Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[MarkRhodes]

With medium picks, if the pick is approx. parallel to the string they sound pretty thin if you snap them too hard. But when you use the reverse angle it feels like an entirely different pick. .

Exactly. When you're playing with the side of the pick, a Medium is pretty danged thick! ;o)

(This causes me some confusion with talk about pick flex. I know what it means for a pick to flex or bend. But when a a Medium pick is being played on its side, well, mine doesn't seem to flex at all!)

[Groyniad]

Exactly. When you're playing with the side of the pick, a Medium is pretty danged thick! ;o)

(This causes me some confusion with talk about pick flex. I know what it means for a pick to flex or bend. But when a a Medium pick is being played on its side, well, mine doesn't seem to flex at all!)

that's why i'm making such a fuss about it - it can easily get lost - but its crucial

it does flex a bit - and the tiniest change in angle allows it to flex more

and if there's inefficiency in the pick-clamping aspect the flex will be very elusive

[3625]

Exactly. When you're playing with the side of the pick, a Medium is pretty danged thick! ;o)

(This causes me some confusion with talk about pick flex. I know what it means for a pick to flex or bend. But when a a Medium pick is being played on its side, well, mine doesn't seem to flex at all!)

It's subtle but it's there. Depends on the thickness of the pick, but also the material it's made out of. I just bought some of these new dunlop primetones (not the old primetones that resemble Wegens). These new ones are basically blue chip clones with 'hand burnished tips'. They make a .73 exactly the same size as a fender 351. Even though the shape and thickness are to fender specs, the material is a little bit stiffer. Nice picks with a warm tone, but I prefer the little bit more 'give' that fender celluloids have.

[3625]

epic thread btw - it's almost become a forum unto itself. I've been having trouble keeping up with all the posts. Now got to go back and find that GB interview in here somewhere...

[nunocpinto]

Exactly. When you're playing with the side of the pick, a Medium is pretty danged thick! ;o)

(This causes me some confusion with talk about pick flex. I know what it means for a pick to flex or bend. But when a a Medium pick is being played on its side, well, mine doesn't seem to flex at all!)

Mark, the pick should have some kind of angle to it. Even the tiniest inflection makes a difference, and never 90 degrees in relation to the string. like that in a way it becomes unusable.

Some time ago i ordered a box of fender mediums, and use them for a wile, but my batch as something wrong, because they don't flex: i am using an orange old Dunlop now and that one flexes in a nice way and makes all the difference. I think you can use any pick you feel comfortable with as long as it flexes a bit i guess.

[MarkRhodes]

that's why i'm making such a fuss about it - it can easily get lost - but its crucial

it does flex a bit - and the tiniest change in angle allows it to flex more

and if there's inefficiency in the pick-clamping aspect the flex will be very elusive

I grant you that it is elusive. I think I misunderstand what you are getting at. I can be dense at times. But since this is so important, I want to make an extra effort to get it and I apologize in advance for being slow here.

Imagine a sharp pick tip, such as on a Jazz III. It looks like this: > Let's put a string next to it, so that now have > I.
If the point of a medium pick with that tip hits a string like that, one can imagine the pick flexing. That is, when making contact with the string, there would be "give" in the tip, away from the string. One could say the string resits the impact of the pick. That resistance causes the flex.

But let's consider a Fender Medium pick held with a Benson grip. The pick looks like this: / The side of the pick makes contact with the string ( ____ ). If we imagine that pick angle near a string we see something like this / ___ Now, if the bottom edge of that pick hits a string and the impact makes it flex---where is the "give"???? Here is what we have ___/___ an angled pick slicing a string. Where is the flex?

For me, the pick slides off the string. The pick starts out already on the string (-in many cases). To me it feels much more like sliding off the pick than flexing against it.

[MarkRhodes]

Mark, the pick should have some kind of angle to it. Even the tiniest inflection makes a difference, and never 90 degrees in relation to the string. like that in a way it becomes unusable.

O, my pick is angled, believe me. 45 degrees and sometimes more.

[Philco]

I think there are 2 types of flexing in regard to the pick. A FM can flex a bit within itself…that is you can bend it a little. Then there is the "movement of the pick" between your fingers as you play through the string.

