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Damn, that is some serious tone. Awesome.
Originally Posted by Philco
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11-21-2013 12:49 PM
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Got any more like that?! Originally Posted by Philco
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My God, that was some great thick tone. Surely the room had something to do with this.
That clip with dutchbopper trying out the a Mambo reminded me of this thick, syrup-like tone.
Someone please tell me what amp he was using?
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Actually it was Kawa another list member who found this one I think. Originally Posted by jster
To me, that IS the sound of Jazz Guitar.
All other instruments have A sound. A clarinet sounds like a clarinet as does a flute etc etc..
Even a classical guitar has a generic .....well classical guitar sound.
But a Jazz Guitar comes in two parts. One is the guitar and the other is the amplifier.
Together they make the instrument.
When I hear THAT sound, then it sounds like a jazz guitar to me.
That KB sound in that clip has so much excitement and life and vibrance.
It's a force of personality. The player, the guitar and the amp all come together.
The instrument actually speaks. It does to me anyway.
And as with many remarkable things in an art form that capture our imagination......it's both nebulous and hard to achieve.
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I've seen KB with a Fender of some description in some clips but over his long career there must have been many brands. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
But he definitely loves big 18" guitars!
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Pat Martino playing" You don't know what love is"
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Some due for the younger generation;
Don't forget to work the suit.
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Originally Posted by marcwv
from We'll Be Together Again? I believe that he was playing an L5S then, is that right?
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Julian Lage has beautiful tone. I also like Pat Metheny's tone but I prefer a more natural acoustic archtop sound. Speaking of which do you think that jazz guitar tone suffered when archtops were electrified to compensate for volume in order to make them cheaper by using plywood as opposed to solid tops?
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Wes!
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Burrell seems to have some mild overdrive in his tone.
It's like walking through a heavy mist.
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Another vote for Wes' Incredible Jazz Guitar recording. Anyone know what amp he used on this?
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Nice!! Nothing not to like about that one. Very enjoyable tone. Originally Posted by Stevebol
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On a Collings Soco Deluxe. Tom Guarna.
Darn That Dream.
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Philco,
I don't know that much about the science of tone. But let's leave the matter of jazz subgenre aside. And let's imagine somehow you could pull up that KB tone whenever you wanted. And let's imagine that you wanted it all the time. Wouldn't it still be the case that you would quite often have to reject it because it doesn't sit right in the mix? (Warning: I have some increasingly technical follow up questions!
)
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Indeed, there's more than a good chance the tone taken out of context (that band, that room) will just not work or need drastic adjustment to suit the character of another song/recording/place. Originally Posted by jster
Philco,
I don't know that much about the science of tone. But let's leave the matter of jazz subgenre aside. And let's imagine somehow you could pull up that KB tone whenever you wanted. And let's imagine that you wanted it all the time. Wouldn't it still be the case that you would quite often have to reject it because it doesn't sit right in the mix? (Warning: I have some increasingly technical follow up questions!)
I would like to think that in some cases I could eq to make that sound sit. Less bottoms more tops or the opposite.
But speaking generally, the elements........ the "stringy fatness" and attitude of that tone could work in many situations.
Songs are different of course. It may not suit a ballad. Too strident perhaps?
But if you have the essence available to you I'd "like to think" I could use that sound.
I know for a fact from my recording/production work that taking samples from one context because "you just know it will work in your track" is more often than not.... all wrong.
A snare drum that works in a particularly amazing sounding track will sound completely wrong in another even similar sounding track.
But if the "attitude" of the track is right I reckon that KB tone could be used in a modern context.........not so much for a player who uses a lot of legato....but for a percussive picker...it would be a real statement. I would mould the writing and the sonic signature of the tracks around it.
In a perfect world!
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But is it more of an issue for guitar players? It doesn't seem to be nearly as much of an issue for horn players and piano players. Of course electrification is the cause of a lot of it. And of course Keith Jarrett will have them switch out grand pianos. But there seems to be something weird about guitars, even acoustic/nylon string guitars. As much as I like that nylon tone earlier in the thread, if he were playing with a group, the colors wouldn't come through. Moreover, the tone I get from my nylon "in my bedroom" seems twice as good. More like five times as good! Of course, everything gets tweaked in the mix. And it is interesting you mention snare drums. But to take an extreme example, there are basically very few examples in jazz (or even rock) of somebody playing a solo up around the twelfth fret of a Martin guitar. (Of course, now somebody is going to go scour Frisell's Nashville album for counter-examples!) Why? "Because that tone is just sucks", we will say. But as bad as that tone is, it ain't that bad at home. Really, it isn't just Martins at the twelfth fret. Jazzers will use a zillion different tones, but they basically never play Martins!
