The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1051

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stu Foley;505209
    So like George, it's rest-strokes on the down stroke, but he doesn't adhere to the the Gypsy picking rule of [U
    always[/U] down-picking when changing strings. Just trying to get it straight in my head.
    Joe Pass talked in video about always changing strings with a downstroke. He thought it gave lines more definition. He makes a good case for that.

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  3. #1052

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stu Foley
    ..but not strictly starting with a down-stroke when descending in pitch would you say Evan? EG. If he down picks the G string then he doesn't come from above and down pick the D string but would play the D string with an up stroke. Is that the way you have trained yourself to do it?

    So like George, it's rest-strokes on the down stroke, but he doesn't adhere to the the Gypsy picking rule of always down-picking when changing strings. Just trying to get it straight in my head.
    I've seen Benson changing with upstrokes. I don't see Perry Hughes doing it on that vid clip. I think Benson and his devotees really break all the rules.

    JC Stylles alt picks and doesn't do the rest stroke thing, so I don't think you have to. That's probably why he often sounds like he's channeling Martino.

  4. #1053
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by ecj
    I think it's really important to not make too many changes. You have to adjust, but you also have to put some consistent work in on one thing before you figure out whether or not it actually works.
    Thanks, ecj, for your very helpful and timely advice about the "door knob turn" (on the thread "Help me assess my right-hand technique").

    A desire for efficiency at speed is leading me to examine how the pick sets the string in motion. Rather than causing me to make changes, I'm consolidating the fundamentals in the production of tone. In choosing a pick for efficiency at speed, I've become particularly interested in the camber and the smoothness of release of the pick from the string (as well as its grip and propensity to flex).

    It seems to have dawned on me that what's going to help me get closer to achieving that desire is understanding and application of those fundamentals. It also dawns on me what enormous gratitude I owe JC Stylles; if not for his tutorial, I wouldn't have even begun to access such abstract concepts, let alone purposefully practise them.

    So... I decided to read Tuck Andress's articles more closely, and was particularly struck by what he says about "proper use of gross muscles first, thus properly supporting more subtle muscles". Love it! That really resonates with me.

    And these words, too: "This brought me to the final conclusion that a good life approach for me would be to go full circle, from random picking driven by ignorance and technical deficiency, to a variety of systematic approaches driven by the need to understand, to systematically weird approaches driven by the need to be complete, then finally back to randomness supported by technical mastery, driven by phrasing considerations or whim." (from http://1.2.11 Alternate/transverse/r...n single lines)
    Last edited by destinytot; 02-26-2015 at 07:46 AM. Reason: addition

  5. #1054
    destinytot Guest
    how the pick sets the string in motion
    By pressing and releasing the string in a way that causes the string to vibrate in movement perpendicular to the guitar's (arched) top and back.
    Last edited by destinytot; 02-28-2015 at 03:47 AM.

  6. #1055

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    I used Pro-Plec 351's exclusively for a couple of years, but that was before switching to Benson picking. I know that Henry Johnson uses them, but I can't get with them. Anything over .73 with this technique feels like I'm trying to pick with a dinner plate.

  7. #1056
    destinytot Guest
    Late-night observation after giving the Pro-Plec its first outing on a (solo) gig.

    These picks have opened a world of possibilities; I really took my time and played with conviction.

    But the surprise was my left hand. I've developed awareness of my picking hand but not of my fretting hand. I don't know how to explain it, but the fingers of my fretting hand seemed to be bringing flow to lines by pulling off the strings to the side in a way that just felt - and sounded - right.

    I'm eager to know exactly how I did this. (The thought that crossed my mind when I noticed it coming together was, "The body knows.")

  8. #1057
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by 3625
    Anything over .73 with this technique feels like I'm trying to pick with a dinner plate.
    I think I know what you mean. There's a kind of 'loud-soft-soft-loud-soft-soft' shape to lines that I particularly enjoy (basically, Sean Levitt); this picking technique makes those dynamics achievable with a medium pick, but the Pro-Plecs make it so much easier. Their softness belies their actual (1.55mm) thickness.

    I particularly love the way the Pro-Plecs engage and release the string. I paid special attention to my picking technique tonight, anchoring the pinky (curled) and third fingers, extending the middle one, and carefully controlling the degree of 'play'/'pick flop'.

    I really enjoyed 'listening' and adjusting as I played (for myself), feeling tempo and dynamics - which the pick and guitar seemed to produce without effort from me. I even played melodies of ballads that I usually sing, and I worked out several as I played them, on the spot. I put that down to the pick; I felt comfortable and relaxed with it.
    Last edited by destinytot; 03-05-2015 at 08:52 PM. Reason: spelling

  9. #1058

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    Just found this the other day - enjoy chaps:



    JC's chops are as good as anyone's on the scene IMO. Particularly cookin' is where JC and Pat Bianci trade fours.

