The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    To All,
    I've been following this thread in increments as it has grown over the past year and a half. Having decided to ask some questions, I went back and re-read the entire thread and watched the videos. Thanks to all of you who posted videos. Your generosity is greatly appreciated. You guys represent the spirit of the forum at its best.


    Although I am called upon at times to accompany singers performing standards, I also find myself having to cover blues, country and R&B also. With that in mind, I would like to know:


    1. While it appears that the Benson Technique translates best to flat wound strings, do any of you (philco, setemupjoe,ecj, 3625) think that using round wounds is completely out of the question?


    2. What gauge strings are you all using and what, in your estimation, is the lightest gauge that one could use successfully?


    3. Telecasters were mentioned briefly in regard to the pick-up selector. Have any of you successfully emploted the BT on a Tele or do you feel that an archtop is the best way to go? George seemed to do O.K. with a Les Paul the video that was posted earlier today but the LP has more in common with an archtop fingerboard and string arc-wise than a Tele.


    4. Most of you that have purchased J.C. Stylles tutorial have said good things about it. Is the video itself enough or does the coaching package justify the extra cost?


    Thanks,
    Jerome
    I held back from giving a reply, as I knew the others were bound to be more knowledgeable than me on most of those points. Regarding question 4 though, I'd opt for the coaching package for two reasons: first you get to ask questions via email or video exchange with JC, and second, the coaching package allows you to access JC's 'member's area' website which has a couple of short close up videos of JC demonstrating the technique at different camera angles that aren't covered in the main tutorial video, as well as extras such as close up photos, written faq's, etc.

    To be honest, the main video tutorial is excellent, but it's a bit lacking in terms of camera angles and close ups at times (IMO), so the 'member's area' section makes up for this & more.

    Cheers

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  3. #152

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    3625 and Stu Foley,
    Thanks for chiming in. I appreciate the responses and advice.
    Regards,
    Jerome

    PS @3625...That was a very enjoyable video.

  4. #153

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    I think I'm getting the hang of it. I seem to pick faster with a little more ease, and I'm getting the feeling that after some practice, I will really rip the benefits from that technique. I just ordered a pack of medium fender picks, just to be sure .

  5. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Jones
    I think I'm getting the hang of it. I seem to pick faster with a little more ease, and I'm getting the feeling that after some practice, I will really rip the benefits from that technique. I just ordered a pack of medium fender picks, just to be sure .
    Yes, without those picks, you could never get it right! ;o) It's funny how sold on them I now am. When I was a kid, they were what every music shop sold and there wasn't much choice. I think I've tried at least 50 different shapes/ brands / thicknesses of pick and now here am I back where I started, with the cheapest pick around. The difference is, now I know what to do with it!

  6. #155

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    Hey guys; some new cool footage surfaced on youtube: Benson in 1966 in Newport with Dr. Lonnie Smith & Ronnie Cuber.




    Enjoy
    Last edited by nunocpinto; 06-26-2014 at 08:08 PM.

  7. #156

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    That's hot stuff!

  8. #157

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    By the way, could I see a show of hands of those who have bought and used the JC Stylles tutorial on Benson picking? I've talked with a few of you but wonder if there are others here too.

  9. #158

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    Quick question: when using the Benson grip, where does your thumb press against your index finger? (Where would the two meet if the pick were not between them?)

  10. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by nunocpinto
    Hey guys; some new cool footage surfaced on youtube: Benson in 1966 in Newport with Dr. Lonnie Smith & Ronnie Cuber.




    Enjoy
    I see no 90 degree pick angle here at all. Lots of pick hanging out though. Interesting.
    Of course GB may have changed his technique over the years but I'm hearing some trade mark licks here played with trade mark speed and precision. But no 90 degree angle.

