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  1. #1876

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    When is He strumming?

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  3. #1877
    If you grip the pick that way it's easy to strum.
    If you have a copy of "George Benson The Art Of Jazz Guitar" DVD there are a few places where GB strums like a mad man.
    It's a literal strum fest and he plays the guitar VERY hard and fast when he is strumming.

    So......it can be done.

    Many of us on this thread have had different concepts that we put forth about this technique.
    One concept that I put forth was that perhaps GB was holding the pick lightly because his pick appeared to be moving and somehow "flexing".......especially in his "Art Of Jazz Guitar" DVD.
    It does feel good to do this when playing single notes but as soon as you strum vigorously the pick just moves around and becomes uncontrollable.
    So perhaps my theory is wrong. Why does GB's pick look like it's flexing? Fender Medium picks do NOT flex.
    Was he using a Fender Thin in that DVD?
    Is it just a phenomenon that happens with low-quality video when you slow it down?
    Take a look at that video I posted of GB playing in slo mo. I swear that pick is flexing. I reiterate, Fender Mediums don't flex like that. Please try it.

    If you hold a Fender Medium really HARD with your thumb really pushing up against it, then it won't slip when you strum.
    You can also see the tip and part of the blade moving a bit between your fingers......not flexing but just flapping between your fingers.
    Perhaps that is what we are seeing in that slo mo video........and perhaps slowing down the video really accentuates it.

    Try using a much harder grip. This is the technique that JC Styles uses and teaches. He told us that......way back at the start of this thread.
    He is, after all, the only guy who stood in front of GB and also looked over his shoulder and observed the technique.
    JC Styles does not have a problem strumming.

  4. #1878

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    The only fast strumming Benson plays on that DVD happens in the 55' 21'' and it involves the three first strings, He almost always strums downwards.

  5. #1879
    Ok I don't know if this will work because this video has been blocked in all countries! I have uploaded it to my channel and made it "unlisted" but I don't know if you can see it. I can.

    If you can then there is crazy fast strumming at 3.38 4.55 6.34 and probably a whole lot more but I stopped there.

    Don't know if there are any shots of him strumming all 6 strings very fast. Not common in jazz perhaps.






  6. #1880

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    Yes, blocked, Philco. Thanks for trying, though.

  7. #1881

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    Sure it is possible to do it, but ... the problem is that I am not Benson .

  8. #1882
    Shame about the video not working. I notice that all YouTube videos of his "The Art Of Jazz Guitar" DVD have been pulled down as well. Fair enough too.

    Re the grip. Those of us that bought JC Stylles Benson picking video also received a couple of close up over the shoulder videos of JC demonstrating the exact grip. I think JC only made these available to those who bought the video.
    Those videos were extremely helpful.
    I know that doesn't help but what I'm trying to point out is that whilst there are many, many variations of the grip I have come to the conclusion that JC's is the closest to GB........and if you put the time in you will get results.

    It's also the hardest and most frustrating thing to learn that I have ever encountered in all my years of playing.

    Having said that, I think Peter Farrell has also discovered a great way to hold a pick. He seems to be able to play anything that GB has played.
    It sounds fluid and relaxed. There's a viable alternative right there.

    I don't think that the transition to that style would be as hard as the GB grip. In some ways, it looks similar to the Metheney grip......apart from the second finger thing.

    Let the pick hang out and use the inertia or ballistics of the plectrum whilst focusing on wrist movement.

    BUT let's not for one moment believe that holding a plectrum in whatever fashion is going to magically transform anyone into a masterful picker.
    I think we know that by now.

  9. #1883

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  10. #1884

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    really?

    edit: i would put it to you guys that troy grady is wrong on pretty much every aspect of benson's picking.
    Yeah I wonder.

    I found that the pick angle of Benson picking made it easier to upstroke than trad grip.

    I've approached TG with a request to cover Sheryl or some other Benson picker in detail but they really aren't interested. It's just DWPS they say.

    Well, life has a habit of surprising you!

