A note-for-note re-creation of Miles Davis' Kind of Blue

[princeplanet]

No, but I played with members of his last band. He was pretty sick at the time I was living with him. ALS. Wheelchair. But he taught me a bunch of stuff. He'd have me get my guitar and he'd show me.

Would love to hear about what he showed you .... ?

[Vladan]

Anyone remember Kind of Bloop?

Gotta love that classic Yamaha sound!

[mr. beaumont]

Reminds me of art school, when we were encouraged to try and copy the masters...

We never sold those paintings, mind you, nor attempted to get notoriety from them, no matter how good of a copy they were.

[Vladan]

And then there is this:

Art fake, interest real - Story

I personally know a person who loves Klimt so much, to actually bought one of these, by Daniel Dondé.

[mr. beaumont]

Something about the fact that such a considerable artistic skill is being used just as a commodity really bugs me about that.

[cosmic gumbo]

Some folks seem to get all kinds of giddy whenever someone posts one of those note for note tribute recreations of a Steely Dan tune, like it's actually a creative thing. I don't get it.

[henryrobinett]

There's a band here called something like Stealin' Dan. They do n for note Dan. They asked my then drummer to play with them, but the idea of having rehearse all that much and be required to be maniacal about being a clone just wasn't interesting. I'd commit seppuku.

[mangotango]

There's a band here called something like Stealin' Dan. They do n for note Dan. They asked my then drummer to play with them, but the idea of having rehearse all that much and be required to be maniacal about being a clone just wasn't interesting. I'd commit seppuku.

Well, I go to see a Dan tribute called Steemy Dan whenever they're in town. There's another one in the UK called Nearly Dan. They're both very good at what they do, though I wouldn't say that they're exactly 'note for note'. Heck, the Dan don't insist that Jon Herington plays Larry Carlton's solos exactly.

Fact is that the likelihood of Steely Dan including the UK in their touring schedule is minimal, based on recent events. Since I am a fan of the work of Messrs. Fagen and Becker and I like to see live music, these guys will have to do for now.

But would I buy a note-for-note record by a tribute band? Would I buy a print of a Tom Keating copy/fake of a Turner watercolour?

[princeplanet]

But would I buy a note-for-note record by a tribute band? Would I buy a print of a Tom Keating copy/fake of a Turner watercolour?

Would you see a remake of a famous film? Buy another translation of a famous French/German/Italian novel?

I suppose you might if you thought there could be new aspects to enjoy, or if the original could be improved.... But can the original KOB be improved? IMO, yes! Coltrane wasn't at his best that day, and Miles hit a coupla notes he probably regretted, but surely the only people who could top the "59 KOB would be the same players, from around the same time.

Sure enough, there are some live "So What" youtubes where Coltrane, at least, is definitely more switched on than he was on that studio date....

[Broyale]

Would you see a remake of a famous film? Buy another translation of a famous French/German/Italian novel?

I suppose you might if you thought there could be new aspects to enjoy, or if the original could be improved.... But can the original KOB be improved? IMO, yes! Coltrane wasn't at his best that day, and Miles hit a coupla notes he probably regretted, but surely the only people who could top the "59 KOB would be the same players, from around the same time.

Sure enough, there are some live "So What" youtubes where Coltrane, at least, is definitely more switched on than he was on that studio date....

But we're not talking about an "improvement", but a reproduction.

[princeplanet]

Yeah, which does indeed make it pointless.... There can be no meaningful analogy made with comparisons to the classical idiom with respect to reproduction, as very little classical music required improvisation, which of course is what makes Jazz Jazz. But then I don't recall the MJQ copping much flak back in the day, always thought that whole thing was a bit weird...

From a non musician perpective of course, an average listener doesn't appreciate the value of improvisation, these same listeners are probably disappointed when a Joe Walsh solo at an Eagles gig doesn't match the record! You gotta remember that KOB is the most well known of only a handful of bona fide Jazz records that non musicians actually like. These same people would not only pay to see a note for note tribute gig, but probably pay for a note for note record for the same reason they'd see a poor remake of a Hollywood classic. Clever marketing.

[Vladan]

Tough question.
On one hand, Jazz is the way of making music, by changing what is already there, be it complete compositions, well known clicheees, or improvising along the guidlines, preferably all done on the spot.

On the other hand, Jazz is what you recognize as such when you hear it.

Maybe it is the time to redefine the word and say for example, "here we are listening to precomposed (music that sounds like) [(formerly known as Jazz) style of choice]" as oposed to:
"here we're listening to musicians Jazzing up some music in [(formerly known as) Jazz style of choice] manner".

Kind of chicken - egg thing. Chicken, as we know it, came out of an egg layed by an animal different from the chicken, as we know it (ie. not from a chicken's egg).