    After watching the video I can't help but wonder why that 18' guitar is not feeding back. I see the tape over the F holes and Im guessing the Bass on the amp is on zero but still the instrument sounds full.
    It's also obvious how hard he is driving the amp…it's really breaking up. It takes him quite some time to find the sweet spot with the vol control at the start……and yet no sign of feedback. Perhaps the guitar is stuffed with something?
    He seems to be competing volume wise with the organ and drums. Great clip!!

  11. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Quick question: when using the Benson grip, where does your thumb press against your index finger? (Where would the two meet if the pick were not between them?)
    My grip. Not necessarily the Benson Grip. Just what I have arrived at after much experimentation.
    But after watching the JC Styles clips and many GB clips I'm sure that one of the corner stones of the technique (and a real game changer) is having the thumb tip pressed into the index and NEVER protruding over with the index behind it.


  12. #161

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    Thanks for posting that GB video, nunocpinto. GB plays a Super 400CES Florentine!

    Now, GB, if you're reading this, please please please, good sir, cut a few straightahead albums please, sir. Please.

    This video brings tears to my eyes. Man, GB was and is always good-looking.

  13. #162
    destinytot Guest
    Hi Mr Beaumont!

    Yes, the switch has been worth it.

    Far from taking away from them, I'm finding that working on right-hand/picking consolidates those areas. I'm beginning to make choices based purely on preference and taste, thanks to increased range of expression on the instrument.

    It's perhaps ironic but, on the couple of occasions where I've played with a straight-ahead rhythm section, I've had fun experimenting and thinking, "What would Barney Kessel do?" But, while it's certainly exhilarating to discover chops - and while I'm truly delighted to able to execute ideas that were previously beyond me - I consider it essential that the ideas one takes the trouble to express be worth the effort.

    For me, switching has actually contributed to creativity. That was my main concern, but I needn't have worried. I even use the same technique to get precision in playing standards and originals in Marty Grosz/Carl Kress chordal style on acoustic archtop using extremely heavy-guage roundwound strings (and without string noise), as well as both a 7-string solid body and a nylon-strung acoustic.

    I'm now getting really ambitious: I'm trying to make something of beauty, writing arrangements for my dream band (soon to be a reality - "Gather ye rose-buds while ye may").

  14. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philco
    My grip. Not necessarily the Benson Grip. Just what I have arrived at after much experimentation.
    But after watching the JC Styles clips and many GB clips I'm sure that one of the corner stones of the technique (and a real game changer) is having the thumb tip pressed into the index and NEVER protruding over with the index behind it.
    Thanks, Phil. I think you're right about that. I'm finding that when the tip of the index points slightly away / back, it allows clearance for the pick to strike the string without the index touching it. (Sometimes my thumb still does but that doesn't bother me as much.)

    I notice you do something I tend to do, which is point the pick across the index finger. JC seems to come more out of (or near) the tip.

    It's almost maddening how just a slight re-positioning can change the tone. But when you get it right (-well, you normally do now, but I'm still like a 'hunt and peck' typist, hit and miss) the change in volume and tone is like a bell. Very nice. And I go, "There, that's got it. Just do it that way every time." But next time I pick up the guitar, 'that way' doesn't come immediately. I think JC is right that what is happening is that you have to train your hand to make this shape just so, and that takes discipline and time.

  15. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Thanks, Phil. I think you're right about that. I'm finding that when the tip of the index points slightly away / back, it allows clearance for the pick to strike the string without the index touching it. (Sometimes my thumb still does but that doesn't bother me as much.)

    I notice you do something I tend to do, which is point the pick across the index finger. JC seems to come more out of (or near) the tip.

    It's almost maddening how just a slight re-positioning can change the tone. But when you get it right (-well, you normally do now, but I'm still like a 'hunt and peck' typist, hit and miss) the change in volume and tone is like a bell. Very nice. And I go, "There, that's got it. Just do it that way every time." But next time I pick up the guitar, 'that way' doesn't come immediately. I think JC is right that what is happening is that you have to train your hand to make this shape just so, and that takes discipline and time.
    I think it's really important not to experiment too much. You have to make slight adjustments over time, but just pick one shape for a while and do it exactly the same every day for a few months. Then start messing around.

