Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[mr. beaumont]

All I'm saying is, are you positive that your current technique couldn't be worked on to achieve the same results?

All of this holding the pick differently, holding the guitar differently, switching to a thin pick (that's a big one, because chances are your old technique will sound like crap)

This is a commitment. And trust me, I've tried it...and I saw in an hour how "square one" it all is.

I can't play 8ths at 300. Not particularly important to me, because I still struggle to come up with good ideas (and not resort to too many licks) at where I do max out (somewhere around 260-270, or
--and I might not be picking every note, there's slurs)

I fully understand the need for speed. But I also see how with work, and my current technique,; I can get the results I need. So my question stands--is all of this worth it? Was your previous picking technique so bad you needed to throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater?

[MarkRhodes]

I think the most important thing is getting the essential elements down. But I understand people who want to really adress all the details. After all, it's a personality trait, and people who don't think that way will not understand the obsession. It's all fine, to each their own ! We all have our personal goals, and they are all different.


Mark :

This is what I tried at first, since I read Tuck Andress's article and it said that the thumb nail should be touching the index tip if the pick weren't there. It didn't feel right for me.


Attachment 13092


I'm now using that grip, wich feels very nice :

Attachment 13091


I'm also using fender mediums now instead of heavy ones, and it's a real improvement : there is less resistance when I pick, and the sound is warmer, which was an unexpected plus !

I don't know if someone posted this link here, but just in case : http://www.sherylbailey.com/pdfs/gp061999.pdf . It's a very intersting interview where Sheryl Bailey talks about her picking technique.

Thanks, Prof Jones. Sheryl Bailey was the first person I read about using this technique. It was a short piece in Guitar Player. (The Internet may have been around but I didn't have it.) I hadn't heard her play. There wasn't even a picture of her hand showing the grip. But I started fooling around with it, seeing what I could see. One thing I quickly realized was is that there is more than one way to press the thumb against the index finger! I soon went back to what I had been doing, which let me down at high tempos.

As for your picture, the first one is pretty much how I started out (except my thumb had more of a banana shape. I'm not double jointed but my thumb has a 'bendy' look to it.)
The second picture looks similar to another thing I do, when the pick tip seems to come across the index. My hand seems to rotate more when I hold it like that and it feels very comfortable but isn't---for me yet---as articulate. If comfort was all that mattered, I would hold it that way all the time.)

I appreciate both pictures but need to ask a further question about them. Is your thumb more or less pointing the same direction as your index would be (-if you were to say, "I want THAT one there" and point at something) or is it veered out? It's not easy for me to tell from this camera angle.

JC Stylles talks about the shape being a "loop". On that note----and I will post this somewhere else on the Forum today---I heard from JC Stylles this morning and he is willing to work a deal with those who want either a) the tutorial (a long video), b) a month of coaching, or c) both. I'm going to get the month of coaching, so I'll be asking him these questions later today. To get the deal, though, you have to talk to me (privately) because a certain code must be used and I'm not posting that here. This is only for people who are serious about this.

Thanks again for the pics. I'll save the Sheryl Bailey interview and read it later this morning. Thanks!

[MarkRhodes]

I fully understand the need for speed. But I also see how with work, and my current technique,; I can get the results I need. So my question stands--is all of this worth it? Was your previous picking technique so bad you needed to throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater?

That's a fair question and the answer for me is yes. However, I want to echo what fep (Frank) said so well: it's not like if you learn to do this you can never do anything else. For example, I still play with a thumbpick sometimes. Wholly different deal. And sometimes I sing and comp four-to-the-bar swing tunes at moderate tempos---"Mean To Me" was the first standard I learned and I don't do anything fancy with it but I suppose I'll always have days when I want to play it. I just love that tune.

No, my previous technique would not get me where I wanted to go. It was inherently limiting to me. (I think so much is involved--the natural shape of one's hand, how one holds the guitar, how one holds the pick, how one moves the pick---finger motion, wrist motion, elbow motion, or some combination of these.)

