Barry Harris Practice approach

[docbop]

I was reading an interview with excellent saxophonist Justin Robinson from Roy Hargrove band. In his interview he mentions using a Barry Harris approach to practicing. I know they are a number of Barry Harris followers and teachers and wonder is someone could describe the Barry Harris approach. I've seen a lot of his chord stuff, but not his line based teachings. Here's the section of the interview.....

JR: At home, I practice more piano and flute than I do saxophone since I have a piano at home and have things I want to work on. On the road, I focus primarily on long tones as well as playing through my scales very slow and soft to build up my endurance and accuracy. In addition, I like to practice my scales throughout various songs such as “I Got Rhythm.” I highly recommend checking out Barry Harris teachings, which have helped me develop my practice routine and an understanding of chord progressions. - See more at: Justin Robinson Talks Bird, Trane, Roy Hargrove, and Long Tones » Best. Saxophone. Website. Ever.

[christianm77]

You could do worse than download this document. It covers the basic material and should keep you busy for a while. If you've studied David Baker, some of it might be reminiscent of his books.

The Official Barry Harris Website for Jazz Education and Information

The trick of it is to develop clear practice tasks to help you work all the combinations of the added note scales, for example. Incidentally, it's a semi goal of mine to get on top of the scales this year.... The last workshop I went to with Barry was sobering - all these devotees tearing through the scales while Barry himself dictated them at 240 bpm or so, rapid fire... I realised then how little I know even my major, dominant and minor scales 1-7 and back!

[henryrobinett]

I played with Justin last year. Hes a monster.

[docbop]

I played with Justin last year. Hes a monster.

I discovered Justin from listening to Roy Hargrove great musician, looking forward to his new album later this year.

[dasein]

i've been to quite a few of Barry's workshops. there's a YouTube account called (i believe) "BarryHarrisVideos" consisting of clips from clinics he did at a music school in The Hague.

they're a pretty good representation of what his workshops are like. Barry has many ideas, approaches, and ways to practice things, but i would hesitate to call it a "system." there's never "First you learn this, next you work on that..." each workshop consists of whatever Barry feels like expounding on at that particular moment. everything is done by ear, and the tempos are quite brisk. until you get familiar with his nomenclature and processing his thoughts, it can be quite overwhelming.

but bit by bit, you begin to piece things together and get the bigger picture. things start making sense, and elements of his ideas begin to pop into your playing.

keep in mind that Barry is all about pure, unadultered bebop. Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, and Monk are his touchstones. his approach is for improvising on blues, rhythm changes, and standards and would not really be appropriate for modal tunes or non-functional harmony (think Wayne Shorter). i don't think Barry would WANT his stuff to work on that kind of stuff, he has no qualms telling you exactly what he thinks of that kind of music.

but even if you're a big fan of that stuff (and i certainly am), it's been really valuable to take this very disciplined approach to changes. a guy like Charles McPherson (a Barry student) is a really good example of where this approach can take you. the Charlie Parker influence is clear, but not slavish -- it feels like a logical evolution:

[A. Kingstone]

To start:

Seventh Scales up to the 7th and back down (2 Bar phrase)

Seventh Scales down from the 7th (1 Bar phrase)



Barry will never say Dorian, Mixolydian, avoid note or tell you not to play the bass note in a chord.

The Frans Elsen site (mentioned above) is good as is Howard Rees Workshop Videos & Jazz School Online.

Barry travels to teach but is mostly in NY. Go if you can.

I hope you dig it.

[docbop]

To start:

Seventh Scales up to the 7th and back down (2 Bar phrase)

Seventh Scales down from the 7th (1 Bar phrase)



Barry will never say Dorian, Mixolydian, avoid note or tell you not to play the bass note in a chord.

The Frans Elsen site (mentioned above) is good as is Howard Rees Workshop Videos & Jazz School Online.

Barry travels to teach but is mostly in NY. Go if you can.

I hope you dig it.

Thanks Alan I'll check out those sites.

[sjl]

I think that Barry Harris deserves yet a good method book explaining his whole plethora of ideas (may be an encyclopedia), but apart from the scale outline of progressions I think the material about Harris is obscure.
I have the Talk Jazz method from Ben- Hur, his chordal DVD and his mikemasterclass lessons; I’ve seen every video avalaible from the master, read every interview and its difficult to me to make a jump from the approach described into improvisation.
I make a point apart for the book by Alan Kingston, I think is great. Some people says it lacks of music examples, may be, but you can use the exercises with known progressions.
Saying even more, I think that Harris method for soloing is better described in the short words about it in the book “Thinking in Jazz” by Paul F. Berliner than in the other books available with the Harris name on them.
I think the more interesting think about Harris theories is his way into voice leading, “running scales into each other” or the way He speaks sometimes about using the dominant scale for all things, but I haven’t seen this ideas well explained in any of those methods.
May you have to go to one of his workshops in order to learn that, or better you have to extract the science from his music, or may be I’m stupid.
Voice leading is easily an effectively explained in Ligon’s book for example. I have to say that I don't know about the contents of the improvisation book by the late Frans Elsen.

