equal footing and that they will write in and tell me I am wrong.

**Marty Grass** · 08-29-2015, 08:29 AM

I've done one of Mimi's video courses but still have much to learn from her. I'm currently going through a Sheryl Bailey course. She is an excellent teacher also plus seems to have a lot of fun at what she's doing.

Emily's two video courses are well worth watching, especially since they are free on Youtube.

To address another question about who thinks Emily is a Wes clone, I don't know!

I am reminded of this song when I think of Emily.

**MarkRhodes** · 08-29-2015, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Marty Grass

Emily's two video courses are well worth watching, especially since they are free on Youtube.

Are they still? I looked for them the other day and could not find them there, though I found a few snippets.

**Marty Grass** · 08-29-2015, 10:18 AM

**wintermoon** · 08-29-2015, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Marty Grass

I've done one of Mimi's video courses but still have much to learn from her. I'm currently going through a Sheryl Bailey course. She is an excellent teacher also plus seems to have a lot of fun at what she's doing.

Emily's two video courses are well worth watching, especially since they are free on Youtube.

To address another question about who thinks Emily is a Wes clone, I don't know!

I am reminded of this song when I think of Emily.

this one for me.....

**Marty Grass** · 08-29-2015, 05:43 PM

The tragedy of Emily's life was the demon of drug addiction. She became sober repeatedly only to relapse.

I have known some good musicians who fell to alcoholism, and I mean crashed and burned. The temptation for someone playing in bars and nightclubs is high. Drinking is part of the culture.

Heroin and stimulants are also ubiquitous but maybe more discreet and definitely more costly. The jazz scene is filled with these drugs and more.

I know Emily had obstacles being female. She discussed them. But they didn't kill her.

And speaking of that, Wes died way too soon also. Smoking, his weight and being sedentary may have taken away his best years.

destinytot · 08-29-2015, 08:19 PM

Sorry if they've already been posted, but someone has generously shared audio recordings of private lessons with Emily here Lessons | Remembering the life and music of legendary jazz guitarist Emily Remler

**goldenwave77** · 08-30-2015, 03:55 PM

I think the truth w/ Emily Remler is a little more complicated.

First off, I don't think "prodigy" is accurate. She played some gtr. as a teen, attended a progressive non-music oriented secondary school, and decided to go to Berkelee. She admits she had little exposure to jazz, upon her entry. In her own words, upon graduating from Berkelee, she had learned to "play a lot of notes, but couldn't swing." My read is, she went in there a little underprepared, and had to work hard at catchup. While there, she discovered jazz and esp. W. Montgomery. (Hank Garland was a working pro in Nashville at 16, which was his 2nd stint there. He worked as a 15 yr. old, and got sent back to finish HS when they found out his real age, dropped out when he could, and came back to the Music City at age 16. He might qualify for the term prodigy.)

She graduated and ended up in New Orleans, worked hard at her craft, continued taking lessons and in about 3 yrs. started to get some notice. She played in the pit crew for "Sophisticated Ladies" (the show about Ellington), and probably within 3 weeks, could play all this stuff in her sleep: I doubt pit crew members did original solos. At some point she got noticed by Herb Ellis and got signed to Concord Records.

I'm not sure her status as a youngish female didn't help her to get noticed, more than it hurt her. Concord had a bunch of artists who were in the 2nd or 3rd stages of their careers, and were older, like Herb Ellis. Let's face it...exposure of any sort to a jazz artist is welcome. For someone in the early to mid-1980's, the "role of women" would have been a semi-hot topic....Jane Fonda was both a sex symbol and male fantasy object, and fascinating because she put $80 Million bucks into her leotard selling workout videos--now there was a woman! Liz Claiborne was a hot fashion company outfitting women entering corporate America. So "the role of women" and her role in the music world was something to be talked about...it set her apart...much more than...."well I'm trying to make it....and now I think I'm coming into my own, and please listen to me". Likewise, her comment about Wes M....it's kind of out there, as a comment, but she didn't even get his age right.

She also talked at one pt., and I forget exactly where about playing "women's music" festivals...and admitting that some of that scene was uncomfortable, as she was decidedly attracted to men. She was romantically involved with Steve Masakowski at Berkelee and New Orleans, and later Larry Coryell.

I grew up around a lot of fashion conscious women. On Long Island, retail shopping was practically a contact sport. Emily Remler may have called herself a Jersey Girl, but she would have flunked Fashion 101. In that spot from Australian TV where she plays "Tenor Madness", she frankly looks like she can't wait to change out of that dress she's wearing. Not that this is to be condemned---she was just not a femme fatale....and the aggressive slightly butch female scene was not her, either. I think she got hornswoggled into playing up the female-ness of her identity early on, and it became something she probably wished would just go away....she was quoted at saying "I wish my critics would just close their eyes, and try to concentrate on what I'm playing" (not an exact quote, but correct in its sentiment, acc'd to my recollection).

I have her CD Firefly. It's good, but it sounds a little tentative. I don't know her later stuff as well as I should. I should go, and listen to it. Somewhere along the line, someone introduced her to smack and/or cocaine. Maybe she was at a crossroads, age 33, but already tired/disenchanted with life on the road. I understand she'd been a user for some time, when she died. I get the sense she went after things without having a clear sense about how things might play out. Compare her to Metheny, who was uber-smart about creating a whole new sound, and building up his popularity step by step, campus by campus, gig by gig....He, like Remler, was a superior musician, but I think had a better "road map" so to speak, both musically (in terms of a signature sound) and professionally.

As far as Wes M., Tuck Andress has said, half-facetiously, "When it comes to jazz guitar, just figure out what Wes M. did, and do it...that is the best way..." (if you can!) If you're going to pick a role model, Wes M. is not a bad one. Her later stuff, I think, had moved beyond copy-isms of Wes. M. Again, the identification with Wes. M. was probably an early "talking point" that she probably wished she had never thrown out to the press.

**Jonah** · 09-02-2015, 05:02 AM

I think that was provoked by her famous quote about Wes and mentioned also in this thread... and also when she plays octaves she sounds much like Wes (but many do when they play octaves with the thumb)...

And the rest does not sound like Wes at all... she always sounded to me very much rock-rooted, her timing and feel of groove is very strong, sometimes too precise for my feel... a bit too direct.
Her phrasing sometimes al reminds rock-guitar style...

But I admire anyway, I do not know who can resist that mixture of ingenious passionate energy and tender fragile feel of insecurity when she plays...

**55bar** · 09-02-2015, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Jonah

I think that was provoked by her famous quote about Wes and mentioned also in this thread... and also when she plays octaves she sounds much like Wes (but many do when they play octaves with the thumb)...

And the rest does not sound like Wes at all... she always sounded to me very much rock-rooted, her timing and feel of groove is very strong, sometimes too precise for my feel... a bit too direct.
Her phrasing sometimes al reminds rock-guitar style...

But I admire anyway, I do not know who can resist that mixture of ingenious passionate energy and tender fragile feel of insecurity when she plays...

Not sure her phrasing has ever reminded me of a rock guitar style, maybe on firefly she used more pentatonic phrases, that album in some way makes me think of bright size life, a great glimpse of what was to come in later years.