If you watch the GB instruction video closely there is a passage when he is picking single notes where you can see the pick moves (not flexes) so much that it appears to completely leave the pad of his index finger. It's bent all the way back as far as it can go without falling out of his fingers. That's not the pick flexing within itself…..and that's not a stiff grip.

Then you will see GB strum fast and hard and in concert he sometimes strums fast with his whole arm moving…..I mean you couldn't hit the instrument any harder.

Try that with a stiff grip and for most of us the pick will be bouncing off our shoe after the first strum.

There are so many angles and variables with this concept that I think you have to find the way that works for you. There are basic guidelines that are deal breakers……the pick must have some angle and the pinky must anchor on the plate….BUT then you have to figure out all the other stuff that will suit you.

I don't think that individual physiology will allow for a common method. The angle of the wrist, how much arch over the bridge, where does the thumb press the index, is the thumb pushing or is the index pushing, where is the tip of your pick pointing, how far does the pick hang out sideways, how far does it protrude down, how much flex, how much movement etc, etc, etc.

All these things make an enormous change.

Some things make perfect sense though The big one is economy of movement.
GB's pick strokes are small and efficient. No rolling of the hand or excess movement.
He points, he plays.
If you watch Adam Rodgers you can see how elegant and controlled his right hand is.

Why wouldn't you want the same attention to detail for your own picking hand?

Pat Metheny is exempt from all the above.

[destinytot]

epic thread btw - it's almost become a forum unto itself. I've been having trouble keeping up with all the posts. Now got to go back and find that GB interview in here somewhere...

Hope it's cool to re-upload it.

[3625]

Thanks destinytot - I was thinking when George was saying that his picking was in the 40's style, he might have been referring to rest strokes, not the pick angle or grip. I've been working on rest strokes lately with GB picking and think they might be a big part of his staccato sound. Rest strokes would also explain the volume he gets from his pick attack.

Not necessarily full rest strokes, but rather the pick follows through in that direction more than when doing normal freestrokes - like it's maybe lightly touching the adjacent string perhaps? Anyone looked into this in detail?

[destinytot]

You're welcome, 3625. Re. rest stroke, have you checked out post #400?

[3625]

Your welcome, 3625. Re rest stroke, have you checked out post #400?

I just read post #400 of Groyniad's, and while I agree with the whole flex thing, IMO that's separate from whether you use rest or free strokes (separate yet related). Immediately prior to his post I caught up on that back and forth between other members about whether GB was using rest strokes.

I just looked at an excerpt from GB's instructional vid - the one at his home - where GB plays uptempo single line and the camera does a close up of his right hand. Philco edited the clip, but I can't remember where he posted it here. Anyway, it pretty much looks to me like GB is using rest strokes from what I saw there.

[destinytot]

I didn't get anything out of GB's DVD except entertainment, but Philco's post has me re-visiting it with fresh eyes and renewed interest - thank you!

can grip quite loosely right on the top right corner and let the pick flex and do the work

.
I'm finding the straightened index and thumb crucial to gripping the pick just firmly enough to bring the flex into play.

I also find I can use my old Clayton 2mm picks to good effect if I reduce the angle of the pick and hold it exactly as Philco describes, but it's much harder work and the sound isn't at all the same. (I won't rule out using it at some point, but I'm more than happy with the sound I'm getting from pick flex at work.)

Please go to 21.27 and you will see what Groynlad is talking about. The pick is really "hanging out" and flexing like crazy.
This is the way I grip now. It was hard at first but now I can grip quite loosely right on the top right corner and let the pick flex and do the work.

Mark the confusing thing is that if you watch the Benson Video with Chet then he is NOT doing the same thing. The pick is tucked in more. I think he changed over the years.
What I'm not seeing is any stiffness and I'm usually seeing a 45 degree angle……but it varies.

GO TO 21.27 It's worth buying the DVD because it's much clearer quality.

[MarkRhodes]

There are so many angles and variables with this concept that I think you have to find the way that works for you. There are basic guidelines that are deal breakers……the pick must have some angle and the pinky must anchor on the plate….BUT then you have to figure out all the other stuff that will suit you.