  11. #1885

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    well, "they" don't have a clue. benson picks exactly like farlow? lmao. and what is this nonsense about only ever changing strings after an upstroke? i'm willing to bet that grady has never "tabbed out" a single george benson line. you think TG is able to write out a benson line with correct fingerings? no way, josé.
    That said, does Farlow pick that way for that matter?

    I say 'they' because while I was in contact with Troy directly a few years ago (he sent me a nice response to a blog I posted) now it's a whole team.

    The lack of curiosity to 'just see' regarding Benson picking is concerning. I appreciate Troy's work on picking, but he is focussing more and more on fusion/rock players who while impressive aren't really my thing (but I understand why commercially, also this is TG's own area of interest). Also isn't a but unscientific to make assumptions like this when I have yet to see a slow cam vid of a Benson picker's right hand?

    I await his work on Mike Stern and Pat Martino with interest - has he released anything like that yet? I haven't checked.

    What I need to do is get the smart phone adapter thing and film a Benson picker in action - maybe Sheryl when she's next over and up for it.

    It might be easier for someone in the US to do this. There are few if any formally trained Benson pickers in the UK, although some players use a self-taught variant of the technique.

    I'd also like to ask if anyone has gone to the trouble of tabbing out Benson's lines with correct fingering and articulation and if they'd be so kind as to post them here? I'd do it myself, but Benson isn't really my main focus of interest, although I am curious to see.

  12. #1886

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    From my limited knowledge I would describe Benson picking as almost using the pick shape itself to facilitate what Grady calls two way pick slanting. Man is missing a trick if I am right!

  13. #1887

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    The big issue to me with the Troy Grady assumptions about what Benson is doing is that, like you say, he hasn't actually filmed it. I think there's more going on than just the DWPS, although I do think Benson uses that most of the time. Seems to be something useful or magical about the pick position.

    I know Rodney Jones teaches people to use gypsy pick patterns on ascending lines and alternate pick on descending lines. Not sure if that's just his thing, or if he picked that up from Benson. JC Stylles, who I took a couple lessons from, didn't do any of the rest-stroke stuff, and he plays a lot of Benson licks and vocabulary.

    I've been working a lot with both the standard right hand position and the Benson one, going through Grady's materials. Still can't figure out why but I can get a good 10-15 bpm boost out of Benson picking. Maybe it's just me and my own physiology or something. I'm pretty convinced that it's easier to relax in the Benson style because you don't have to support your arm above the strings fighting against gravity, and can instead just let gravity pull your arm down. Whatever the case is, for me an eighth note lick that I top out at around 280-290 bpm using standard position will fall easily using Benson picking at 300-320 no matter how much I try to work it up with standard.

    Would love to see him get Perry Hughes, or Henry Johnson, or one of the guys who Benson actually personally taught on camera. I love Sheryl Bailey's playing, but she's not a direct receiver of the technique the way those other guys are.

    And, I mean at the end of the day the reason we're all obsessed with Benson is because he's way better than everyone else. Maybe it's just him and has nothing to do with the particulars of the positioning, but every time I start getting too far down the rabbit hole of thinking about someone else's technique I go listen to this and realize that none of those guys can play at those high speeds with that great feel that Benson can. I mean listen to this shit.



    Everyone else sounds so stiff and ridiculous at those speeds on guitar compared to what Benson is pulling off. It's nuts.

  14. #1888

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    but you do gipsy pick? do you only ever change strings after an upstroke as TG implies being essential to this picking? does TG mention rest-strokes and their importance anywhere in his vids?
    For 8ths at around 280 + ish TG's analysis seems correct to me. You have to string hop (inefficient) to move up a string after a downstroke (that's what he said) so even numbers of picked notes are important in descending lines.

    You could use 2nps shapes in descent. This is a recognised feature of the Dutch school Manouche players. GJ is very licky....

    You can also use legato. I prefer this option - allows more flexibility....

    So his analysis of GJ picking is spot on IMO.