[A. Kingstone]

I suggest Howard Rees terrific series.

Jazz School Online - Barry Harris Workshop Video

Jazz School Online - Barry Harris Workshop Video 2

[sjl]

I have made a strong decission about adquiring more educational material: not an euro more.

[henryrobinett]

I have made a strong decission about adquiring more educational material: not an euro more.

Huh? What does that mean? Just download free stuff?

[sjl]

I have plenty of books and dvds and I have realized that I have learned the same from this forum than learning from books. As Galper says, if a book teach you only one thing, it is a good book; but books often try to make a rule from the random.

Take for example Baker's books, they are very good, but I think none of the greats is playing thinking where to put those extra chromatics, They were feeling the beat, looking for the sweet notes, expressing a feeling, hearing themselves.

I heared sometime ago a good sentence: I you want to be free, learn to be constrained; that cost me no money , but it is difficult to go from practice to playing with all that info in your mind.

May be I am wrong but I think the strong point about Harris' method is to go to his rehearsals, to be able to hear what He is saying to you, just like a band use to train.
The ones without musical environment have to rely on books; it is a pity.

It is always the same process repeating. You feel you need something more, and that new book is gone to tell you the truth who will convert you in the next Bird, but this new book is only telling you the same thing than the previous but from other point of view: hit the changes at the strong beat, hit the changes at the weak beat, play arps from the 3rd to the b9 going to the 5,..., and then you have studied five superbooks and you don't know to play Happy Birthday by ear.

Music is my only teacher now.

[henryrobinett]

Then why look for a Barry Harris method book? I'm with you. I don't have many books and 95% if my jazz and music learning did not come from any books. It just seems ironic that you're asking for or suggesting a BH on the one hand but on the other exclaim you will never buy another.

It seems artists, musicians, need to throw support to those we admire, like, derive inspiration from or otherwise learn from. And that means purchase music, Books, tickets, shows etc. where those artist ply their wares.

But you know, that's me.

[sjl]

Then why look for a Barry Harris method book? I'm with you. I don't have many books and 95% if my jazz and music learning did not come from any books. It just seems ironic that you're asking for or suggesting a BH on the one hand but on the other exclaim you will never buy another.

It seems artists, musicians, need to throw support to those we admire, like, derive inspiration from or otherwise learn from. And that means purchase music, Books, tickets, shows etc. where those artist ply their wares.

But you know, that's me.

I know , that's a contradiction but is the same as saying that I have bought so many books thinking that the next one is going to be the real Barry Harris method, or the real bebop secret, that method won't exists because his real teachings are well explained in his music.
When you hear bebop, you are hearing syncopation, speech rhythms, not eight notes in a row all the time, I've heard people who even dares to play melodies, not only chord tones or scales up and down, amazing!

P.S. Of course I will continue to support my heroes, but this time buying his records, going to shows, and may be going to workshops, those places where you see people playing, real people!

[henryrobinett]

Ok!

[sjl]

More free and amazing stuff.
I love this interview: https://tedpanken.wordpress.com/2013...for-the-piece/

Just a pearl: Melody comes first!!!
"A lot of horn players, unfortunately, they sit at the piano and they think they’ve learned how to play the piano. So what they do is, they sit at the piano and they hit a chord and then they hit another chord and they say, “Oh, they sound good together!” Then they proceed to say, “Ooh, I’m going to write a melody on that.” In the first place, that’s wrong, because what they’ve done is learn to melodize harmonies as opposed to harmonize melodies. See, the old cats, they harmonized melodies. [LAUGHS] My illustration of that is a cat ran in one day and said, “Oh, man, I’ve got this good melody; put some chords to it for me.” He sang […MELODY OF “WHITE CHRISTMAS”] That came first. See, “White Christmas” came first. The chords were put down after. That’s why that melody is going to be remembered through history. Melodies are remembered. See, these cats melodize harmonies, and what happens is, you melodize harmonies and most people don’t remember a thing you played. It’d be hard to hum what you played. They just sort of miss the boat. That’s all."

We can extract from there that the pure arpeggio outline it is not te way. The Detroit school of bebop was about outlining from scales. I like the way Ligon's book teaches voice leading (not all books are crap) but I don't play the way he says, I don't learn Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7, I feel I cannot play nothing interesting in just to beats. But if I play G7 - Cmaj (or I can play with G7's brothers), then I have something to say!

[Groyniad]

everything is dominant?

cool

i often think that an awful lot depends on whether you treat the five as a two or the two as a five.

e.g.:

bird treats 2 as 5 - wes treats 5 as 2

if you use the dominant as the way to play a 2-5 - then all the rules about where and when to add extra notes to it so as to stay right on top of the time become critical.

now take C7 in F maj.

that sound is also the sound of Bbmaj7#11

and Em7b5

Gm7 of course (its 2) - Gm6 too maybe here

and Dm7

and (amazingly enough if you ask me) Fmaj7

so you can use 'the rules' for adding extra notes to the C7 sound so as to make it scan - ALL OVER THE PLACE

[christianm77]

More free and amazing stuff.
I love this interview: https://tedpanken.wordpress.com/2013...for-the-piece/