    My hand looks pretty much like Philco's (my thumb doesn't backbend, either), but I have less pick hanging out, and the tip of the pick points almost straight out from my index finger. I think that's because I rotate my hand in more than he does, so in the end the pick itself is pointing the same way in relation to the guitar, but my hand is more internally rotated. It looks to me like that's what JC is doing on his vids.

    Philco is much better than me, though

  16. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecj
    This concert vid has some great footage of Benson's picking:

    I think you can really see the rotation I'm talking about, especially when he's doing octave licks.

    He's so freakishly good on that vid. He seems like he has absolutely no technical limitations at all. One of the very few guitarists who kind of reminds me of a good sax or piano in his ability to just rip off lines at will.
    Good stuff. He's flowin', alright! I wonder what his hand looks like from his perspective..

  17. #166

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    Another question.

    (Q: "God, will this guy ever stop yammering about this?"
    A: "Yeah, about fifteen minutes after he dies.")

    The thumb. It can either point the way one's arm is pointing (-parallel to the index finger) or it can "V" out the left.
    Mine tends to "V" to the left but I've experimented with keeping my thumb in close to the palm. Makes a difference, but then, almost any change would.

    I'm wondering how it is for the rest of you who Benson pick (-or do something like that): is your thumb in close to the palm or does it "V"out to the left. "Close" is a relative term, of course. But I think the (rough) distinction between running parallel to the index or veering out to one side is clear enough (-or 'close enough for rock'n'roll.')

    Perhaps some do it one way while others fare just as well doing it the other way.

    When I picked with a normal grip, my thumb tended to stay 'in.' I'm not quite sure when it started pointing out to the side.

    Curiouser and curiouser....

  18. #167

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    Man, I hope this minutiae is all worth it, learning to pick like one of oh, a thousand players who can play as fast...

  19. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Man, I hope this minutiae is all worth it, learning to pick like one of oh, a thousand players who can play as fast...
    Thank you for your support.

  20. #169

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    Wow, sorry I said anything.


    I've chased a lot if dragons in learning jazz. A lot. This sounds like one to me. But have fun. Forgive me for being concerned and not wanting to see someone else waste time on stuff that works for others but maybe not you or me personally.

    Enjoy. Let me know if you ever want to hear about the dead ends I chased that set me back years.

  21. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Thank you for your support.
    Mark> I haven't contributed much to this thread because frankly, I just don't get it.?.? I'm kinda with Mr.B on this one. You seem to be struggling with trying to switch to "The Benson Picking Technique" and yet you still have not yet even figured out how to hold the pick. Are you really sure it's going to be worth the trouble? There seem to be many players trying to get the hang of this technique just so that they can play very fast 8th note or 16th note runs. Yet many of them still have not yet learned where their fingers actually need to go. So, they'll be able to hit clams at a much faster speed?

    Ya gotta keep your right elbow over the guitar so your arm pit is touching the rim
    ya gotta hold the pick with the point leading straight off of your index finger
    ya gotts keep your thumb directly behind the index finger
    ya can't let too much of the tip stick out or it will get hung up inside the strings
    ya need to get this special pick with a special tip that makes it impossible to dig in too deep
    ya gotta keep your palm facing upward
    ya gotta use more of your wrist
    No . . ya gotta create the motion from the elbow

    and on, and on, and on . . . .

    I'm certainly not trying to dis any of you guys wanting to learn this technique so that you can play faster and faster and faster. I just don't get why anyone would make learning this technique . . which actually means forgetting the technique that you've spent years becoming comfortable with an re learning how to actually hold a pick then actually execute an effective pick attack . . make that a priority over learning and applying the music theiry to the guitar and making music with it.?.?

    It seems very apparent that all the guys who have adopted this method really like it. But, I'm pretty sure it's safe to assume they were all "players" before making the transition. I suppose it can all be incorporated to be learned together with everything else one needs to learn along the way . . and learn it all together. But . . as Mr. B said . . "Man I hope this minutiae is worth it".
    Last edited by Patrick2; 07-01-2014 at 10:06 PM.