Much of the talk here is about speed, and I like speed too, but what I want more than anything else is consistency. My old technique was spotty---some days I amazed myself but more often I humiliated myself. "Damn it, I KNOW how this goes---why is it so clunky?" Something about the way I played---had learned to play and had played for years as a kid who didn't know I was developing bad habits because I was playing three-chord rock and blues, which don't make the demands of a player that jazz does. When I wanted to play jazz, I realized my technique needed an overhaul. I tried several. I hope this is the last one needed!)

That said, from all I've heard from people who have nailed this technique (and are glad they did) it took a lot of discipline and time. It is a major change and there's no sugarcoating that. It's not the work of a day or week. For many, it's closer to the work of a year or two. Huge commitment, no doubt. Real "opportunity cost" there (-time spent learning this is time not spent learning something else) but I haven't met anyone, or even heard of anyone, who got this down and then said it wasn't worth the trouble.

[fep]

@ Mark

I actually have three ways of holding a pick. I'm able to quickly move from one to the other without really thinking about it. My techniques are 1) finger-style, 2) hybrid picking, 3) "traditional" picking (mine is most similar to Larry Carlton's picking technique), and 3) the Benson picking technique.

Of those, I use the Benson technique the least and for me it is the easiest and most natural motion and the easiest to develop speed with. I use it for speed. For me it's not good for hybrid picking, and not is good as coloring the tones (like Larry Carlton does).

My left hand is faster than my right hand for all my techniques except the Benson technique. With the Benson technique, my right hand is actually faster than my left hand.

My thumb bends back a lot and easily. I've found I can adjust the angle of my arm and the amount of bend in my thumb to adjust the angle that the pick attacks the strings. This way I can adjust to play flat rounds vs. round rounds. I even use the Benson technique with the acoustic guitar.

Here is how I hold a pick when using the Benson technique:

[MarkRhodes]

To all those following this thread: I heard from JC Stylles this morning (Wed, 2 July).
I asked him last week (-at the behest of another member here) if he could work a "bulk deal" for some of us who are interested in coaching but don't have much extra cash on hand.
JC said yes.
In order to do this, you have to contact me via PM and I'll let you know how to contact him in order to get a deal reserved for members of this Forum who are serious about this stuff. (Obsession is not required, but may help...)
This also goes for those who have not yet bought the tutorial. You can get it at a greatly reduced price this way. Definitely worth the dough, as many here will gladly attest.

[MarkRhodes]

@ Mark
I actually have three ways of holding a pick. I'm able to quickly move from one to the other without really thinking about it. My techniques are 1) finger-style, 2) hybrid picking, 3) "traditional" picking (mine is most similar to Larry Carlton's picking technique), and 3) the Benson picking technique.

Hey, Fep, you have two number 3s in that list! ;o)
Thanks for the pictures. Your thumb seems to veer out a bit. Mine does too. Perhaps everyone's does. But since you also use a traditional pick grip, the thumb is closer to the palm for that, right? (I'm not saying one way is better or worse, just noticing a difference and wondering what, if any, difference it makes!) When I was using a traditional grip, my pick always "turned around" while I was playing. I took to using a Jazz III with the tip pointing out over the tip of my index (and in the same direction as the index.) That's when my thumb started to veer out... Now I'm used to that but thinking, "it might be better off close in..."

[fep]

I don't think my thumb is closer to my palm using the traditional technique.

I'd like to add re: the Benson technique. If you forget about guitar playing for a moment... Just relax your hand and create a tremor like seen sometimes in old people. If you're like me there will be a wrist movement that is just like the movement when using the Benson picking technique. That's a natural movement, your hand just wants to move that way. That's why this technique is so natural and easy to use.

If I just take that relaxed hand and touch my thumb to my index finger... that is how I hold the pick. I don't need to think of angles and such, my hand just goes there. Nice and relaxed.

[ecj]

I fully understand the need for speed. But I also see how with work, and my current technique,; I can get the results I need. So my question stands--is all of this worth it? Was your previous picking technique so bad you needed to throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater?

Just a couple things in response, Jeff, because I respect you and want to give my perspective. I know you're not just trying to troll us.

Was my previous technique so bad I need to throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater? Yes.

Was this a "dead end" for me that I chased? No. I can pick as fast as I need to now. Scales, licks, arps (somewhat, still struggling a bit with string skipping) at 8ths at 300 bpm. I showed it in my vid. Now I'm working my ass off on my vocabulary.

