The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #951

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Is that like a scrunchy (or hair-tie)?


    Herb Ellis----who didn't Benson pick---always played with a string dampener. I think George Van Eps came up with it. (I'm not sure about that; Monk would know.)

    Attachment 16318
    Yes, I believe it was a George van Eps dampener. Herb used it a lot. I remember him talking about it back in the early 80's at a clinic I went to.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #952

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    Yes, I believe it was a George van Eps dampener. Herb used it a lot. I remember him talking about it back in the early 80's at a clinic I went to.
    In his video, where he plays a few scales, you can really hear the "thud" he got from it.
    I've never played a guitar that had a dampener on it. Frankly, I'm surprised they are not more popular, given that most of the time in jazz, one isn't using many (any?) open strings? Actually, Herb used open strings now and then and could with the dampener, so it's not like they ruin that. They just keep it from ringing on and on and on....

  4. #953

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3625
    Hey Mark, wasn't a scrunchy - I've seen people use those on youtube, but they look a bit over the top for me - in terms of performing in public. I'm using a velcro band that originally came with my laptop power cable as a tie bundle:



    Doesn't look too noticeable, especially since my guitar's fretboard is ebony and doesn't have any inlay. To mute properly, it works best in the middle of the first fret - but if I need better access to first fret notes, I find it naturally slides back to just in front of the nut when I play. Then I just gently put it back in the middle position mid-song. I didn't have to give it any serious attention while playing, which is obviously a good thing.

    As an aside - Marty Friedman has arrived at his own unique solution for this problem. If I end up doing a gig in Sydney, I'll see if I can get Rich to help me out

    I guess we could call that the Friedman Finger! )

    The scrunchy is thin -the elastic band, that is---so you can put it right by the nut and it won't move. The fabric is super-light, so if you touch it, it's not a problem at all. Someone marketed a velcro band just for this, and I think I posted a pic/ video of it and I think it was docbop who said, 'just use a scrunchy, same thing, costs a buck.' I tried one and it worked fine.

  5. #954
    Stanley Jordan - who uses a completely different technique to pretty much any other jazz guitarist- tends to use guitars that have a band of velvet built into the first fret to act as a mute to unwanted sounds while he's tapping.

  6. #955

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    First time poster here: I recently got back into playing after 10 years or so. And I remember having big problems with fast alternate picking that I would make up with economy picking so that everything still sounded picked when I wanted it to.

    Now that I'm approaching the guitar with a fresh perspective I tried to understand why I have so much more control when economy picking and I realized I bend my thumb backwards and hold the pick almost perpendicular to the strings. So I tried to alternate pick that way as well and right away I could pick really fast precise and clear. It is then that I started googling to see if anyone else does that and I came across Benson picking. Maybe I do things a bit different because I can still palm mute.

    Ultimately what I took away from this is that everyone's body is different and for me bending my thumb allowed me to loosen my wrist and exploit my thumb muscle more and made the picking effortless. I still do normal picking when doing slower runs with a lot of string skipping... But I guess now I just trust my body instead of trying to force it into a particular technique and I'm already playing better than I ever did.

  7. #956

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    Quote Originally Posted by soto
    First time poster here: I recently got back into playing after 10 years or so. And I remember having big problems with fast alternate picking that I would make up with economy picking so that everything still sounded picked when I wanted it to.

    Now that I'm approaching the guitar with a fresh perspective I tried to understand why I have so much more control when economy picking and I realized I bend my thumb backwards and hold the pick almost perpendicular to the strings. So I tried to alternate pick that way as well and right away I could pick really fast precise and clear. It is then that I started googling to see if anyone else does that and I came across Benson picking. Maybe I do things a bit different because I can still palm mute.

    Ultimately what I took away from this is that everyone's body is different and for me bending my thumb allowed me to loosen my wrist and exploit my thumb muscle more and made the picking effortless. I still do normal picking when doing slower runs with a lot of string skipping... But I guess now I just trust my body instead of trying to force it into a particular technique and I'm already playing better than I ever did.
    IMO, this puts things into proper persepctive. Welcome back to the world of guitar, after 10 years.

    Great first post Senor Soto!