    IIRC according to TG every non 'cross-picking' player does rest strokes at speed whether they realise it or not.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-29-2017 at 09:06 PM.

  15. #1889

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    why are we talking descending now?

    again, when you play ascending lines, do you only ever change strings after an upstroke like TG claims as being essential to gipsy picking? yesno?

    or am i misunderstanding the TG interview?
    Yeah you misunderstood TG

    You can do whatever you want when ascending

  16. #1890

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    so you're saying the whole TG deal about DWPS and what not only applies to descending lines? that can't be right?
    Gypsy picking creates an asymmetry in ones playing. It is far easier for me to ascend arpeggios or 3nps patterns than to descend. Easier as in I can play ascending lines at any speed with any combination of notes per string.

    Going down, not so much.

    This is due to the way the pick works differently on upstrokes to downstrokes.

    aren't there a ton of vids out there about dwps and changing strings from low to high?? isn't the point of this dwps theory to get out of the plane of the string for the next downstroke on the higher string?
    Dwps means your upstrokes come out of the plane of the strings. If your pick is buried in the next string down it's basically impossible to then move your pick outwards in its plane of movement without hitting the next string up.

    It's probably easier if you try it :-)

    So you have to hop over it - very inefficient movement.

    Ascending it's easy - you either alternate or economy pick and nothing is hard.

    ...

    i just watched a TG vid and it's clearly about ascending?



    he clearly says that "every last note on a string must be an upstroke".

    so again i must ask. is his description of gipsy picking correct? it's gipsy a dwps technique that *requires* only to change strings after an upstroke for ascending lines? from what i know it's incorrect. it certainly is with benson picking. (i thought we did agree on that a looong time ago?)

    i also think that TG hedges, by calling the gipsy/benson economy thing "sweeping".
    Dunno haven't watched that one. I paid for his DWPS content (on Yngwie!) and I found it to be helpful and as I have described it.

    His description of gypsy picking is accurate. He has after all videoed one of its leading proponents, Joscho Stephan, in some detail.

    The same cannot be said of a Benson picker.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-30-2017 at 05:53 AM.

  17. #1891

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    this feels a bit like nailing pudding to the wall (no offense, chris). i just watched a joscho vid by TG and joscho just picks the usual economy down alternate up style. there is absolutely no sign of only changing strings after an upstroke when ascending. if there is any preference it's for 3as (i don't dig the term three notes per string and prefer three attacks per string) so the *preferred* picking of as well gipsy and benson is to change after a*downstroke* when ascending. which is the opposite of what TG claims.

    you wrote: "It is far easier for me to ascend arpeggios or 3nps patterns than to descend." so obviously you do prefer to change strings after a downstroke when ascending (as you should imo) and are not following the TG rule.

    here's the vid.



    0:55 has a super-clear economy-picked ascending scale fragment.
    I'm not sure what you want from me lol.

    Dude I really don't have time to watch these vids as I'm teaching today and have a gig tonight, but all I can say is that changing upwards (physically) by a string after an upstroke is much easier than doing so than after a downstroke when using a downward pick slant.

    I remember TG saying that and I was like 'aha!' Instantly it made sense on a physical level.

    Ascending (as in playing lines going up in pitch) any combination works great. Gypsy picking is 'always start a new string on a downstroke', but other things are possible. For instance Clarence White style country cross picking is DWPS and goes DDU across the strings.

    Descending (playing lines going down in pitch) it is awkward changing string after an upstroke. I notice Joscho cheats his descending arps a bit at tempo by economy picking them. 2 consecutive upstrokes are practical. More than that is awkward without changing pick slant.

    In my professional musical life I play DWPS picking, and these are my experiences. If that's not good enough for you, I'm not sure I can help you.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-30-2017 at 10:32 AM.

  18. #1892

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    Two videos were you can see clearly how Perry picks. To my ears Perry has the most "bensonish" feeling of all the Benson Pickers. I see a lot of consecutive picking but not a lot of rest strokes. What do you think guys?