Most certainly there were already many recordings, established as Jazz, which were painstakingly rehearsed and performed to the note, therefore, it is jazz if it sounds like one, eventhough it may be made not by (what is usually considered as) Jazz techniques.

[princeplanet]

It's gettin' a bit existential innit? It's like defining the nature of light, it's gonna subjectively depend on which filters you view it through...

Cat #1: Hey, you played that same shit last night!

Cat#2: So What? (cue famous bass riff...)

Cat#1: You can't call it Jazz cos you didn't improvise it.

Cat#2: Yes I did, I improvised it in slow motion when I wrote it, and now I'm just playing it back, exactly how I felt it when I was supremely inspired to write it, in such a way as can never be surpassed.

Cat#1: Yeah, but it should be different every time you play it.

Cat#2: Says who? Most people in the audience don't know, and wouldn't care even if they did. Jazz is entertainment, before anything else, no?

Cat#1: Yeah, but it's more entertaining when it's different every time.

Cat#2: Oh, right, so every time you play Kind Of freakin' Blue on your stereo you're disappointed that it plays the same every time?

Cat#1: F*ck off.....

[Broyale]

From a non musician perpective of course, an average listener doesn't appreciate the value of improvisation,

Improvisation is overrated.

[henryrobinett]

Jazz is in a very large measure ABOUT improvisation. It doesn't matter what the audience wants or appreciates. That's the ART of it. It's not like classical music. In classical music the primary impetus and art lies in the domain of the composer. It's HIS or HER vision, realized by the conductor and the master musician(s). In jazz it's primarily the vision of the improvisor. The composer is also very important, but truly it's the improvisor. Of course there will always be exceptions. The composer writes the music the will be remembered and serves as the vehicle, but it's the improvisation that makes it jazz and brings the composition to life as jazz.

You can't like country without also liking guitars. You can't like operas without liking singers or those who sing in operatic voice. You can't like metal without also liking power chords and distorted guitars. So you can't like or appreciate jazz without also understanding and enjoying and admiring that it is improvised. It's just the art of what it is.

I haven't heard this KOB thing. The controversy is probably overblown. But what's the point? The original recording was perfection. But it's NOTHING like playing the recording over and over or listening to Stravinsky which is a note for note reproduction of the score. The POINT is improvisation if it's jazz.

[princeplanet]

Were the Modern Jazz Quartet playing Jazz? Apparently not much improvising going on there.....

[Broyale]

Jazz is in a very large measure ABOUT improvisation. It doesn't matter what the audience wants or appreciates. That's the ART of it. It's not like classical music. In classical music the primary impetus and art lies in the domain of the composer. It's HIS or HER vision, realized by the conductor and the master musician(s). In jazz it's primarily the vision of the improvisor. The composer is also very important, but truly it's the improvisor. Of course there will always be exceptions. The composer writes the music the will be remembered and serves as the vehicle, but it's the improvisation that makes it jazz and brings the composition to life as jazz.

You can't like country without also liking guitars. You can't like operas without liking singers or those who sing in operatic voice. You can't like metal without also liking power chords and distorted guitars. So you can't like or appreciate jazz without also understanding and enjoying and admiring that it is improvised. It's just the art of what it is.

I haven't heard this KOB thing. The controversy is probably overblown. But what's the point? The original recording was perfection. But it's NOTHING like playing the recording over and over or listening to Stravinsky which is a note for note reproduction of the score. The POINT is improvisation if it's jazz.

I get all that, but let me explain.
I was discussing this with a buddy, we were playing through some blues changes when I decided to sit on 1 note for each chord. Just one note per chord and let that shlt just rock. Dude looked all confused like, "you chose to do that?" I asked him what was up and he asked why I didn't play the changes. I said, "I did play the changes."
"but you only played one note on each chord?"
"yeah? So who says I can't do that?"
"Its just...square to do that"
"So, if I wanna play one note per chord, I can do that. I'M IMPROVISING."
I asked him if he would ever do that, and obviously his answer was no because well, it wouldn't make a good impression as an improviser and its lazy as a musician. So in that moment, I realized that the point of improvisation is mostly for the approval of other musicians. Hell, improvisation for me could mean no notes, just sitting there throughout the chorus.

[Vladan]

I asked him if he would ever do that, and obviously his answer was no because well, it wouldn't make a good impression as an improviser and its lazy as a musician. So in that moment, I realized that the point of improvisation is mostly for the approval of other musicians. Hell, improvisation for me could mean no notes, just sitting there throughout the chorus.

Well, I find it it is much easier to improvise, once you get hold over something, than to learn it in entirety. Also, in TV Series Jazz, by Ken Burns, it is literarly said good part of (Be Bop) improvisational thing came out of player's lack of time for practicing and composing, because they were too buisy chasing heroin arround, while I add, once they'd chased it down (heroin), it was a slim chance for practice and composition, anyway.

