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Yeah, the middle finger is clutch for me. I go back and forth on it, because it is a slightly different grip. The pick usually ends up sliding back more onto the pad of my thumb, and less on the tip where it is when I'm doing single-note stuff.
Originally Posted by AlainJazz
But the sound is so much better, and I never have to worry about dropping it.
I got the arm thing from that Tuck Andress article and really dig it. I try to use my whole arm: shoulder, elbow joint, and loose wrist. Always chasing the groove!
I'm still a newbie with it and, as you can see in the vid, my strumming is not 100% reliable. But it's getting there.
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11-02-2014 10:52 AM
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Long thread...
I found this video and the really good part is right in the beginning where he shows how to prepare the hand.
at 2.28 he talks about the fulcrum point.Last edited by lumena; 11-06-2014 at 08:25 AM.
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Yeah, that's Mark Cally, aka setemupjoe. He contributes to this thread and that video has already been posted on this thread. That said, I don't mind seeing it here again. It's worth repeating! ;o) Originally Posted by lumena
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A question for the thread:
Whenever I've tried Benson picking, I've found that I run into a fair few problems compared to normal picking.
First, whenever I try the hand position for Benson picking, it really stresses my wrist and elbow, and my joints are honestly pretty bad already. In setemupjoe's video, he says about putting the hand into a natural position, with the palm up. I can't do that without straining my elbow - I end up with my hand on its edge, with my thumb slightly away from vertical away from me, and then my elbow locks up.
Second, I've found that holding the picking in the Benson style between the pads of the finger and the thumb I am far more tense than when I do it the 'traditional way'.
The two above reasons mean that I tend towards a more traditional picking style (I'm giving gypsy picking a go, for example), but in that case, I find that the pick gets caught on the string a lot more, and other various issues.
So, am I doing it wrong, and how, or is my physiology just not set up properly to utilize Benson picking?
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Pretty much impossible to know without a video. You may have some kind of physiological issue that makes it not work for you, and you also might just not be doing it the right way. Post a clip. Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun
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At the risk of beating a dead picking horse, there's simply no need to pick like Benson in order to achieve what he plays (or anything else for that matter). As I've stated before, I happen to find that picking approach detrimental to my overall playing and to my right-hand versatility, but hey.. different strokes for different folks ;-). Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun
My good friend Wolf Marshall has two young private students at UCLA. Although they are just 15 and 20 years old, they can pick just as fast and effortless using traditional picking, even playing double-timed Benson solos note-for-note. GB's primary secret lies in the left hand, not the right. It's all based on his mentor, the great Wes Montgomery, which is why guys like GB and Henry Johnson can play almost as fast using the right hand thumb in successive downstrokes as they can using a pick. Both have stated this in the past, so this is really nothing new.
Of course, it's much easier to believe that how you hold a pick is the "magic pill" in this scenario. The reality is that there is a far greater challenge when you consider left-hand shifts and articulation in addition to core language, since it takes more work but is well worth it in the long run.
Finally, I'm sure most of you are aware of the late Billy Rogers, and here are a couple of snapshots of BR in action on stage:
Note the conventional right-hand position, and as a reminder of what can be achieved in terms of speed and effortless picking, click here to check out a well-known recording of him blowing it out over Rhythm Changes. For anyone who truly thinks that you have to pick like GB to sound like him or play as fast, I encourage you to think again.
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Fair enough, but it is also fair to point out that a few of the people you mentioned----Wes, George, and Henry---could not do what they became famous for with a conventional approach to picking. Originally Posted by JazzOnSix
The people who have contributed the most to this thread have one thing in common: they started out picking in the conventional way but ran into roadblocks, just like your friend Henry did. The thinking is: "Hey, here is a guy (-GB) who had trouble with fast tempos and found a way so that he could play play fast and retain a great rhythmic feel. Maybe that way can work for me too!"