  10. #1059

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3625
    Just found this the other day - enjoy chaps:



    JC's chops are as good as anyone's on the scene IMO. Particularly cookin' is where JC and Pat Bianci trade fours.
    Good stuff! Thanks. Hadn't heard Jc play in awhile. Still got it going on!

  11. #1060

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    Hey Mark, you mentioned a couple of weeks ago that JC was going to do another follow-up video about picking where he would cover a few fine points. Do you know anything more about it?

  12. #1061
    destinytot Guest
    Hadn't heard this; Benson, live in 1999...

  13. #1062

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    JC killin it... but as far as feel of melodic lines and comping.... listen to Pat on keyboard. Can you hear the difference... night and day... It's just a blues....But listen to the shape and lengths of the phrases and how they work with the groove... the feel at 320 + Still dig JC's playing... how many can can cover... If I was in the audience, I would be wowin.

  14. #1063

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3625
    Hey Mark, you mentioned a couple of weeks ago that JC was going to do another follow-up video about picking where he would cover a few fine points. Do you know anything more about it?
    No, I"m afraid I don't. I'm not sure what the hold up is. (He was going to have something last October....) When I hear something from him, I'll holler. Might send him a follow up email, though I don't want to seem like a pest....

  15. #1064

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    JC killin it... but as far as feel of melodic lines and comping.... listen to Pat on keyboard. Can you hear the difference... night and day... It's just a blues....But listen to the shape and lengths of the phrases and how they work with the groove... the feel at 320 + Still dig JC's playing... how many can can cover... If I was in the audience, I would be wowin.
    Yeah. It's hard to compare guitarists to piano players. There are very few guys who could nail anything interesting at that tempo on our instrument.

    Especially the guys who go for heavier articulated bebop: Benson, Oberg, Lagrene? Can't really think of anyone else who wouldn't sound choppy.

    Metheny figured out a system that lets him fly at those speeds, but it's not really bebop. Same with Holdsworth and all the other slurry dudes.

  16. #1065

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    I guess... What's interesting, The tempos up but their just playin 8th notes, generally at most gigs I find having drums and bass that lock at that tempo is the problem. playin isn't. Thats one of the advantages of having same player kickin bass and comping.... their locked in the pocket.

    Playing 8ths at 320 etc... through complex changes or sight reading difficult lines... would be a problem, not playin a blues.
    We're talkin about pros, right. If we're talking about amateurs... that's a different discussion.

    I tend to find that most guitar players can't comp at faster tempos, which is much more useful than just shreddin blues lines.

    I mean if you took say 10 of the pros on this forum... most could solo through most tunes at 300 +... but I would guess we all would have more problems comping with something interesting, and by interesting I mean implying the harmony and being part of an organized groove that feels natural to the tune. I know if we bring in the amateur players, of which many play, (solo), as well as pros, the level of comping skills drop. Most would just watch the tune go by... I would totally dig being wrong etc...but

    Not that it really means anything, and sorry from getting away from picking technique, but generally we comp more than we solo... unless you are someone like GB.

  17. #1066

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    I hear you Reg but you gotta admit that you're a tough crowd... which guitarists (previous greats etc.) would you say can solo well over 300ish tempos and keep the groove going? There's Benson and Martino, and probably a few others, but it's a pretty small club in terms of what you're talking about, that is, being on the level with horns and keyboards.

  18. #1067

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    There are cats... but i don't just consider myself a guitarist, I'm a musician and believe in musicianship... I always group myself with all instruments, all horns, piano etc... maybe that's why I consider myself a med level pro. no excuses. I do have to admit horns do have a tough time layin down rhythm... Although some guys can play some really cool guide tone like grooves... duos and trio settings.

  19. #1068

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    Back to the question from Jon (3625). I emailed JC and this is what he wrote back. (I told him I would share his answer with the rest of the Forum.)

    >>>>Hi Mark,
    Apologies for the delay due to technical difficulties with camera
    equipment. Hoping to rectify between today and Thursday.
    Cheers,
    JC<<<<

  20. #1069

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    Thanks Mark

  21. #1070
    destinytot Guest
    Happiness is... heavy strings, heavy pick (merci, Pro-Plec) and a touch as light as a feather.

    As an amateur, I consider myself very lucky indeed to gig at all in this city Valencia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, teeming as it is with talented musicians - students and professionals - from all over the world.

    While this holds true for many places, as far as jazz is concerned, the standard here is second to none. And while professional musicians are responding in a range of ways, the dearth of gigs in this economy has vindicated the amateur as 'one who loves'.

