pat martino

**604bourne123** · 05-02-2009, 09:40 AM

does any one have any feedback on the mechanics of his playing

**franco6719** · 05-03-2009, 05:18 AM

What do you mean by the "mechanics" of his playing? Pat uses a lot of alternate picking obviously and has an amazingly precise and powerful right hand that he has developed. I don't know of he has any special way of holding the pick (as George Benson, for example), but his left-hand technique is also very fluid and he uses a lot of slides with the first-finger and stretches across five or more frets to avoid positional playing and so on. I suspect Pat has written just about everything that needs to be said about his playing style and so on in his many books.

He tends to divide the fingerboard into four or five general areas of "activity". He likes to connect everything together with first or second-finger slides and other forms of articulation. He places enormously strong emphasis on minor scales and sound substitions, especially melodic minor and dorian. I note that he seems to use a lot of upper-structure arpeggiois as well though (FMaj7 or G augmented over Dmin and so on), and there is his famous bebopish chromaticism. He fills up all of the spaces, sometimes quite literally. This tunrs off a lot of people. But he's a fascinating player actually.

**604bourne123** · 05-03-2009, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by 604bourne123

does any one have any feedback on the mechanics of his playing

Originally Posted by franco6719

What do you mean by the "mechanics" of his playing? Pat uses a lot of alternate picking obviously and has an amazingly precise and powerful right hand that he has developed. I don't know of he has any special way of holding the pick (as George Benson, for example), but his left-hand technique is also very fluid and he uses a lot of slides with the first-finger and stretches across five or more frets to avoid positional playing and so on. I suspect Pat has written just about everything that needs to be said about his playing style and so on in his many books.

He tends to divide the fingerboard into four or five general areas of "activity". He likes to connect everything together with first or second-finger slides and other forms of articulation. He places enormously strong emphasis on minor scales and sound substitions, especially melodic minor and dorian. I note that he seems to use a lot of upper-structure arpeggiois as well though (FMaj7 or G augmented over Dmin and so on), and there is his famous bebopish chromaticism. He fills up all of the spaces, sometimes quite literally. This tunrs off a lot of people. But he's a fascinating player actually.

mechanics of music/substitution laws like the universe turning obove us/mathamatical relationships holding the electrical circuits in your brain in suspense and then showering down the spinal cord with ecstastic convulsions that say that's all right.

**franco6719** · 05-04-2009, 03:13 AM

You can go to his website and download all the strange stuff about sacred geometries and stuff like that, if that will help give some insight. But, to be honest, I have a pretty strong math background and....i just have no idea what he's talking about there or if it has any relevance to his playing.

**voelker** · 05-06-2009, 04:49 AM

i just recently started studying sacred geometry, i understand the concept, but being able to utilize it is another story. its a totally different approach, in that instead of thinking in major, minor, dominant, and half diminished chords, which all have different interval structures (ex.major7=1-M3rd-3-m3rd-5-M3rd-7-M2nd-1) you think in augmented chords, fully diminished chords, and tritones, which divide the 12 notes by the same interval (ex.augmented=1-M3rd-3-M3rd-b5-M3rd-1) this allows you to play the same fingering in different positions and get the same group of notes arranged differently. you probably already know you can slide a diminished chord up and down in minor thirds(Bdim=Ddim=Fdim=Abdim), or an augmented chord in major thirds, but the beauty is in how these chords can lead to or be part of many other chords. every augmented chord is part of 3 different mi(maj7) chords. slide any note down a half step and get 3 different major triads, slide any note up a half step and get 3 minor triads or the upper part of a maj7 chord. sliding a tritone up or down a half step gives you perfect 4ths and 5ths. now this is where it gets crazy. Bdim is part of (G7b9, Db7b9, E7b9, Bb7b9) Slide any note in a Bdim chord down a half step and you get a straight dom7 chord(G7, Db7, E7, Bb7) and each of these with a tritone root creates a dom7b5b9 chord. sliding any one note up a half step can give you four different half dim chords or the upper part of four different dom7#5b9. Sliding two notes up or down (ex. 1,3 or 3,5 or 5,7 or 7,1 or 1,5 or 3,7) gives you a bunch of different dom9#5, dom7b5, m7, major6, and sus chords. so by utilizing these three basic structures you are able to find tons of other chords without moving too much, not to mention all the cool passing notes you'll find. nice work if you can get it. hope this all makes sense. I suggest making some web diagrams. Ex. write (B D F Ab) in the middle of a piece of paper, put one shifted note above or below the original chord tone draw a line into open space on the paper and write down the chords it creates. do this for each chord tone, then start a new diagram and shift 2 notes. good luck

**wordsmith** · 05-06-2009, 05:52 AM

...I had a look, but came away dazed and bewildered. Perhaps you could explain it a little further....maybe we could all try to figure out what he's suggesting. I am going to play around with what you posted here for now.
There must be something to it. One should not dismiss something too readily just because the initial approach was bogglingly mindwarping.

