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Yeah . . but, that's not comping. That's banging rhythm guitar chords as written. Big difference!! In some big band settings, a band leader will totally kick your ass if you wandered from the chart when playing rhythm guitar .. unless it's when *complimenting* (as in comping?) a soloist. Too much shit going on harmonically with horns to risk the clashing of guitar chord structure . . unless your guitar volume was so inaudible that the only thing heard was the rhythmic phrasing and not the actual chord structure. Guitarists wouldn't wanted to have deviated from the charts in Buddy Rich's bands.
Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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11-10-2014 01:58 PM
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Well, rarely are voicings specified on a big band chart...
Freddie Green was improvising a lot really...sometimes playing one percussive note that wove through the progression...comping takes many forms...it just means "accompanyment," after all.
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Didn't Freddy Green play unamplified more often than not? I don't believe Freddy was "comping" per se. You understand comping to mean accompanyment. Some see it as COMP-limenting . . what a soloist is laying down. I see what Green was doing more as banging 4 to the bar rhythm guitar. I might be (probably am?) wrong on this. If so, please educate me. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Fair enough. Freddie Green was keeping rhythm. He played very inventive 4 to the bar behind the horn section. ..acoustically.
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Well...i think generally people think of comping as quiet, voice led, pick and fingers or fingers only chords...but comping is short for accompanyment...and freddie wasn't playing written in stone parts...
I mean, I'm gonna play with an organ player tomorrow...i'm gonna pump 3rds and 7ths in time with the groove of his foot pedals...sometimes just playing one note even....am i not comping?
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Well . . you're not playing with 10 horns either. You're more than likely gonna know what he's gonna be doing with his pedals . . . hopefully. You'll know enough to not step on him. An amplified guitar playing contrasting voicings to the written horn lines can be . . . quite interesting.?.? Especially if the guitar is hot to the point where it has a bit of edge or break up. OUCH!! Kinda like running base lines in your comping with your amplified guitar . . when you've got a stand up bass fiddle playing acoustically. Contrast?? I dunno man . . . Some spaced out jazzers might listen to it and say . . . "far out, maaaaan". lolol. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I too generally think of comping as something less than banging chords. It's actually a painful reality for me. But . . I'm workin' on it. ;-)
Definitions for comping? Composing, complimenting, accompanying.?.? Any and all of the above? It's truly an art form. Especially when it harmonically follows the chord structure and the melody with syncopated rhythmic flow. It's an art form, man. And I truly believe that doing it to the level of a Jim Hall, Joe Pass, Vinny Corrao . . etc., takes far more discipline and knowledge than blowing.
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I'm gonna be honest Patrick, it sounds to me like you don't know much about playing big band guitar.
It's a hell of a lot more than "banging out chords."
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I'm certainly not going to argue that point with you Jeff. I've never played big band guitar. I'm just theorizing on the concept of big band guitar playing vs comping behind a soloist. I just can't imagine being very creative with voicings in the context of structured harmonic chords being played simultaneously by other instruments. Also, to me 4 to the bar rhythm is "banging chords". Of course, there are always opportunities for a big band guitarist to stretch out when those chord lines aren't being played by the horn section. But, does the guitarist not need to be pretty much straight ahead during those times when the horns a playing structured harmonies? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Depends on your definition of creative, really. Yeah, a big band player won't have as much rhythmic freedom...or be able to play as many notes. But that's not all there is to creativity...
Set a metronome to 180 or so...how many ways can you get through a blues, playing one or two notes per beat, four beats to a bar? Not as easy as you think.
And then of course, you have to ask yourself what good comping is, if you follow your definition...is it finding creative voicings?Last edited by mr. beaumont; 11-13-2014 at 12:29 AM.
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There's also a distinction to be be made between playing the arranged portions of a big band chart and playing behind a soloist in a big band.
I can tell you that everyone in our big band gets visibly annoyed when our pianist treats the comping role during solos as anything other than jazz combo style comping. That is exactly what a big band becomes during solos...a jazz combo. Sure, on the last solo there will often be a "backgrounds" chorus, but generally in a big band when someone is playing a solo, a rhythm section player must go into "jazz combo" mode and must play what is appropriate...complement the soloist. Don't follow the chart. For the love of jazz, don't follow the damn chart.
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Agreed. That's pretty much what I was trying to point out in my last post. Sticking to the charts as written during the horn section melody/head lines . . then, treat the comping behind the soloists as complimenting and interaction with what they and the rest of the rhythm section are laying down. I love your analogy of a big band becoming a jazz combo during solos. I'm a huge fan of the GRP big band sessions. Talk about a who's who of top notch recording artists within a band! Their rendidtion of Airegin constantly knocks me out. Originally Posted by coolvinny
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Does "comping" stand for "accompaniment", or for "compliment"?
On purely abstract base, no practical examples, nor experience, I'm for both, where accompaniment should compliment.
Also, the way I see it, it is also for "completing", where you play what you think is missing.
if straight beat, 4 on the floor is comping. If something's not loud enough, doubling is and so on.
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Maybe it even means compensating for lame soloists.... Originally Posted by Vladan
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Haha! Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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Resurrecting this zombie thread because I'm learning the first trumpet solo on guitar. Listening to these guys' version of "So What" is... I don't think it's very good, but I share the pain of trying to emulate Miles Davis's phrasing. It's really such a beautiful restrained yet brimming-with-attitude, delicate yet tough, just such a beautiful solo. But his timing seems really unique to me. He's usually behind the beat in some way it seems to me, and these guys just don't quite get it. But who can? God bless 'em.
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We need a few zombie threads before Halloween.
Funny listening to the recreation in the original post. One’s brain is flummoxed trying to figure out what’s not quite the same as the recording most of us have heard probably hundreds of times. Maybe our turntable motor is running funny??
One thing is for sure. Relistening to the original, and in fact virtually all the recordings of Miles and Trane and Cannonball, one is struck again and again at their genius at phrasing and timing and crafting a melodic line. And the fact they all come together seamlessly into this wonderful gumbo stew of an album…
Accept no substitutes.
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It is nearly impossible to emulate horns on guitar, this is my biggest frustration regarding guitar play. Neither trumpet neither sax.
Try once Dexter Gordon then you will get know what is frustration :-) The phrases coming out from my hand and guitar meaningless compared to Dexter.
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