Before I had tons and tons of vocabulary that didn't work at fast tempos. I tried slurry stuff. I had shortcuts. I did not sound like a bebop player, like I wanted. I wanted to sound like Joe Pass not Jim Hall. This technique is getting me there.

It might not be a big deal for you to be able to play jazz lines at 300bpm. That's cool. There are plenty of great players who can't hang at that tempo. I've never heard Frisell even try it, for example.

But I want to, and this is a great way to do it. And more importantly, it's not a red herring because you can come into this thread and hear from guys who are great players (Philco, Setemupjoe) that are using it and are sharing what works for them. Then you have guys like me that can at least show the chops part is down, if not the whole package of the licks and tunes yet.

Reg has been a big influence on my thinking over the last year. He keeps talking about, "Can you cover". I want to be able to cover, and I know that I need to get my shit together with picking as well as reading, hearing, knowing tunes. This is one piece of the puzzle, but it's a big one.

This shit works. I'm a guy who can't play 8s at 300 with standard grip (I show it on the vid I did for Mark) but can do it relaxed and fun with Benson picking, even though I played standard grip for 10 years and having been using the Benson grip for maybe 2 at this point. Things that didn't used to work now do. Totally, 100% worth the time investment.

[destinytot]

Personally, I have always found George Benson’s playing to be the height of joy and exuberance in the various musical contexts in which I’ve heard it over the years. I have always delighted in his trademark super-fast blues-inflected licks – double stops, octaves, bends et al. I will always be a fan.

However, most of the bluesy stuff he expresses so convincingly will always be a foreign language to me – not just because I’ve become so bourgeois (!), but because it doesn’t articulate my own experience. Pretty lines and lyrical playing is more my bag. (Of course, George Benson playing ‘pretty’ at speed is simply wonderful... (e.g. this uncredited solo @3:40

)

But my point is that the definition of my aspirations must come from my own visceral needs – i.e., from within (never from without). I now believe that a ‘growth mindset’ (rather than a ‘fixed mindset’) is all that’s needed to learn new skills.

I once asked a fellow strummer – one whom I knew to have spent time jamming with Marty Grosz himself - about Marty's tuning and technique. I was told, "You and I have been playing for too long to learn to play that way now." A decade later, when I set out to "learn to play that way" – partly out of sheer defiance of having been told what is (or isn't) within my capabilities – it was not only easier than I’d expected, but is the best musical education (and fun) I’ve ever had.

How ironic that I should eventually find the ‘Benson picking technique’ so helpful on an acoustic archtop with extremely heavy roundwounds. Mind you, my nylon strings of choice are flatwounds (La Bella 900B).

No regrets whatsover. I can still only play - convincingly - what I can hear clearly and/or sing correcly. That's how it 'should' be. But he improved articulation alone makes the change worthwhile.

And, of course, I can still use fingers and/or thumb when required...

[Patrick2]

Yep, the latter is a lot cheaper just kidding!

I guess that really depends upon the value you put on your time . . . and where the time you'll need to devote to re learning a technique fits into your own personal list of priorities in life.

[Nabil B]

I appreciate both pictures but need to ask a further question about them. Is your thumb more or less pointing the same direction as your index would be (-if you were to say, "I want THAT one there" and point at something) or is it veered out? It's not easy for me to tell from this camera angle.

My thumb is not pointing in the same direction as my index. It is almost perpendicular to the first phalange of my index. I hope that makes sense


Edit : here's a nice pic of the master himself



Full resolution : http://smoothjazzphoto.com/content/2...one2013-14.jpg

[MarkRhodes]

My thumb is not pointing in the same direction as my index. It is almost perpendicular to the first phalange of my index. I hope that makes sense


Edit : here's a nice pic of the master himself

I do know what perpendicular means; if "first phalange" refers to the one nearest the palm, then it makes perfect sense to me.

Now in that picture of George, it looks to me like his thumb is close to his index finger and pointing the same way his index would if it were pointing. (How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if...) But as JC points out in his tutorial, pictures can be deceptive. For example here, George's index looks fairly straight but I don't think it actually is because it doesn't jut out much past the end of his thumb.