**derek** · 05-06-2009, 11:11 AM

I have his 2 vids, and have read several articles in print and online. Everyone who has looked has his stuff has been exposed to his minorization and view of augmented and diminished chords as parent forms. It is pretty cool how easily you can form other chords from these two forms. However, if you came up seeing the major scale and chords as the mother of all other chords/scales, can be a bit of a challenge to change that thinking.

I know this isn't his whole deal with sacred geometry, but it all strikes me as fairly guitarcentric. If nothing else, it makes for interesting reading and discussion. I am fascinated with how he thinks about music and guitar. Sometimes he gets a little too metaphysical for me, but still pretty ingenious view.

**604bourne123** · 05-06-2009, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by voelker

i just recently started studying sacred geometry, i understand the concept, but being able to utilize it is another story. its a totally different approach, in that instead of thinking in major, minor, dominant, and half diminished chords, which all have different interval structures (ex.major7=1-M3rd-3-m3rd-5-M3rd-7-M2nd-1) you think in augmented chords, fully diminished chords, and tritones, which divide the 12 notes by the same interval (ex.augmented=1-M3rd-3-M3rd-b5-M3rd-1) this allows you to play the same fingering in different positions and get the same group of notes arranged differently. you probably already know you can slide a diminished chord up and down in minor thirds(Bdim=Ddim=Fdim=Abdim), or an augmented chord in major thirds, but the beauty is in how these chords can lead to or be part of many other chords. every augmented chord is part of 3 different mi(maj7) chords. slide any note down a half step and get 3 different major triads, slide any note up a half step and get 3 minor triads or the upper part of a maj7 chord. sliding a tritone up or down a half step gives you perfect 4ths and 5ths. now this is where it gets crazy. Bdim is part of (G7b9, Db7b9, E7b9, Bb7b9) Slide any note in a Bdim chord down a half step and you get a straight dom7 chord(G7, Db7, E7, Bb7) and each of these with a tritone root creates a dom7b5b9 chord. sliding any one note up a half step can give you four different half dim chords or the upper part of four different dom7#5b9. Sliding two notes up or down (ex. 1,3 or 3,5 or 5,7 or 7,1 or 1,5 or 3,7) gives you a bunch of different dom9#5, dom7b5, m7, major6, and sus chords. so by utilizing these three basic structures you are able to find tons of other chords without moving too much, not to mention all the cool passing notes you'll find. nice work if you can get it. hope this all makes sense. I suggest making some web diagrams. Ex. write (B D F Ab) in the middle of a piece of paper, put one shifted note above or below the original chord tone draw a line into open space on the paper and write down the chords it creates. do this for each chord tone, then start a new diagram and shift 2 notes. good luck

received your email I passed over the reading but what you said makes it understandable and practable you would really have to know your notes instead of moving chords worthy of a study

**voelker** · 05-06-2009, 03:43 PM

don't get too overwhelmed by all the chords. you obviously cant think about all of that while your playing and there are a lot more applications than i mentioned. i was just trying to show the versatility of this concept. Ingeneri brings up a good point; traditional theory is based on the piano (that includes all the chord names i mentioned) Piano players have eight white keys and use the same fingering to get 3 different triads(major,minor, dim) and they know how to alter each of these by moving a halfstep up or down to a black key. its all about reference points. could you imagine playing a piano with all white keys? youd be lost. ive felt lost many times on the guitar, maybe because it's not color coded, ultimately the dim7 and augmented chords are the white keys on the guitar and you learn how to alter them by a halfstep (black keys) to find different chords

**604bourne123** · 05-06-2009, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by voelker

don't get too overwhelmed by all the chords. you obviously cant think about all of that while your playing and there are a lot more applications than i mentioned. i was just trying to show the versatility of this concept. Ingeneri brings up a good point; traditional theory is based on the piano (that includes all the chord names i mentioned) Piano players have eight white keys and use the same fingering to get 3 different triads(major,minor, dim) and they know how to alter each of these by moving a halfstep up or down to a black key. its all about reference points. could you imagine playing a piano with all white keys? youd be lost. ive felt lost many times on the guitar, maybe because it's not color coded, ultimately the dim7 and augmented chords are the white keys on the guitar and you learn how to alter them by a halfstep (black keys) to find different chords

very very interesting conception one thing the piano is stationary/ the guitar goes with the body you jump it jumps,you lie down it lies down with you,you run for a block it run for ablock with you, the mean time it can be played so it is very very intimate and quite a buddy.I,ll have to think about the black/white keys/diminished/augmented

**604bourne123** · 05-06-2009, 07:43 PM

guitar tapping kind of portrays a piano the lines sound just about the the same

**franco6719** · 05-07-2009, 04:09 AM

What I have taken away from the Pat Martino books and video stuff is basically what was described above: minorization as an important and interesting approach to improvisation and soloing, the diminished and augmented "concept" and how to derive the other chords from those repeating shapes.