  22. #171

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    Pretty much everytime I play with the group I play with, a horn player, or the drummer, or the percusionist will call a tune at around 300 bpm. Usually maybe 1/4th of the tunes are uptempo. If you play latin (mambos) tunes will get called at this tempo. If you play bebop tunes will get called at this tempo. I would think anyone playing jazz in ensembles would find themselves needing to be able to play real uptempo.

    I can't hang and just pass on playing solos for those tunes which is pretty lame. For that matter I struggle at 200bpm. Even if I can make the changes at 300bpm, I don't have the picking technique to execute it, I don't have the picking technique to even practice it.

    If you don't find yourself in those situations or if you do and you can hang at those tempos then no need to spend time experimenting with different picking techniques.

    I've spent a lot of time and a lot of work and have hit the wall on trying to increase my picking speed using a "traditional" technique, just like a lot of others have mentioned here. I wouldn't try to change my picking technique just for laughs, there is a very immediate and pressing need for me to be able to solo at 300 bpm. I really would rather not play at that tempo, but I want to play with the ensemble that I'm playing with.

    Also, I'm not abandoning my previous picking techniques, I'm just adding this one for when I have to play faster than my other techniques can handle.
    Last edited by fep; 07-02-2014 at 12:16 AM.

  23. #172

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    I dig the minutae of how to hold a pick and how to strike a string as best as I can - I'm totally fascinated by it. Instead other guys obsess over handwound pickups, amps, wood grade on a spruce top (Patrick!) etc.

    When I got the JC Stylles package, I felt a sense of relief that I found someone who was clearly even more obsessive than I was about picking on an archtop.

    All too many archtop players have a shitty weak right hand technique - it's what holds so many players back. The Benson picking path is one of a few ways that works well, however, it's particularly well suited towards archtop players who use flatwounds. The whole issue of gains in speed can be a bit misleading - to me the real issue is how well can you hit a note, a single note - how accurate and in time can you hit it - especially over a slow tempo. Without having a consistent pick technique you won't be able to play well in the pocket, or focus on musical ideas - because as soon as you try and get something happening- if you can't execute what you're hearing in your head, it'll just sound like a clumsy struggle, which is incredibly frustrating.

    I can understand a sense of antipathy towards tasteless shredding, but that's a completely different issue to what constitutes effective technique. An example is Jim Hall, he wasn't a great player with bad technique, he was a great player with great technique - just not a fast player. But he knew how to hit a note properly and cleanly in time. That's what I'm trying to go for, plus be able to handle whatever tempo I actually feel like playing.

    Me and Mark have exchanged private vids over thumb and finger placement - tons of fun. You cats are missing out! lol

  24. #173

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    I think the most important thing is getting the essential elements down. But I understand people who want to really adress all the details. After all, it's a personality trait, and people who don't think that way will not understand the obsession. It's all fine, to each their own ! We all have our personal goals, and they are all different.

    Now I also understand the comments about how it's silly to want to learn to play fast when you don't even have the ability to make the changes at high tempos. But to me, Benson picking is not only about speed : it's about using mechanics that allow you to be relaxed, using the optimal amount of energy to pick. And this is where the speed comes from (that is just what I deducted from the different testimonies, I'm not quite there yet). So why should one wait to learn that ? As long as we keep developing the other areas, it's all fine. Horn players work on their sound everyday. As guitarists, our sound is greatly affected by the way we pick. It's an important subject, that is worth digging into.


    Mark :

    This is what I tried at first, since I read Tuck Andress's article and it said that the thumb nail should be touching the index tip if the pick weren't there. It didn't feel right for me.


    Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo-img_2299-jpg


    I'm now using that grip, wich feels very nice :

    Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo-img_2300-jpg


    I'm also using fender mediums now instead of heavy ones, and it's a real improvement : there is less resistance when I pick, and the sound is warmer, which was an unexpected plus !