I never wanted to sound like George Benson. I like and respect him, but I just want a more reliable right hand. What I've learned here (-and in related areas, such as through the JC Stylles tutorial) has helped me more than anything else.
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Mark, I've been coaching players for over 40 years, and when it comes to picking problems it can almost always be solved by the left hand. There's just too much evidence to the contrary to suggest that it's only a right-hand issue, which both GB and HJ have also pointed out. And, of course, Wes didn't even use a pick. My suspicion is that the majority of players seeking the answer in the right-hand haven't explored the fretting hand sufficiently, which was the case for me at one point. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
In other words, I had the exact same problem that you describe until I saw HJ playing lightning quick on my brother's classical guitar, using his right-hand thumb. That's when it dawned on me, and I made more progress in a few weeks on the speed front than I had in 20 years. Just sharing what worked for me to solve the dilemma, but I'm certainly not alone and if you or anyone else hasn't given ample time to the left hand a la Wes and his disciples, then you'll never be able to relate to what I'm saying. For me and all of the players I've worked with over the years, the "roadblock" lies in the left hand, not the right. It just took me a long time to realize it. Better late than never ;-).
I'm not here to discourage anyone from experimenting, and I've already "been there done that" with Benson picking. I just want to encourage fellow players to look beyond what many consider unnecessary in order to achieve technical success. All for now..
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It's worth noting that I'm a left handed player who plays right handed, which might explain some of my issues.
Also, I know that there are plenty of players that can play perfectly quickly and cleanly with normal technique- I've been listening to a lot of the Rosenberg trio lately and looking at Gypsy picking.
I'm mostly interested in Benson picking because I don't like the pick snagging on the strings, which is something I've had problems with with every other style of picking I've tried short of fingerstyle.
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There is a lot of truth to what Henry is saying. I've been using the benson grip for a while now and it has helped a lot in playing more relaxed at fast tempos. I also like the tone better than with the traditional grip. BUT the real speed and effortless playing started to kick in when I concentrated on my left hand. Primarily this was about playing long lines in a horizontal fashion up and down the neck rather than vertical. This was the key for me. I now believe I could get the same speed and accuracy using a traditional grip. I am however sticking to the benson grip for now because of the tone and because I don't want to switch my technique again just yet. Originally Posted by JazzOnSix
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Perhaps you could do another thread on some basic exercises to get the left hand up to snuff to improve picking speed, then? I'm really interested, and still pretty basic at guitar, so I'm curious. Originally Posted by JazzOnSix
Much thanks.
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As Mr. Rhodes said long ago in this thread, "Whatever works.." and I totally agree. Clearly your biggest breakthrough came via the left hand (like myself), and what you're describing in horizontal vs vertical is the very essence of playing like Wes. Slurring is also a huge part of legato, horn-like phrasing that serves a dual purpose in making life easy for the right hand, regardless of how you hold a pick or even whether you use one at all. Originally Posted by AlainJazz
For me, GB picking compromises both my tone and versatility, so there had to be a compelling reason to justify the 7-8 months of hard work that Henry claims is necessary to make the transition. Since I saw such amazing progress in more like 7-8 days by adjusting the left-hand approach and philosophy, it was an ideal speed solution because I didn't have to give up two of my strengths as a player. As a matter of fact, I was so inspired by the accelerated growth that I launched a pair of educational series documenting my work, Minor Connections and Thumbprints. I'll reveal some of it in future threads and posts here at JGO.