  8. #957

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    i just put a thin bit of felt under the strings at the top of the first fret - well what a difference that makes

    no more muting issues!

    at last i've found a way to stop the guitar sounding like a piano with the sustain/loud peddle depressed the whole time

    wow
    Last edited by Groyniad; 12-07-2014 at 08:05 AM.

  9. #958

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    Destinytot - I've been meaning to say this for a while now: you sing like a mofo. Dug the guitar accompaniment as well. The one complimented the other perfectly.

  10. #959

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    i just put a thin bit of felt under the strings at the top of the first fret - well what a difference that makes

    no more muting issues!

    at last i've found a way to stop the guitar sounding like a piano with the sustain/loud peddle depressed the whole time

    wow
    Yay!

    I've done that before too. I had a problem with the felt moving/ bunching up.

    Carol Kaye used to tape felt over her bass strings, but near the bridge, not the nut. She used masking tape. Worked for her...

  11. #960

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Yay!

    I've done that before too. I had a problem with the felt moving/ bunching up.

    Carol Kaye used to tape felt over her bass strings, but near the bridge, not the nut. She used masking tape. Worked for her...

    talk about a small thing making a big difference!
    the guitar feels totally different - its almost scary.
    but i've been having trouble with random string ringing (sympathetic vibes and accidental flicks etc.) for a long time - and the prospect of learning left hand muting techniques to solve the problem was daunting.

    if jim hall used a dampener on his cuts with paul desmond then it can't be wrong (what better guitar sound is there than that?)

    it will take some time to get used to the guitar feeling so much less 'sensitive'

  12. #961
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    i just put a thin bit of felt under the strings at the top of the first fret - well what a difference that makes

    no more muting issues!

    at last i've found a way to stop the guitar sounding like a piano with the sustain/loud peddle depressed the whole time

    wow
    Hey Groyniad! Any chance of another of your great video demos? I'm intrigued by this.

  13. #962
    destinytot Guest
    God, how I love George Benson's playing! His solo @6m30secs:

  14. #963
    Saw this on another thread and just had to post it. This is NOT me and at the risk of being guilty of "fame by association" I will venture to say that this players Benson picking is where I have arrived. That is to say this is almost exactly how I'm holding my pick and using my finger movement. This gentleman has put everything I have discovered about position of wrist blah blah ad nausea......anyway this is pretty much it in a nutshell. Pick flexing, holding pick in upper right corner, pick hanging out, ability to mute with side of hand and also hybrid pick with fingers.
    Not saying it looks like GB but this is a very viable way to use a pick. Note the freedom and relaxed attitude.


  15. #964
    Philco, thank you for posting that video.

    The biggest issue I've had in Benson picking is that it (as I've usually seen it played) aggravates my elbow because my hand is turned out in a way that feels unnatural, due to holding the hand palm up while picking.

    Watching Sagmeister pick shows me a way I can utilize what I want about Benson picking (the ability to use rest strokes and to switch strings on an upstroke without getting caught on the strings) without having to twist my arm around in a way that hurts my elbow.

  16. #965

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philco
    Saw this on another thread and just had to post it. This is NOT me and at the risk of being guilty of "fame by association" I will venture to say that this players Benson picking is where I have arrived. That is to say this is almost exactly how I'm holding my pick and using my finger movement. This gentleman has put everything I have discovered about position of wrist blah blah ad nausea......anyway this is pretty much it in a nutshell. Pick flexing, holding pick in upper right corner, pick hanging out, ability to mute with side of hand and also hybrid pick with fingers.
    Not saying it looks like GB but this is a very viable way to use a pick. Note the freedom and relaxed attitude.
    Yeah, Phil, that guy's got it going on. As you say, free and relaxed. And moving! I think I've seen a video of him before---the hair looks familiar! I'll check out his site....

  17. #966

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Hey Groyniad! Any chance of another of your great video demos? I'm intrigued by this.
    no vid - thanks for the encouragement though (and i love that tune you were singing so nicely - if i had you)

    the felt thing is really something

    you need the right thickness so it sticks in place but doesn't push the strings up

    and you can determine how much muting happens by how wide the strip is - really quite precisely

    if you use e.g. a cm. then the whole guitar will sound like the soft peddle is depressed

    if you use 1/3 of a cm. then it will sound great

    if you use nothing it sounds like the loud peddle is depressed

    i was put off a bit to start with because my strip was too wide - but i've found the right width now and my andersen and campellone are working very well indeed - give it a try. if you find black felt you will hardly even see it.