  19. #1893

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    Quote Originally Posted by nunocpinto View Post
    Two videos were you can see clearly how Perry picks. To my ears Perry has the most "bensonish" feeling of all the Benson Pickers. I see a lot of consecutive picking but not a lot of rest strokes. What do you think guys?



    I guess we're seeing different things or we have different definitions of rest stroke because it looks like he's using the rest stroke in that first video. The downward pick slant can't help but land the pick against the next string. His right hand technique and mine are very similar. Perry is just a much hipper player than me. Lol.

  20. #1894
    Quote Originally Posted by nunocpinto View Post
    Two videos were you can see clearly how Perry picks. To my ears Perry has the most "bensonish" feeling of all the Benson Pickers. I see a lot of consecutive picking but not a lot of rest strokes. What do you think guys?




    Yeah in the first video there are rest strokes all over. Part of his style.
    What I see in that first clip:
    • Zero muting on the bridge.
    • Rest strokes
    • Thin plectrum. Thinner than a Fender Medium. In fact, it could be a Fender thin. There are other videos of him using a Thin.
    • Beautiful feel.....timing. So in the pocket.

  21. #1895

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    Just found an even better video with a camera angle that shows is right hand and how he never rest-strokes or at least not most of the time!. Solo starts around 4.00 minutes.


  22. #1896

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    Quote Originally Posted by nunocpinto View Post
    Just found an even better video with a camera angle that shows is right hand and how he never rest-strokes or at least not most of the time!. Solo starts around 4.00 minutes.

    Well, I'm not sure what you want here. The video could be some free strokes in places and could be rest strokes in other places. It's really not clear. If you're trying to justify not using rest strokes I don't think you need to validate it with these clips. Just play the way you want to play and if it's working for you then that's all the validation you need.
    I mostly use rest strokes but there are times when I don't. I caught myself the other day in a lick swinging my pick out of the string plane on a down pick on the 2nd string so I could come back around with an up pick on the 3rd string. That's something I didn't realize I did but it works for me.
    I think the rest stroke is an important part of the Benson arsenal but it's not 100% of the time and others may have less use for it. I think it contributes to that hard snap in his picking. That's one thing I noticed about Rodney Jones' playing when I studied with him that I loved and wanted to emulate.
    However you end up doing it, remember that if it feels good, you're on the right track. Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

  23. #1897

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    It's hard to tell when rest stokes are being used at speed (!)

    Whatever people do in medium tempo playing doesn't necessarily have any connection to what they do when the shit hits the bebop fan. Gypsy Jazz is unusual in plectrum guitar circles in that it enshrines rest strokes at all tempos - but it does this because of the need for acoustic projection.

    Troy contends (and I don't necessarily say he's right, just reporting on what he said) that most players use rest strokes when picking fast... The exceptions to the rule are those alternate pickers he calls 'cross pickers' (like Craig Milner and Miller) who have developed away of dipping in and out of the strings at speed.

    To me this makes sense, but of course we have no real idea whether or not Benson pickers use rest strokes because the fecker won't film them.

    At a guess from my own experience I would say they do when playing fast, but we await video evidence ;-)

  24. #1898

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    I'm following with great interest, and using a D'Andrea teardrop + DWPS to taste (in traditional - not Benson - grip).

    Watching Alessio Marconi - not for 'Benson-picking', but for the successful way he's harnessed pick-slant. In Italian - no subs, but a demonstration and contrast at the two-minute mark.



    Check this out:

  25. #1899

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    Quote Originally Posted by nunocpinto View Post
    Just found an even better video with a camera angle that shows is right hand and how he never rest-strokes or at least not most of the time!. Solo starts around 4.00 minutes.

    Really can't tell whether he's using rest-strokes or not, but I very much enjoyed hearing Perry Hughes use a wah-wah! (It woke me from my reverie - I'd been half-expecting Chuck Mangione to join in.)

  26. #1900

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    I've been gone from the forum for several months. I chuckled out loud when I saw that this thread is STILL going strong. Incredible.