I wrote to JC today and told him this was something I needed coaching in. Perhaps he can shed more light on this. (I'm hoping he's dealt with this question several times before.)

[MarkRhodes]

Thanks to all who have been in touch with me about JC's offer. I expected to hear from some of you and was delighted that many people who have not posted in this thread are interested. Some already have the tutorial. There are more of us than I knew! And each of us a sterling lad, no doubt.

[destinytot]

Hi Mr Beaumont.

You make an important point, but fast lines like these are no fool's errand (completely free of GB-mimicry):

PS. I find the fast lines that JC Stylles plays over Cherokee to demonstrate BT to be equally compelling.

[MarkRhodes]

Hi Mr Beaumont. You make an important point, but fast lines like these are no fool's errand (completely free of GB-mimicry):

Nice. I really enjoyed that.

[Patrick2]

Thought you guys might find this guy's picking technique interesting. Speaking of "interesting" . . so too are some of his note choices . . .
Also, that's a pretty nice Heritage H555 . . . similar to the ES355.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=873698779314188

[yebdox]

I like this thread. I began working on the "Benson Technique" after a lesson with Rodney J a couple of years ago. I find that it has improved my touch and accuracy when I revert to my more regular grip, as well as when I use a heavier pick, or when I'm working on Eric Johnson lines, Allen Hinds, Peter Bernstein, etc. These are all dissimilar techniques, different pick and string gauges, etc. But the finesse and accuracy that the Benson approach helps develop seems to carry over, even into a more legato style, like Allen Hinds, or punishing light gauge strings on bluesy stuff like Matt Schofield or Joe Bonamassa.

For me, it has become an exercise, rather than a commitment. I think it has made my picking more fluid and accurate, even when I veer away from the strict Benson approach.

And, FWIW, I've learned an awful lot from dead ends, and often times some surprising answers that I didn't expect. Raise a glass to dead ends!

[Frank67]

All I'm saying is, are you positive that your current technique couldn't be worked on to achieve the same results?

I fully understand the need for speed. But I also see how with work, and my current technique,; I can get the results I need. So my question stands--is all of this worth it? Was your previous picking technique so bad you needed to throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater?

all good points by everybody IMHO.

For myself I can positively say "yes, the right hand technique that I have/had is/was so bad (long swinging arm motions with stiff wrist) that it is not possible to go to any higher speed" (and I am not even strting to talk about 300 bpm). Yet, I agree with fep that it sometimes is necessary to be able to play fast - and not to win shredder awards. So, it is clear to me that I need to change something. I am also of the opinion that whatever it is in the end, it should feel comfortable and natural. This excludes Benson picking for me, which (to me!) feels incredibly awkward and unnatural (to me!). For example that picure that fep put up about his right hand position and pick grip - that obviously feels natural and comfortable to him - would absolutely not work for me. Watching the people pick who have it down (and foremost the man himself) is a pleasure though.

Instead I asked myself how my arm and right hand would be positioned if I just completely relax and work from there. That worked. For me, it does imply a somewhatmore accute pick angle (previously I had wrongly assumed the pick needs to be parallel to the strings). The rest, I guess, is continous dedicated right hand practice which I have put in over a few month and the results are encouraging (metronome, slow, focus on precision, right/left coordination etc). I guess the economy of motion and the precision of the attack is important. The Benson technique may help one to get there but there are certainly many other ways one can achieve that too. I spent some time watching YouTube videos of fast players and their techniques are all over the map in terms of pick angle, hand position, anchoring on the bridge, anchoring the pinky etc etc.

For different reasons I also got started on gypsy picking technique (on accoustic guitar). At first it felt quite strange but after a little while it started to make sense. I'm still slower than with standard technique though. I like the strong attack one gets from these reststrokes and the control it gives over downwards sweep/economy. The motion of an angled wrist is stronger, maybe a bit harder to control but it can become insanely fast while staying very clean. Again, watching the greats like Stochello Rosenberg, Birelli Lagrene or Joscho Stephan is a pleasure. I guess one could play an archtop this way. On a solidbody I don't think it would work though.