  18. #967

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    I'd love to see someone post a video and explain what the deal is with the felt. i.e why you use it and what advantage it's supposed to provide? I'm not having any issues nor feel the need to dampen anything. I don't get it.

  19. #968

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlainJazz
    I'd love to see someone post a video and explain what the deal is with the felt. i.e why you use it and what advantage it's supposed to provide? I'm not having any issues nor feel the need to dampen anything. I don't get it.
    okay - i'll do one in the next couple of days

    AlainJazz i seem to remember you have both high-end acoustic archtops and sadowsky guitars?

    well - the sadowsky guitars will not need any overtone damping - but the high end super-responsive archtops might.

    if i play a line starting at the bottom of the neck on the low e string and climbing up the neck to high notes on the top e string then by the time i'm half way through i've got all sorts of ringing overtone sounding stuff going on with the lower strings. its a kind of sonic backdrop of harmonic chaos that you might well find wearing after a while. the other day it struck me forcefully how like playing a piano with the loud peddle depressed it is.

    i saw a short vid with bill frisel playing andersen's new double top laminate in which he pointed out this incidental string sounding and said it shows how sensitive and alive steve's guitars are and that he finds it inspiring. he certainly was not playing anything like bebop on the thing.

    i've only really noticed this incidental string noise since playing andersen guitars - its not so much of an issue with the campellone. so far i find i am much happier now that 50 percent of it has been eradicated by a thin strip of felt under the strings by the nut. certainly the guitar amplifies better. (you can dampen more or less to taste)

    i'm sure that some players would think it insane to dampen an instrument like an andersen - you've spent a fortune trying to get the most sensitive responsive archtop you can find and then you try to stop it ringing!! but i hardly ever strum a chord and let it ring out (never in fact - except maybe at the very end of a tune). and the open strings still ring out - just with less sustain and more focus.

  20. #969

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    Hmm interesting. Thanks Groyniad. Indeed I've been playing the Sadowsky almost exclusively for months now. Maybe that's why I don't hear it.

  21. #970

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    Yeah, my Painter laminate is basically the exact same specs as the Sadowsky Jim Hall - on my axe everything is a dull thud. The Ibanez GB10's sound very 'thuddy' to me as well. Most of the time I get away with not needing a muting device - unless my fingers are sticky, or if I put on a new set of Thomastik flats. After a week, the strings lose their zing - less overtones to worry about.

    One other thing, if you have a lot of bottom end with your eq - that can set off feedback from the bass strings using the Benson tech. You'll notice George's sound is very much in the mids.

    Have the eq you want of course, just pointing out something I've observed for myself.

  22. #971

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3625
    Yeah, my Painter laminate is basically the exact same specs as the Sadowsky Jim Hall - on my axe everything is a dull thud. The Ibanez GB10's sound very 'thuddy' to me as well. Most of the time I get away with not needing a muting device - unless my fingers are sticky, or if I put on a new set of Thomastik flats. After a week, the strings lose their zing - less overtones to worry about.

    One other thing, if you have a lot of bottom end with your eq - that can set off feedback from the bass strings using the Benson tech. You'll notice George's sound is very much in the mids.

    Have the eq you want of course, just pointing out something I've observed for myself.

    that's a really good point about eq. one of the big problems with a lot of 175 type guitars is that you need to roll down the tone control - that gives you the smooth-tone you want - but you lose definition - this means that to be audible you have to turn up - and that means you get more feedback. (i did not find this to be the case with the sadowsky 16'' guitar)

  23. #972

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    just for the record - after a few days with the felt under the strings its been very enjoyable to remove it and go back to the overtone-rich original sound. the felt might be very useful for certain gigs and recording - but not as a permanent modification. still - easy to remove and replace - and almost invisible too. also its very adjustable - so you can get as much or as little damping as you like.