I don't think that individual physiology will allow for a common method. The angle of the wrist, how much arch over the bridge, where does the thumb press the index, is the thumb pushing or is the index pushing, where is the tip of your pick pointing, how far does the pick hang out sideways, how far does it protrude down, how much flex, how much movement etc, etc, etc.

All these things make an enormous change.

Some things make perfect sense though The big one is economy of movement.
GB's pick strokes are small and efficient. No rolling of the hand or excess movement.
He points, he plays.
If you watch Adam Rodgers you can see how elegant and controlled his right hand is.

Why wouldn't you want the same attention to detail for your own picking hand?

I agree that if the big things are in place---the angled pick, the pinky anchor, that general "shape" JC talks about---the little things tend to work themselves out. That and of course, economy of movement.

It's funny about grip. My grip feels loose to me. I mean, there's sensation of pressure. Yet I never drop the pick. And it rotates less in my hand than my old Jazz IIIs did when I was using a conventional grip with much more firmness than I now use.

[MarkRhodes]

Thanks destinytot - I was thinking when George was saying that his picking was in the 40's style, he might have been referring to rest strokes, not the pick angle or grip. I've been working on rest strokes lately with GB picking and think they might be a big part of his staccato sound. Rest strokes would also explain the volume he gets from his pick attack.

I wondered what George meant about "40's style" too. Monk is our resident expert on books by great classic jazz guitarists----he would know what they taught about gripping a pick and angling it (-if they taught that). I'll send him an email....

[Groyniad]

I grant you that it is elusive. I think I misunderstand what you are getting at. I can be dense at times. But since this is so important, I want to make an extra effort to get it and I apologize in advance for being slow here.

Imagine a sharp pick tip, such as on a Jazz III. It looks like this: > Let's put a string next to it, so that now have > I.
If the point of a medium pick with that tip hits a string like that, one can imagine the pick flexing. That is, when making contact with the string, there would be "give" in the tip, away from the string. One could say the string resits the impact of the pick. That resistance causes the flex.

But let's consider a Fender Medium pick held with a Benson grip. The pick looks like this: / The side of the pick makes contact with the string ( ____ ). If we imagine that pick angle near a string we see something like this / ___ Now, if the bottom edge of that pick hits a string and the impact makes it flex---where is the "give"???? Here is what we have ___/___ an angled pick slicing a string. Where is the flex?

For me, the pick slides off the string. The pick starts out already on the string (-in many cases). To me it feels much more like sliding off the pick than flexing against it.

what a great attitude you have!

and the ingenuity with the diagrams is amazing

- on the topic - if you've been playing with jazz 111 - as (effectively) i have for 25 years - then you will surely feel even the tiniest bit of flex. try executing the technique with a rigid pick - its infuriating to say the least - that should tip you off. like i've said in response to JC S - although the flex is subtler if you leave less of the pick free to move, you can - kind of - feel it more because your ultra-sensitive finger tip is right there and it moves a bit against it.

[MarkRhodes]

what a great attitude you have!

and the ingenuity with the diagrams is amazing

- on the topic - if you've been playing with jazz 111 - as (effectively) i have for 25 years - then you will surely feel even the tiniest bit of flex. try executing the technique with a rigid pick - its infuriating to say the least - that should tip you off. like i've said in response to JC S - although the flex is subtler if you leave less of the pick free to move, you can - kind of - feel it more because your ultra-sensitive finger tip is right there and it moves a bit against it.

Thanks. I played earlier----always practice first, THEN come here, or else I might lose track of time and not practice---but will have another session after lunch. I'll rustle up a Jazz III to use for contrast with a FM. (I'll never hear that Steely Dan song the same way again! "FM" now means Fender Medium to me!)

[MarkRhodes]

I'm going to have to make a clip too...

[AlainJazz]

Guys, just did a jazz brunch gig this morning. First gig since I've been working on this technique. I was blown away by the tone of my guitar. I don't think I've ever gotten such a good sound at a gig. No muddiness at all. Just clear bell-like tone. :-)

[M-ster]

So, I've been following the thread, I got JC's video, and I've been working on this for about a month, now. No reverting to my prior grip -- strictly trying to "get" the Benson thing. At this point, I'm starting to feel more comfortable, and I'm liking the sound and feel of it. However, some bits are still awkward.