Whether I will ever be able to think fast enough to play at 300 bpm is open to debate regardless of technique :-)

Anyways, just my 0.02$

Cheers,
Frank

[MarkRhodes]

For me, it has become an exercise, rather than a commitment. I think it has made my picking more fluid and accurate, even when I veer away from the strict Benson approach.

For me, that's the main thing. Speed is nice but the fluidity and accuracy are more important. (Some shredders are fast and accurate but there's no fluidity there. Eddie Van Halen is fluid, but he is the exception among hyper-fast rock players.) My 'traditional' playing was despairingly inconsistent. I had to find another way to hold a pick or move my hand (or both) just so that I could be consistent. Now I'm getting that and I'm thrilled!

[MarkRhodes]

Thanks, Mark. But Mr Beaumont is absolutely right. The best advice I've heard was to read Emerson's SELF-RELIANCE, in which he writes, "Imitation is suicide.".

If holding a pick like Benson does is "imitation" and "imitation is suicide," then what is holding a pick the way Charlie Christian did? Or Herb Ellis or Barney Kessel? Surely, using the conventional grip is the more widespread "imitation" and would have to be the more common form of gutiaristic suicide than the Benson grip.

[Patrick2]

all good points by everybody IMHO.

For myself I can positively say "yes, the right hand technique that I have/had is/was so bad (long swinging arm motions with stiff wrist) that it is not possible to go to any higher speed" (and I am not even strting to talk about 300 bpm). Yet, I agree with fep that it sometimes is necessary to be able to play fast - and not to win shredder awards. So, it is clear to me that I need to change something. I am also of the opinion that whatever it is in the end, it should feel comfortable and natural. This excludes Benson picking for me, which (to me!) feels incredibly awkward and unnatural (to me!). For example that picure that fep put up about his right hand position and pick grip - that obviously feels natural and comfortable to him - would absolutely not work for me. Watching the people pick who have it down (and foremost the man himself) is a pleasure though.

Instead I asked myself how my arm and right hand would be positioned if I just completely relax and work from there. That worked. For me, it does imply a somewhatmore accute pick angle (previously I had wrongly assumed the pick needs to be parallel to the strings). The rest, I guess, is continous dedicated right hand practice which I have put in over a few month and the results are encouraging (metronome, slow, focus on precision, right/left coordination etc). I guess the economy of motion and the precision of the attack is important. The Benson technique may help one to get there but there are certainly many other ways one can achieve that too. I spent some time watching YouTube videos of fast players and their techniques are all over the map in terms of pick angle, hand position, anchoring on the bridge, anchoring the pinky etc etc.

For different reasons I also got started on gypsy picking technique (on accoustic guitar). At first it felt quite strange but after a little while it started to make sense. I'm still slower than with standard technique though. I like the strong attack one gets from these reststrokes and the control it gives over downwards sweep/economy. The motion of an angled wrist is stronger, maybe a bit harder to control but it can become insanely fast while staying very clean. Again, watching the greats like Stochello Rosenberg, Birelli Lagrene or Joscho Stephan is a pleasure. I guess one could play an archtop this way. On a solidbody I don't think it would work though.

Whether I will ever be able to think fast enough to play at 300 bpm is open to debate regardless of technique :-)

Anyways, just my 0.02$

Cheers,
Frank

Frank . . you very tactfully and diplomatically hit upon so many great points within this thread it would be difficult for me to pick out which of them I agree with the most. But suffice to say . . I agree with the entire post.

[Patrick2]

If holding a pick like Benson does is "imitation" and "imitation is suicide," then what is holding a pick the way Charlie Christian did? Or Herb Ellis or Barney Kessel? Surely, using the conventional grip is the more widespread "imitation" and would have to be the more common form of gutiaristic suicide than the Benson grip.

Mark . . I think what you're missing here, is that if the most comfortable and the most manageable and the most desireable method of holding a pick that you come to embrace is the one that you and you alone develope happens to mirror George Benson's . . . then, it's not immitation . . it's coincidence. I ask again . . who's picking technique was it that George Benson imitated . . before it became "The Benson picking method"? Who did Charlie Christian, or Herb Ellis, or Barney Kessel imitate?

