Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[ecj]

Mark, don't feel bad at all about derailing. You've added a ton to the thread.

I did read about Henry Johnson touring with Joe Wilson, and actually got to see him perform a few songs with vocals at a gig. Interesting that he's into Seth Riggs. I've been following the Singing Success program, so I'm kind of cued into the whole speech level singing thing that Seth Riggs developed through Brett Manning. Really helped me clean up my vocal technique and overcome a lot of hurdles.

I'll have to overcome my fear of interacting with a player of that level and just hit him up. I'm kind of intimidated, I have to admit.

Incidentally, after reading the Tuck Andress article this comment thread that Henry Johnson participated in was the first thing that I found that really helped me start to understand some of what was going on with the "Benson technique":

Picking Technique - THE JAZZ NETWORK WORLDWIDE "A GREAT PLACE TO HANG"

Henry starts commenting about halfway down. The thread eventually gets derailed (as they always seem to) into some kind of weird argument about what jazz is, but the first couple pages has some good food for thought.

Anyway, thanks for sharing, Mark! I'll definitely have to check out the new issues. I let my JJG subscription lapse a while ago and will have to get back on it.

[destinytot]

Incidentally, after reading the Tuck Andress article this comment thread that Henry Johnson participated in was the first thing that I found that really helped me start to understand some of what was going on with the "Benson technique":

Picking Technique - THE JAZZ NETWORK WORLDWIDE "A GREAT PLACE TO HANG"

Henry starts commenting about halfway down.

Thank you very much for posting this link to the thread in which Henry Johnson participated, ecj!

[MarkRhodes]

Yes, thanks for that link to the thread (on another forum) where Henry talks about learning from George. I think the following paragraphs are especially relevant to our discussion here:


>>>>GB saw me [Henry Johnson] having problems and had pity on me. On the break, I asked him how he dealt with the tempo problems since he had also worked with same band leader when he was 17. That evening we spent together changed my musical life forever. He sat down with me and showed me his picking technique and how to practice it. It took me 3 or 4 months to transition to where it was second nature and I no longer had to think about it. After that, I never had another problem playing tempos, or any technical difficulties playing anything on the guitar ever again.

Over the years, every time we'd get together, I'd find out there were other subtle levels of George's technique; each one he'd show me when he felt I was ready for it. And to this day, he is always adding other levels to it so it keeps evolving. Many years later, I find out that I am one of only four people in the US that George has personally taught his picking technique to. Of course I was freaked! Anyway guys, I just want to clarify that GB's picking technique is not based on sweeping, alternate picking, using the forearm, or any of that stuff. And yes, GB can mute if he wants to, but that's just not a sound he likes so you wont hear him doing it.

[Paragraph skipped]

....Another thing: GB does not pick every note. It may sound that way because his technique is dead-on accurate and the notes are so clean, but if you slow his solos down, you can hear many slurs, hammer-ons, and pull-offs. Well guys, I hope that sheds some light on GB's picking technique. Till next time.

Henry<<<<<

Very insightful!

[MarkRhodes]

I want to draw special focus to one part of Henry's post (on another forum, posted above here)

>>>> That evening we spent together changed my musical life forever. He sat down with me and showed me his picking technique and how to practice it. It took me 3 or 4 months to transition to where it was second nature and I no longer had to think about it. After that, I never had another problem playing tempos, or any technical difficulties playing anything on the guitar ever again.<<<<<

1) George showed him his technique and how to practice it. This sounds very specific, and further, something Henry wasn't already doing. (And Henry already had a gig with Jack McDuff---he was a professional player.)
2) It took 3 or 4 months for Henry to make this technique 'second nature.' That's quite specific too. It was a big change that took a long time for a working pro to get down.

So why in the name of God won't Henry give us more details? It changed his life. He said that. It's a huge deal. So, dude, share! Please?!?! ;o)

[Nabil B]

What you're seeing is an illusion because you can't see the angle that's invisible. What's going on underneath is GB's hand is actually anchored and not floating, and it is that anchoring which allows him to mute the strings. His hand does not rest on the bridge, he picks fairly close to the neck pickup and lightly touching the strings keeps them quiet.

That is interesting for me, as I am always concentrating on keeping my hand floating. I'll try to get it "brushing" on the strings now !

Other than that, very insightful posts by Henry Johnson ! I could read pages and pages of him sharing his wisdom. And once again, we get reminded of the single most important thing to remember : transcribe, transcribe, transcribe !

[Joe Widner]

Here's a link to a YouTube video with a great shot of Henry Johnson's right hand. It doesn't look anchored to me unless to the pickguard by his fingers.

He's playing with Kenny Burrell and Rory Hoffman. The good shots of Henry's right hand are at 9:15.

[MarkRhodes]

That is interesting for me, as I am always concentrating on keeping my hand floating. I'll try to get it "brushing" on the strings now !

Other than that, very insightful posts by Henry Johnson ! I could read pages and pages of him sharing his wisdom. And once again, we get reminded of the single most important thing to remember : transcribe, transcribe, transcribe !

I enjoyed all that too, though when he talks about George "anchoring" but it seems to mean brushing his hand against the strings, well, that is not what is normally meant by "anchoring," is it?