Shadow, the best "exercises" will always be those based on genuine language, just as it was for Wes, Benson, Pass and so many other iconic jazz guitar legends. Those guys never practiced scales, modes and arpeggios as a means to an end. That being said, there really does need to be serious discussion devoted to the language side of the equation, as opposed to how one holds a pick. Who really cares how fast you can play if you have nothing significant to say? ;-) Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun
Sure thing, Jeff. Rogers was a terrific player who certainly deserves to be remembered, and a perfect example of a technical virtuoso who played the same language as GB but with conventional picking. Again it comes down to solid language content, phrasing, and the way that Billy used his fretting hand. Originally Posted by jbyork
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threads a bit threadbare perhaps but this seemed worth posting:
after a very long time of playing from the wrist - that is, of using my wrist to make the picking movement
i saw a clip of some guy playing fluidly and, at times, very brightly - this one:
(from 2:15)
and it was clear that he was playing more from the elbow than from the wrist (which is kept fixed-ish).
i tried it (with all other aspects of the magic method kept as constant as poss.) and very quickly the heavens opened and i was at last allowed into the promised land of fluid fast consistent articulated and relaxing phrasing that has been cruelly kept from me for so long.
well - i'm getting a little carried away there - but there is no doubt that changing the bit of me i was using to play with did produce a very marked improvement. perhaps that should not be too surprising.
isn't it crazy that you need to think about whether you play with your fingers/wrist/elbow/shoulder?
chuck andres is very good on this - and he recommends you start by using the biggest joints/muscles and only after you've got those so they can play, do you start to use the smaller ones. he makes quite a big deal about this - you have to teach your shoulder to play, then your elbow, then your wrist, then (perhaps) your fingers (then maybe a crazy jazzy mix of all of them).
my present point is just - i went from using my wrist to using my elbow and it has helped a very great deal.
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That's Jack Zucker, a longtime member of this Forum. Originally Posted by Groyniad
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Well, Joe played scales a lot as a kid. He said that in interviews. And he recommends the chord-arpeggio-scale "trinity" (or is it "trilogy"?) in at least one of his books. Originally Posted by JazzOnSix
But I agree that Joe didn't mean for that to be a main, daily exercise for an advanced player. But I think there are at least two really good exercises that help technique and are also useful for playing.
One was demonstrated by Jaco in a video posted hereabouts yesterday: play up one arpeggio and down the next. (In G, say: GM7, A-, B-, CM7, D7, E-, F#m7b5, GM7 and then go back.) That's really good for learning the neck and a lot of horn players will put bits of that exercise in their solos. Jaco called it "the real deal" and Jaco was the real deal himself, so I take his recommendation seriously.
Two is what Carol Kaye calls "stacked triads" or "triad stacks." For G7 it would be the G triad (GBD) the Bmb5 triad (BDF), the D triad (DFA), and so on. Horn players use that a lot to start solos, starting however far back they need to in order to land on a certain note on the 'one' following a break. Such lines generate tremendous momentum. If you start to practice them, you will realize you've heard them all your life. Triads really are useful in playing jazz! ;o)
Such patterns are useful because they are flexible---you can double time them, slow them down, back-cycle them, whatever. They're not quite licks but they have such a momentum about them, they allow lines to sound good and coherent even when they temporarily clash with the harmony. (Carol Kaye says Charlie often played, say, a Bmin triad where the diminished (Bmb5) was called for as a way to ease out of a key and then ease back in when he wanted to. Triads are forces of nature! And there are lots of ways to vary them which, again, aren't exactly licks patterns. (Approaching from a note below, or encircling, whatever. I think Charlie Parker thought more in terms of chords than scales.)
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interesting stuff - i've never been a speed-guy - and i'm finding there's plenty of fluidity in the phrasing i'm generating now i'm using the elbow and fixing the wrist a bit more. but i'm very open-minded about where this goes. what do you think of chuck andres line on this - namely - start with the big joints/muscles and progress to the smaller ones once they have developed refinement (he says - you need a musical elbow and shoulder if your wrist and fingers are going to have the base they need to work properly) Originally Posted by Richb
as for sympathetic string vibration - well that's a doozy is it not?