I take the comment "imitation is suicide" as it relates to this subject of picking methods to mean . . if you choose to imitate someone's method, which was developed and/or settled upon by that person (Benson?) because it happened to be the best and most suitable method for that particular individual . . . but that particular method may not be best suited for you as an individual . . yeah, then that's pretty much suicide. If on the other hand you choose to imitate someone's else's method and it turns out to work well for you . . then, "all's well that ends well".

[Patrick2]

For me, that's the main thing. Speed is nice but the fluidity and accuracy are more important. (Some shredders are fast and accurate but there's no fluidity there. Eddie Van Halen is fluid, but he is the exception among hyper-fast rock players.)

If EVH didn't utilize slurs such as hammer-ons, pull offs, slides, tapping etc., . . . I'm not sure he would be able to play straight 8th notes at even 200 BPM unless they were straight chromatic runs. He accomplishes his speed purely by utilizing the afore mentioned techniques. Not a damned this wrong with that. I do the same thing (except the tapping . . I hate that shit). But, I also try to interject shorter bursts of picked 8th and 16th notes as well, where I find it tasteful to do so. I haven't ever heard EVH do that. Again, nothing wrong with that either.

My 'traditional' playing was despairingly inconsistent. I had to find another way to hold a pick or move my hand (or both) just so that I could be consistent. Now I'm getting that and I'm thrilled!

Then, for you . . I do get it. You have a choice to either keep focusing on improving your self proclaimed poor traditional picking capabilities . . or try something new. Cool. I get that. What I don't get, is why those who are already pretty damned good traditional pickers and can pick pretty damned fast utilizing that method, would want to totally re-learn something that's been engrained withing their muscle memory and their mental memory for decades . . . . . just to get a bit faster. I think that's what Mr. B meant when he said . . "throw the baby out with the bath water.?.?)

[destinytot]

Sorry, Mark, but I don't seem to have made myself clear. Let me take another stab at it and see if I can make a better job of it.

Holding a pick like Benson is not the level of imitation I'm talking about, but re-creation of Benson's music is: the difference between the two lies in the intention behind each.

Clark Terry reportedly called Imitation the first of three crucial stages in learning to play jazz ("Imitation, Assimilation and Innovation"). I would say that imitation of the way someone else holds a pick is the kind of imitation necessary for gaining technical mastery of Form. Similarly, imitation of single items of musical vocabulary is the kind of imitation necessary for increasing the range of expressive resources and Assimilation of the jazz language - for mastery of Style.

However, Expression requires a voice. Whose shall it be? It's not for me to speak for others; it's a matter of personal taste and aesthetics, if not of ethics.

But I will say that never before - in many years of studying, learning and playing guitar - have I known such focus, such clarity of purpose and vision, or such satisfaction as I have since I set my sights above Imitation and aspired to self-expression, to telling my own story. Now, I don't aspire to Innovation - but I do aspire to "telling the truth" in what has become, for me, a kind of Rhetorical Act. I'm saying something, in my voice. It becomes "jazz" when the right interlocutors join the conversation.

I'm taking the liberty of posting this recent photo of me doing just that: telling my own story. (I'm amazed - and, of course, delighted - that my original narrative and songs were given a sympathetic hearing at a club with a policy for music that's very different to what I was playing.)

But the reason I'm posting the photo is because of the way I'm holding the pick while playing an acoustic archtop with a 6th string that's .80mm thick, and as an example of what I'm gaining personally from imitation of the way George Benson holds a pick (thanks to JC Stylles). Of course, I'm using it for single lines too - I'm very hungry for more control.

To tell not one's own story but another's is the 'Suicide' of which Emerson so powerfully speaks.

[fep]

If EVH didn't utilize slurs such as hammer-ons, pull offs, slides, tapping etc., . . . I'm not sure he would be able to play straight 8th notes at even 200 BPM unless they were straight chromatic runs. He accomplishes his speed purely by utilizing the afore mentioned techniques. Not a damned this wrong with that. I do the same thing (except the tapping . . I hate that shit). But, I also try to interject shorter bursts of picked 8th and 16th notes as well, where I find it tasteful to do so. I haven't ever heard EVH do that. Again, nothing wrong with that either.

Well... Now you have