I find that it feels and sounds best when I squeeze and play harder (talking right-hand, here), but strumming chords is disastrous and sweeping arpeggios (particularly downward sweeps -- downward in pitch, I mean) is craptastic. So, how firmly/loosely are you guys gripping the pick?

Also, I've been trying various exercises that I see on JC's, SetemupJoe's, and Philco's videos; but I need some more exercises -- especially those that might help orient me better to the correct feel of this technique. Can anyone share things they're doing, please?

As an example, whenever I even begin to think that I can pick, I drag out this exercise (see attached .pdf) and prove myself wrong.

[MarkRhodes]

Guys, just did a jazz brunch gig this morning. First gig since I've been working on this technique. I was blown away by the tone of my guitar. I don't think I've ever gotten such a good sound at a gig. No muddiness at all. Just clear bell-like tone. :-)

Yay! That's great to hear! Congratulations.

[MarkRhodes]

So, I've been following the thread, I got JC's video, and I've been working on this for about a month, now. No reverting to my prior grip -- strictly trying to "get" the Benson thing. At this point, I'm starting to feel more comfortable, and I'm liking the sound and feel of it. However, some bits are still awkward.

I find that it feels and sounds best when I squeeze and play harder (talking right-hand, here), but strumming chords is disastrous and sweeping arpeggios (particularly downward sweeps -- downward in pitch, I mean) is craptastic. So, how firmly/loosely are you guys gripping the pick?

Also, I've been trying various exercises that I see on JC's, SetemupJoe's, and Philco's videos; but I need some more exercises -- especially those that might help orient me better to the correct feel of this technique. Can anyone share things they're doing, please?

Great stuff. I'm so glad you mentioned the issue of practice / exercises because I need more too.

As for the grip, mine is not tight at all. I pay a lot of attention that that mound / muscle between the thumb and index. I notice that when I try grips that call for more of hard-press from the the thumb on the index, that mound gets smaller. When the mound is large, my grip feels loose. (It's not actually loose. I never drop the pick. But I don't feel any pressure from the thumb into the index or from the index back against the thumb. Of course, I may have just gotten used to it...)

Another kind of exercise I could use some help on: lines that move horizontally along the neck. Wes played that way, George plays that way. It seems ideally suited to the Benson approach. But I came up as more of a position player. I can move around better than I used to but I was wondering, esp for double-time passages, if there are go-to runs that that get you used to playing in the pocket at higher tempos, runs / licks / moves that one will eventually place a personal stamp upon.....

[Groyniad]

here's a vid (revised) to illustrate control benson technique provides for

of course its ragged in all sorts of ways - but i got this thing down only last night after modifying my thumb position significantly

i'm trying to lay it on a bit thick here to emphasize advantages of the picking technique - of course you don't know what i sounded like last week so it doesn't really show what i want it to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VqRlJmanF0&feature=youtu.be

[setemupjoe]

Also, I've been trying various exercises that I see on JC's, SetemupJoe's, and Philco's videos; but I need some more exercises -- especially those that might help orient me better to the correct feel of this technique. Can anyone share things they're doing, please?

A book I like to use for warm ups is Oliver Nelson's "Patterns for Improvisation." It's written for saxophone but can be used by any melodic instrument. There's a lot of great exercises in there that will help your right hand plus there's lots of great ideas for motifs in your solos.

I also spent a lot of time listening to and transcribing phrases from George Benson's recordings. My routine was going to the gym first thing in the morning while listening to Benson on my headphones. Every time I'd hear something cool that I liked, I'd write down the track and time so I could find it later. When I went home I'd transcribe those lines and practice them that day. I picked up an awful lot that way.

Patterns For Improvisation: Oliver Nelson: 9781562240974: Amazon.com: Books

[Groyniad]

great stuff mylesgtr

seems clear to me that there's a distinctive fluency and chilled out feel that comes with this style

interesting what you say about not liking the tone and the 8th note feel

not so used to it as you are, but i find its improving tone and feel across the board

parallel improvement in four in the bar rhythm feel too - feels easy and relaxed even at high tempos