    I don't know if someone posted this link here, but just in case : http://www.sherylbailey.com/pdfs/gp061999.pdf . It's a very intersting interview where Sheryl Bailey talks about her picking technique.

  25. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3625
    I dig the minutae of how to hold a pick and how to strike a string as best as I can - I'm totally fascinated by it. Instead other guys obsess over handwound pickups, amps, wood grade on a spruce top (Patrick!) etc.

    When I got the JC Stylles package, I felt a sense of relief that I found someone who was clearly even more obsessive than I was about picking on an archtop.

    All too many archtop players have a shitty weak right hand technique - it's what holds so many players back. The Benson picking path is one of a few ways that works well, however, it's particularly well suited towards archtop players who use flatwounds. The whole issue of gains in speed can be a bit misleading - to me the real issue is how well can you hit a note, a single note - how accurate and in time can you hit it - especially over a slow tempo. Without having a consistent pick technique you won't be able to play well in the pocket, or focus on musical ideas - because as soon as you try and get something happening- if you can't execute what you're hearing in your head, it'll just sound like a clumsy struggle, which is incredibly frustrating.

    I can understand a sense of antipathy towards tasteless shredding, but that's a completely different issue to what constitutes effective technique. An example is Jim Hall, he wasn't a great player with bad technique, he was a great player with great technique - just not a fast player. But he knew how to hit a note properly and cleanly in time. That's what I'm trying to go for, plus be able to handle whatever tempo I actually feel like playing.

    Me and Mark have exchanged private vids over thumb and finger placement - tons of fun. You cats are missing out! lol
    BIG difference in preferring the look of a specific type and grade of wood and having to re learn a technique which has been ingrained in one's self for over 3 decades. I've learned to be very comfortable in the way I hold and play a guitar . . including my method and technique for picking. It's what works for me and I rally don't care to have to re learn that. There are just way too many other things I'm not proficient at to have to worry about hanging with cats who call out tunes at 300 BPM. However, if that were to be the case . . I can probably hang with them (speed wise, anyway) at 300BPM unless I tried to blow steady 8th notes and pick each and every one of them at that tempo. I really don't care to become another John McLaughlin . . . who, by the way . . does not utilize the Benson method but more of a traditional method . . and articulates with more of a wrist hinge than an elbow hinge. Is John McLaughlin's picking speed inadequate to hang with cats blowing at 300 BPM while he's running his non stop 8th notes?

    Whe this whole subject first came up, I actually did a self check on my own picking technique. It's very much like McLaughlin's and at times also like Tal's. If I never get any faster than those two cats . . I'm pretty much OK with that. I also like to alter the orientation of my pick angle and my attack to achieve different tone and mood. One of the things I dislike about Benson's tone . . is that I find it to be boringly consistent. I much much prefer Benson's tone when he's not using his pick.

    fep> I don't wish to speak for anyone but myself. But, in that your comments were aimed specifically at Jeff and me . . I didn't see where either of us were taking exception with anyone wanting to learn this method. All I ever said . . and all I ever heard Jeff say was that we just didn't quite get it. Most especially (IMO) the way MarkRhodes seems to be obsessing over it. As for yourself being able to hang with your current ensemble when they call out tunes at hyper speeds . . how about playing quarter notes? Breathing between lines? Half notes? Shorter bursts of 8th note runs? I've heard your clips. I know you can do that. Hey, listen man . . if learning the Benson method is what you want to do and you feel as though your playing will benefit by doing so . . . then, that's definitely the right thing for you to do. Same sentiments go out to MarkRhodes and anyone else who chooses to do so.

    Who knows? Maybe one day Jeff and I will get it. But, for right now . . I still don't. But, that's just me.

  26. #175

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2
    BIG difference in preferring the look of a specific type and grade of wood and having to re learn a technique which has been ingrained in one's self for over 3 decades.
    Yep, the latter is a lot cheaper just kidding!