    On 2nd April, thanks to what I've learned by participating in this forum, I have that rarest of opportunities, the chance to gig with a professional Hammond player + a world-class percussionist. I'm going to sing and play some Soul; songs that I love, but which I've never played before. It's holiday time here, and I'm preparing my set:
    THE CLOSER I GET TO YOU
    COULD IT BE I’M FALLING IN LOVE
    FOR THE LOVE OF YOU
    GOT TO BE THERE
    I CAN’T HELP IT
    JUST THE TWO OF US
    BETCHA BY GOLLY, WOW
    LA-LA-LA MEANS (I LOVE YOU)
    WALK ON BY
    THE LOOK OF LOVE
    A HOUSE IS NOT A HOME
    THIS GUY’S IN LOVE WITH YOU
    I SAY A LITTLE PRAYER
    And regarding time, I'm making a refuge of Hal Galper's teaching in 'Minimising Emotion'. I've played and sung bossa nova for decades now; time to stop tip-toeing around the tulips and to apply, in creative ways, some of what I've learned along the way.

    I feel these words from Antonio Carlos ('Tom') Brasileiro de Almeida Jobim are worth quoting in full: 'The writer Mario de Andrade would say, "My son, if you're no great talent, you should make Brazilian music. If you're Brazilian, make Brazilian music. If you're average, make Brazilian music. If you're a genius, you've got even more reason to make Brazilian music, because the world is full of musicians. You don't have to go Germany or the States to be just one more musician. It's full of musicians over there, great musicians. So you do better, be more useful to the planet, make Samba. Or make Brazilian music and let it grow." I'm not for the stagnant kind of Samba, something you can't play with. No, I think you can reinvent everything.' From:


    I no longer feel quite so paralysed by the 'Anxiety of Influence'. Without mimicry, I'm drawing inspiration from not only Benson, but Ed Cherry, Perry Hughes and - most of all - the lyrical lines of Sean Levitt. As a singer, melody is perhaps my strength, and that's what I intend to play to (as well as being the most probable reason for having landed the gig).

    It's not that I mind getting roasted, which used to happen at jams (not because of my playing, which was forgettable, but because of my attitude, which was not). Besides, playing with the Pro-Plec is making my articulation so much smoother.

    It's because I want the experience to be positive for listeners and players alike.

    I think anyone in their right mind would want the same.

    And I think it'll be fun.
    Last edited by destinytot; 03-18-2015 at 09:42 AM.

  22. #1071

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot

    On 2nd April, thanks to what I've learned by participating in this forum, I have that rarest of opportunities, the chance to gig with a professional Hammond player + a world-class percussionist. I'm going to sing and play some Soul; songs that I love, but which I've never played before.
    That's great! I trust you will record at least some of the tunes and share them with us. That should be something.

  23. #1072

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    Destinytot.... your a good man.

  24. #1073

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    ECJ-One of the benefits of the technique is that Up & Downstrokes are more even soundwise, so one doesn't have to be so concerned with that thinking so much. Of course, a downstroke on a downbeat is always going to be a more solid choice, however for phrasing to sound more talkative, breaking up the options can also make it more interesting.

    If our aim is to communicate, then we can think of a note possibly as a word, a series of notes as a sentence, a few sentences as a paragraph, and our aim is to ultimately tie it all together to tell a story.

    So sometimes by starting a phrase on an upstroke, the sound might be a little more distinctive, similar to how someone might pronounce a word differently to someone else in trying to get a point across.

    My advice always is to take note of these variations during practice and internalize them, so you can forget about them when you are playing and just get to the music part, and these things can turn up automatically.

    MARK- Keep going, I promise you the more you just pay attention to the detail of the technique during your daily practice routine, the more it will refine itself. I am always up front in telling all players looking to grasp the technique that I will still start any practice off with 10 minutes in front of the mirror watching the right hand- this is important so the mind continues to be convinced of what the correct action is and doesn't talk back to you and decide to do it's own thing. Eventually it falls into line, but the reminder keeps it not only on course, but polishes it like a diamond.

    Cheers-JC Stylles

  25. #1074

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    its amazing how much the tone changes with the tiniest movement of the thumb at the back of the pick. this is no doubt why jc stresses that finding the sound/feel you like is crucial and largely - with this amazing technique - comes down to exactly where you place the thumb on the pick

    placed very high up the pick you maximize the flex effect and you get a colder brighter sound and a more staccato feel (which you may not like - or which might be hard to control)

    placed even slightly lower down you cut down on the flex effect and you get a warmer darker sound and a less staccato feel

    i'm drawn to the warmer sound - as i'm sure a lot of people will be - but this takes you away from the benson sound and makes it harder to spit out rapid-fire lines with perfect articulation in the great benson style.

    i may well be happy to give up some of the facility and clarity in the name of warmth and smoothitude

  26. #1075

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    Exactly Groyniad-well said! So ideally, once the foundation is understood and the technique is settled in, the tinniest changes that an individual player makes will modify the sound according to what they prefer. You are then in control of your tonal destiny, without technical restrictions.


    Cheers-JC Stylles