[princeplanet]

I get all that, but let me explain.
I was discussing this with a buddy, we were playing through some blues changes when I decided to sit on 1 note for each chord. Just one note per chord and let that shlt just rock. Dude looked all confused like, "you chose to do that?" I asked him what was up and he asked why I didn't play the changes. I said, "I did play the changes."
"but you only played one note on each chord?"
"yeah? So who says I can't do that?"
"Its just...square to do that"
"So, if I wanna play one note per chord, I can do that. I'M IMPROVISING."
I asked him if he would ever do that, and obviously his answer was no because well, it wouldn't make a good impression as an improviser and its lazy as a musician. So in that moment, I realized that the point of improvisation is mostly for the approval of other musicians. Hell, improvisation for me could mean no notes, just sitting there throughout the chorus.

Fair point, but I wouldn't conclude from that , that improv is overrated! Maybe you could say improv is often self consciously seeking approval from other improvisors..... but what if non improvisors dig it too?
You could take it back to the Art vs Entertainment thing, if the fat lady scats a solo during her wedding band's rendition of All Of Me, is that art, or entertainment? And in who's eyes (ears)?. She might think it's Art, everyone on the dance floor may think it's Arse. And at the Fringe Music Jazz Festival, where you're pulling the wildest obtuse shit ever and your Abba loving mother-in-law actually liked it, are you disappointed because she's not meant to?

FWIW I think we all agree with Henry, but it's fun to kick this ol' can around from time to time, even just to re-evaluate what improv might mean to different people...

[Broyale]

where you're pulling the wildest obtuse shit ever and your Abba loving mother-in-law actually liked it, are you disappointed because she's not meant to?

I wouldn't care what she thought about it, honestly. To me, improvisation is a part of jazz that, I wouldn't really miss if it went away-hell, I only remember the head anyway, most of the time when I listen to a jazz song, I only listen to the head then skip to the next track. Everything else after the main melody/head/ or whatever its called, for me at least, is pointless when you think about it.

[mangotango]

I wouldn't care what she thought about it, honestly. To me, improvisation is a part of jazz that, I wouldn't really miss if it went away-hell, I only remember the head anyway, most of the time when I listen to a jazz song, I only listen to the head then skip to the next track. Everything else after the main melody/head/ or whatever its called, for me at least, is pointless when you think about it.

[princeplanet]

I wouldn't care what she thought about it, honestly. To me, improvisation is a part of jazz that, I wouldn't really miss if it went away-hell, I only remember the head anyway, most of the time when I listen to a jazz song, I only listen to the head then skip to the next track. Everything else after the main melody/head/ or whatever its called, for me at least, is pointless when you think about it.

Ha! Well, I can't be sure if you're serious or not, but I am serious when I say that I'm actually the kinda guy thats skips past the head and goes straight to the solos! .... Not sayin' it proudly, I can feel the disapproval as I write...

[Broyale]

Ha! Well, I can't be sure if you're serious or not, but I am serious when I say that I'm actually the kinda guy thats skips past the head and goes straight to the solos! .... Not sayin' it proudly, I can feel the disapproval as I write...

I'm absolutely serious. At what point in my jazz journey am I supposed to be able to appreciate a 2 minute tune stretched out to nearly 10 minutes so everyone can gangbang the harmony? When I was at jazz camp, the afternoon concerts would drrrraaaaaaaaaaagggggg ass because every damned member of the school music department faculty could have a solo. Usually, I'd be halfway asleep or browsing youtube or facebook while it was chorus, after chorus, after chorus. At some point I'm like, "Sh*t, you guys wanna let the receptionist and janitor have a go at her too while she's still warm?" I mean, who decided, "okay play the part of the song everyone remembers, then everyone in the band will get a chance to advertise their musical skills wanking over multiple choruses, then once we think the audience has had absolutely enough, we'll play the head again to remind them why the liked the song in the first place?"

[Vladan]

Originally Posted by Vladan View Post

Well, I find it it is much easier to improvise, once you get hold over something, than to learn it in entirety. Also, in TV Series Jazz, by Ken Burns, it is literarly said good part of (Be Bop) improvisational thing came out of player's lack of time for practicing and composing, because they were too buisy chasing heroin arround, while I add, once they'd chased it down (heroin), it was a slim chance for practice and composition, anyway.:

I really think improvisation is easier than learning, but maybe that speaks more of my (low) level and qualities as musician than about reality,
also, I really heard in "Jazz by KB" what I've mentioned above.

[princeplanet]

I'm absolutely serious.

Haha! That's fine, whatever blows yer hair back y'know, but seriously, what are you doing on this forum? This isn't just a room full of "harmony gangbangers", there's enough of us here from all round the world to fill a stadium!...