So I don't know exactly what the conclusion is, but I'm somehow tempted by a couple of ideas. One is that the way guitars are built makes them somehow inherently intimate instruments. And amplification, even with just a microphone isn't straightforward. Here I am hoping some engineer can come in a explain how the guitar wave form is particularly messy when compared to a piano or a sax. Why, at an extremely technical level, do jazzers avoid Martins and nylon guitars?
Another idea is that electrification has given guitarists the all mightly sustain. So guitarists haven't been forced to figure out how to make a Martin sound jazzy at the twelfth fret. If you listen to world music and listen to the guitar-like instruments, from Siberia to Patagonia, it is very striking how in most songs they will rapidly repeat notes (what's that called?) to make up for the lack of sustain.
I wonder what a Martin with a body the size of a piano would sound like!Last edited by jster; 11-25-2013 at 09:25 AM.
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I think you pose an interesting question, as it relates to acoustic vs electrified guitar tone . . . most specifically in jazz arch tops. I've mentioned many times that I really don't get the obsession for tone . . or the constant switching out of pups, nuts, pots, caps, strings etc., . . in that endless quest for "that" tone. Originally Posted by DaveF
To my ears, most electrified tone . . whether it's an arch top or a solid body . . is pretty much acceptable and OK with me, unless it really sucks . . i.e. too much effects, tired old strings, a dead/defective sound board, a very poor "ice pick" treble-ish mix at the amp or on the guitar . . etc.. Don't get me wrong, I really do have my own personal preferences for jazz guitar tone. However, when I achieve it on one of my own guitars . . or I hear it in a live or recorded piece of music . . I consider it an added benefit to the music. I never really judge the actual musical content by the difference between good, very good or great tone. But, with that being said, there's nothing that hits the tuning fork in my loins like great acoustic tone . . from an instrument that's made to be played acoustically. Think Itzhak Perlman, Yo Yo Ma, Julian Breem playing JS Bach. In such situations and on such instruments, I really do think the tonal quality will add to or detract from the emotions the artists are trying project when performing a piece . . far more so than it will from a jazzer on an arch top.
I believe that the classical stringed instruments are more inclined to be perceived as a musical voice than jazz instruments are. When I hear a cello, I can relate its tonal attributes to those of a Pavorotti or a Bocceli . . . a violin to a Streisand or a Celine Dion. When I hear a jazz guitar . . . I hear jazz guitar music, no matter how great I think think the tone is. That's especially true [for me] of electrified jazz guitar tone.
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Tone makes a huge difference for me though, that's mainly why I never really got into Joe Pass' Virtuoso records. That's how important it is to me! No matter the popular perception, guitar is no less a musical voice than a violin or cello. Perhaps not as comparable to the human voice than the aforementioned but it should still share similar qualities such as fullness, dynamics (conveys emotion), colorfulness and complexity (as opposed to dull), pristine and tight (non-muddy) bass as well as shimmering highs. No matter how interesting the harmony, etc tone really affects the listening experience to me on any instrument.
As a side note, in regards to tone I have not pretense about competing with a trumpet when I play a single note, BUT when I strike a chord I sure as hell hope that I do
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When I saw Kenny Burrell at Ronnie Scotts in the 1980s, he had a great sound just like this. He was playing through a battered old Fender Twin - probably the house amp.
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Mr. B had it right, Jimmy Raney!
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Apologies in advance for once again posting this youtube video. But, whenever a "tone" thread comes up . . this is the first thing that comest to my mind. A Super 400C with a Dearmond Rythm Chief 1100. Simply sublime!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LZX5zNiMcrg
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I don't get out much, who is this?
Originally Posted by jster
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Originally Posted by ecj
word
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1. jim hall with his daquisto
towner
wes
also. anthony wilson and petter bernstein have very good round solid sound, but not as nuanced as jims
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