  24. #973

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    just for the record - after a few days with the felt under the strings its been very enjoyable to remove it and go back to the overtone-rich original sound. the felt might be very useful for certain gigs and recording - but not as a permanent modification. still - easy to remove and replace - and almost invisible too. also its very adjustable - so you can get as much or as little damping as you like.
    How did you keep the felt from moving (-bunching up)? That was what put me off of it. I use two scrunchies, which makes playing in F something of a challenge but otherwise it's a cheap, effective dampener, and easily removed. Unlike a strip of felt under the string, the scrunchies DO draw attention to themselves. I think this is why black is the most commonly used color. It tends to disappear from one's awareness. I lost my black one and am now using two others that came in the same set: white and aquamarine. This being South Florida, those are seen as Miami Dolphin (-football team) colors...

  25. #974

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philco
    Saw this on another thread and just had to post it. This is NOT me and at the risk of being guilty of "fame by association" I will venture to say that this players Benson picking is where I have arrived. That is to say this is almost exactly how I'm holding my pick and using my finger movement. This gentleman has put everything I have discovered about position of wrist blah blah ad nausea......anyway this is pretty much it in a nutshell. Pick flexing, holding pick in upper right corner, pick hanging out, ability to mute with side of hand and also hybrid pick with fingers.
    Not saying it looks like GB but this is a very viable way to use a pick. Note the freedom and relaxed attitude.
    Been out of town for a couple of weeks and didn't see this. First off, this guy is crushing it. I do think the use of hybrid picking for the blues double stops is kind of weird though

    Are you bending your thumb the way he does? I'd think the tech would be hard to control without the locked thumb.

    I'm also really interested in the angle. I feel like the power in the tech for me comes from the bend in the wrist, and the arm cutting down through the string with all the force of the shoulder, elbow, etc. I'm not sure I could control it with an almost standard hand position like he's got. Kind of reminds me of Shawn Lane's picking hand.

    Would love to see you demo it. The one issue with that vid is that he's playing at a pretty relaxed tempo, and for me the big benefit of the Benson tech was when I got up closer to 300 bpm and could maintain control.

  26. #975
    I won't have any time to work on a vid. I'm relocating the UK for 6 months next year and have a staggering amount of work to get through before I go.
    My hand and thumb shape are totally different to the guy in the video I posted. His thumb looks like it may have been damaged at some point. He doesn't seem to be locking it the same way as GB does but the angle of the pick and the thumb pad behind the index are classic Benson. My thumb was badly set after a bike accident and has a lump at the base which prevents a real turn back. My other thumb is normal and will bend back like Bensons. Tough luck!

    Perhaps we all just adapt the tech to what will suit our had shape and it's just going to look different to everyone else's.
    I'm not sure I agree that the power comes from the wrist.
    I mean……the wrist is free and relaxed for sure. But for me the main motion is not the wrist going up and down.
    It's a combination of the wrist going back and forth AND the thumb and index moving and "pointing"……which is an even smaller movement than the big movement of the wrist.

    Look at the tiny movement that guy is using. It comes down to the little flex of the pick and thumb. Now you need your pick to flex to make this work. His pick flex is a hugh part of his tech….as with Benson as with Perry Hughes.

    When I said to myself….ok my pick has to flex as much as GB and PH…….at that moment I had to deconstruct my tech again and look at….how much blade is protruding…..how much sideways blade is protruding……how much is the pick flexing.
    Well I just could not get the pick moving and flexing like GB and PH…..and that guy in the Video.
    So I changed to a thin pick and this really helped me a lot.
    This allowed me to cheat (because of my lumpy thumb no back bend) and immediately gave me the flex I wanted.
    I'm very happy now and when I get time to play (not often) I don't really think about it any more and just play.
    It's actually a very exciting time for me as I'm playing better than I ever have. It seems things have fallen into place at last. I'm getting the best sound and have the most control.
    Here is a pic that shows the lump at the base of my thumb and also a fairly current shot of my hand position…..although I'm usually right on the front pick up. This is a Fender Medium not a thin. So this is pre pick change.
    I also noticed that I can either arch my wrist over the bridge….more like a Gypsy Jazz player…or I can flatten out and actually mute with the big pad of the thumb muscle thus avoiding the ringing string thing.
    I really think that this is a very personal journey or tech or whatever you want to call it. Totally determined by an individuals physiology.
    Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo-clj-nice-light-jpg
    Last edited by Philco; 12-19-2014 at 08:28 PM.