Just a pearl: Melody comes first!!!
"A lot of horn players, unfortunately, they sit at the piano and they think they’ve learned how to play the piano. So what they do is, they sit at the piano and they hit a chord and then they hit another chord and they say, “Oh, they sound good together!” Then they proceed to say, “Ooh, I’m going to write a melody on that.” In the first place, that’s wrong, because what they’ve done is learn to melodize harmonies as opposed to harmonize melodies. See, the old cats, they harmonized melodies. [LAUGHS] My illustration of that is a cat ran in one day and said, “Oh, man, I’ve got this good melody; put some chords to it for me.” He sang […MELODY OF “WHITE CHRISTMAS”] That came first. See, “White Christmas” came first. The chords were put down after. That’s why that melody is going to be remembered through history. Melodies are remembered. See, these cats melodize harmonies, and what happens is, you melodize harmonies and most people don’t remember a thing you played. It’d be hard to hum what you played. They just sort of miss the boat. That’s all."

We can extract from there that the pure arpeggio outline it is not te way. The Detroit school of bebop was about outlining from scales. I like the way Ligon's book teaches voice leading (not all books are crap) but I don't play the way he says, I don't learn Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7, I feel I cannot play nothing interesting in just to beats. But if I play G7 - Cmaj (or I can play with G7's brothers), then I have something to say!

Great post. This is where I am starting to feel I am coming from - Barry points the way to a melodic approach to playing... Even harmony....

It also covers what I dislike about a lot of contemporary jazz composition, including much of my own.

[christianm77]

everything is dominant?

cool

i often think that an awful lot depends on whether you treat the five as a two or the two as a five.

e.g.:

bird treats 2 as 5 - wes treats 5 as 2

if you use the dominant as the way to play a 2-5 - then all the rules about where and when to add extra notes to it so as to stay right on top of the time become critical.

now take C7 in F maj.

that sound is also the sound of Bbmaj7#11

and Em7b5

Gm7 of course (its 2) - Gm6 too maybe here

and Dm7

and (amazingly enough if you ask me) Fmaj7

so you can use 'the rules' for adding extra notes to the C7 sound so as to make it scan - ALL OVER THE PLACE

Sure. I'm not sure what you mean by Parker using the V-I on ii-V-I. Parker uses everything you list on a more or less equal basis. Not so sure about Wes as I have trascribed less of him, but I know he is big on ii as well as IV on a V7 chord, as was his idol Charlie Christian.

BTW The point of BH's improv teaching as I understand it is not that you swap out the V for a ii-V - that's one very basic aspect of it. It's more that the V is a scale - a source of melodies that can be created through application of principles, patterns and rules which include patterns that happen to be ii, IV or V over the V7 plus many other possibilities.

Add in the common substitutes on top of this...

I keep repeating this over and over because it's a REALLY BIG POINT. Barry's approach to improvisation neatly encapsulates everything I have every noticed during transcription including all the possibilities you have listed above... The nice thing is that it is a melodic approach so you don't even think of it as harmonic substitutes - just melodies.

[sjl]

Ligon in his book presents the three outlines: 1357, 5317, 3217 and then expends the rest of the book making scales from that, telling us the ways to add notes to those frames. Harris as David Baker did, explains the opposite, He tell us to think in scales and then to break its linear fashion with easy but effectives tools: thirds, chromatics, inside chords, rhythms,..., I think they are two ways to go to the same place, but always the simplest answer has to be the truly one.
Analizing many of the examples in Ligon's book, some phrases are presented as iim7 for two beats going to V7 for two beats, going to Maj, but clearly there is not separation in the example, it is iim7 going to Maj (I will post later a Tom Harrel example who illustrates this) or V7 going to Maj, you don't see Dorian going to Mixolydian into Ionian, nor DFAC to GBDF to CEGB.

If We think in great improvisers like Benson, Wes, Martino, of course Harris, all them have developed methods in order to have space for express themselves, for building melodies, at the same time play the changes and simplify his pitch collection choice. Benson says he thinks in the blue scale with chromatics, Wes used the ii a lot, Martino and his minorization approach, Harris and the four related dominants.

Limitation is the way to domination. Is not the proposal of this post but what a paradox, the three most important guitar players in jazz had technical "limitations" not only scale sources limitations. Django played with two fingers, Wes with three and a thumb, and Christian played downstrokes 95% of the time.

[sjl]

More amazing stuff from a very jazzy country, Netherlands: https://www.researchcatalogue.net/view/31695/31696

[sjl]

Hi pals. Sure I'm opting for the stupid question of the month with this one but anyway...
I've been checking the Harris' material I have (I don't have the DVDs), and I don't any reference about what to play over tonic minor. I suppose the norm is to play harmonic or melodic minor but that absence...
I use minor sixth diminished scale for harmonic purposes, it is the one to choose here?
It contains both minor tonic scales, harmonic and melodic.

[Groyniad]

1 minor is usually m6 with sharped 7 - jazz minor man

[christianm77]

1 minor is usually m6 with sharped 7 - jazz minor man

Mmmmm tasty tasty jazz minor

[sjl]

melodic minor + b6= m6 dim