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to practice right hand technique you have to (one good approach is to) invent/discover long lines or repeating harmonic patterns, then play them so often you can focus almost entirely on making your right hand relax and swing
of course you need the lines to practice the picking (so the question of whether left or right hand is the most important is a bit confused). real musical lines - actual fragments of the music - often move around in too many cool ways to allow you to focus so much on relaxing your right hand. to play them nicely you already have to have acquired the relaxed and swinging right hand. to acquire it you need to simplify the music a bit - abstract from it repeating harmonic ideas (scalar and triadic) - then try, by repetition, to get them to dance out of the guitar as if by themselves (this could involve modifying left hand fingerings or focusing on right hand technique).
for a long time now i've been trying to pick every single note of the 'lines' i'm praciticing - so i can play (or 'tongue' as a horn player might say) everything fluidly and without hiccups and slips as i move around.
the idea is certainly not to actually play super-articulated banks of eighths and sixteenths. the idea is to be able to control the phrasing - not to have to use guitaristic 'slurring' techniques in the left hand to make it possible to play bright phrases and at bright tempos.
the reason the benson technique is so important is that it allows you to hope as a guitarist that you will be able to play with something like the freedom of horn players and piano players. for that you need both great fingering and great right hand technique (and of course some good actual ideas).
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of course you're right - richb - about practicing legato stuff - i do that sort of automatically. though - as i've been saying - at the moment i'm trying to articulate everything - primarily to improve the whole right hand dimension of things.
and of course there are big issues with muting.
i would bet that every technique has its characteristic strengths and its characteristic weaknesses.
i'm certainly convinced that the strengths of the benson technique make a powerful case for it, even bearing in mind what its problems are.
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I think it was Thoreau who said, "You never gain something but that you lose something." Originally Posted by Groyniad
For many, the gains here outweigh the losses.
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12-06-2014, 07:48 AM #946destinytot Guest
The name is unhelpful, but the technique isn't. Got a fine archtop guitar, a great amp (that I know how to use) - and a Fender Thin in my paw...
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater
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12-06-2014, 08:52 AM #947dortmundjazzguitar Guestyea, kinda reminds me of that dude from australia. oh, wait... Originally Posted by Richb
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Re: the whole muting thing. I just did a gig and decided to use a velcro band around the first fret. It was about 1cm wide and worked very well. The weather was humid - as a consequence my fingers were a bit sticky, therefore more potential for open string noise. It was loosely placed around the first fret, and I could still play notes there - even open strings but obviously they sounded muted.
I could have done it without the velcro band, but this way I didn't have to think about muting and could just focus on playing.
It's been nearly a year now since I switched, and I'm still figuring out the finer details of how to do it - but IMO, if you play bop-based music on an archtop with flats (pick only), the Benson tech is the way to go. Pro's outweigh the Cons for me big time. In terms of bio-mechanics it's a much more efficient technique than traditional grip for single line playing. I'll agree with Tuck on that one. I also greatly prefer it for pick comping as well.
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Is that like a scrunchy (or hair-tie)? Originally Posted by 3625
Attachment 16317
I've used those. I've seen other players use them two. They're 2 for a dollar (or thereabrouts; may come in groups of three.)
Herb Ellis----who didn't Benson pick---always played with a string dampener. I think George Van Eps came up with it. (I'm not sure about that; Monk would know.)
Attachment 16318
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Hey Mark, wasn't a scrunchy - I've seen people use those on youtube, but they look a bit over the top for me - in terms of performing in public. I'm using a velcro band that originally came with my laptop power cable as a tie bundle: Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Doesn't look too noticeable, especially since my guitar's fretboard is ebony and doesn't have any inlay. To mute properly, it works best in the middle of the first fret - but if I need better access to first fret notes, I find it naturally slides back to just in front of the nut when I play. Then I just gently put it back in the middle position mid-song. I didn't have to give it any serious attention while playing, which is obviously a good thing.
As an aside - Marty Friedman has arrived at his own unique solution for this problem. If I end up doing a gig in Sydney, I'll see if I can get Rich to help me out
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