It is very clever and original, as far as I can tell, but I don''t fiind myself actually using these dim/augmented concepts when I sit down to play or practice a tune or something. The problem is that it takes me some time to think about the matter (dim here, flat this note, etc.) and I feel as if the chords need to be right there under my fingers (or, even better, would be all in my ears, like some Ted Green) without having to think about anything at all.

**604bourne123** · 05-07-2009, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by franco6719

What I have taken away from the Pat Martino books and video stuff is basically what was described above: minorization as an important and interesting approach to improvisation and soloing, the diminished and augmented "concept" and how to derive the other chords from those repeating shapes.

It is very clever and original, as far as I can tell, but I don''t fiind myself actually using these dim/augmented concepts when I sit down to play or practice a tune or something. The problem is that it takes me some time to think about the matter (dim here, flat this note, etc.) and I feel as if the chords need to be right there under my fingers (or, even better, would be all in my ears, like some Ted Green) without having to think about anything at all.

i agree but when you are doing 2/5/1/,s it gives you a window to balance whatever your doing for me anyways.to get away from the regular chords interval structure when you apply it your into diminished and augmented intervals which kind of takes it to hoover.

**oleo20** · 05-07-2009, 06:39 PM

i understand how the augmented and diminished chords/triads can be altered to create new chords etc but im really stuck on how he uses that information in regards to improvising or am i missing the point?

does he think augmented and diminished chords/triads to build chord progressions etc and approach all improvisation from a minor tonality?

or does he use the augmented and diminished stuff as a basis for his improvisation on chords?

cheers

**604bourne123** · 05-07-2009, 07:11 PM

think he,s saying this is a wealth of chords that can be applied at will.If a opertune time is there you can insert these and presto you have some original music that ,s yours

**franco6719** · 05-08-2009, 04:55 AM

@Oleo20

Yes, the dim/augmented thing is mainly intended as a method to derive chords and their inversions.But I've been wondering if there is some connection to improvisation and the minorization concept too. I don't see how they would be related, but it's possible I have missed something from "Pat Martino theory".

**franco6719** · 05-08-2009, 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by 604bourne123

i agree but when you are doing 2/5/1/,s it gives you a window to balance whatever your doing for me anyways.to get away from the regular chords interval structure when you apply it your into diminished and augmented intervals which kind of takes it to hoover.

No offense, but I honestly don't understand this comment.

**604bourne123** · 05-08-2009, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by franco6719

No offense, but I honestly don't understand this comment.

pat martino go to nature of the guitar it is really involved quotes from the I ching etc.

**604bourne123** · 05-08-2009, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by 604bourne123

pat martino go to nature of the guitar it is really involved quotes from the I ching etc.

minorization is a little foggy either it is in a minor key or after doing all the changes from augmented or diminished it goes to a minor key that being said the changes seem to be only apart of the minorization /

**604bourne123** · 05-08-2009, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by 604bourne123

minorization is a little foggy either it is in a minor key or after doing all the changes from augmented or diminished it goes to a minor key that being said the changes seem to be only apart of the minorization /

What is being said is not the same as the things you are doing on your guitar the patterns that you are decoding so sometimes it is confusing as to what you saying so maybe thats why you don,t understand but what martino is saying is about the same as the studies on the jazz guitar site

**voelker** · 05-12-2009, 03:18 AM

It has many improvisation applications. For a 2-5-1, Try a Ddim7 arpeggio that ends on the B into a Gaug arpeggio that starts on the B so (D, F, Ab, B, Eb G) Try starting the Ddim7 on the B ending on the Ab and sliding down a half step to the G aug that starts on the G ends on the Eb and slides down a half step to the (D) so (B, D, F, Ab, G, B, Eb, D) here is a good ear exercise. Put on a backing track and don’t think about the key your in. find a good note and move a minor third. If it sounds good, move another minor third. If it sounds bad slide it up or down a half step most likely one of these will sound good. Continue moving in minor thirds and sliding up or down on bad notes. You can do the same with major thirds.