Touching the pickguard with the pinky is not "anchoring" if the pinky easily moves. To "anchor" is not simply to touch but to be fixed in place. Right?

Not that I want to argue with Henry!

[Patrick2]

I enjoyed all that too, though when he talks about George "anchoring" but it seems to mean brushing his hand against the strings, well, that is not what is normally meant by "anchoring," is it?

Touching the pickguard with the pinky is not "anchoring" if the pinky easily moves. To "anchor" is not simply to touch but to be fixed in place. Right?

Not that I want to argue with Henry!

I think there are two things here causing your questioning. The first is the incorrect usage of the word anchoring. The second is you that you are taking the word too literally. I believe the term achoring means *point of reference*. That could be brushing the strings with the heel of your picking hand . . . or slightly touching the pick guard to establish that point of reference . . or even resting yourwrist on the bridge saddle. When you think of it, if you really do anchor your picking hand . . how would you actually be able to pick other than to do so exclusively with your fingers?

[MarkRhodes]

[QUOTE=Patrick2;459646] The first is the incorrect usage of the word anchoring. The second is you that you are taking the word too literally. I believe the term achoring means *point of reference*. /QUOTE]

I think 'anchoring' and 'point of reference' are distinct concepts, not two names for the same one.

[Patrick2]

[QUOTE=MarkRhodes;459666]

The first is the incorrect usage of the word anchoring. The second is you that you are taking the word too literally. I believe the term achoring means *point of reference*. /QUOTE]

I think 'anchoring' and 'point of reference' are distinct concepts, not two names for the same one.

How then does one use the hand to pick? If the hand is anchored, it stationary . . immobile. I'm more inclined to believe that the term anchored, as applied to the picking hand, is being used very loosely. You said as much in your reply to Professor Jones.

Would you be able to post a video example of someone who is truly anchoring their picking hand? Please don't misinterpret that as a challenge to your opinion. I'd be really curious to see how someone could actually anchor their picking hand. The closest I can see it being, would be where a player rests the heel/pad of their hand on the bridge saddle for purposes of string muting. I do that sometimes. But, more often than not I rely upon my left hand technique for string muting.

[3625]

This is my take on it - the right pinky is curled and rests on the pickguard, thereby supporting the weight of the hand/arm. But because the pinky is curled, it can roll a little bit according to what strings you're playing. So the 'anchor' is supporting the hand's weight, however it's not fixed and rigid.

Just like a ball rolling on a flat surface - but tiny little rolls, not overt big ones.

[MarkRhodes]

This is my take on it - the right pinky is curled and rests on the pickguard, thereby supporting the weight of the hand/arm. But because the pinky is curled, it can roll a little bit according to what strings you're playing. So the 'anchor' is supporting the hand's weight, however it's not fixed and rigid.

Just like a ball rolling on a flat surface - but tiny little rolls, not overt big ones.

Right, that's how it seems to me. There's no inhibition if you want to move your hand.

When I was a kid and rested the heel of my palm on the bridge, my hand didn't slide along the bridge.

I think the term 'pinky anchor' came into use with guys who didn't want a conventional anchor on the guitar----there is a whole 'anchoring is wrong' school---but needed a sense of where their floating hand was in relation to the strings. They weren't putting weight on the pinky so much as using as a way of knowing where they were in relation to the strings.

The Benson thing with the side of the pinky is a little different. There's more weight on it, I think, but at the same time, it moves (or slides) as the hand moves. It's not fixed.

[Philco]

Here's a link to a YouTube video with a great shot of Henry Johnson's right hand. It doesn't look anchored to me unless to the pickguard by his fingers.

He's playing with Kenny Burrell and Rory Hoffman. The good shots of Henry's right hand are at 9:15.

Once again showing the variations on the technique.
Very little angle on the pick.
Not much downward protrusion of pick.
Plenty of sideway protrusion.

Everyone has a slightly different take on it.

Re The anchor thing. From my observations of Perry Hughes, GB and now Peter Farrell there is something slightly different going on.
They seem to really anchor the pinky and third. It only slides when it has to.
If you anchor like that then you need to move your thumb as well as your wrist. This gives you that "pointing" at the string and playing it "look".
I'm not talking about scrunching up your thumb……remember how you used to do that Mark?
Darn hard to explain.
The whole thumb moves from its base.
You can actually play tremolo by JUST using your thumb. It's a tiny movement….smaller than a wrist movement.

So what you then have ……because the pinky is planted….is the HAND (including the thumb) moving more than the wrist. Although the wrist still moves a little.
This is an even smaller movement than a wrist movement.

Go back and check the Perry Hughes and the Peter Farrell clips and JUST watch the thumb.
Then watch GB's thumb. It's not stiff….it moves…….it is a part of the pick stroke.

Rather than the wrist moving the hand simply stretches over to the bass strings when it has to.

I've probably opened a can of worms but it's just a current theory.

It all comes back to this fluid movement thing. Nothing is stiff. Not your hand, not your wrist, not your arm not your pick……and NOT your thumb.
Everything contributes to the smallest possible movement.

Please don't go changing your hard earned technique just because of my current opinion.
Have a look at those videos…….what do you make of the thumb movement?

IMO the thumb movement is related to the anchor and the "pointing" of the pick.

[ecj]

Philco, I think the looseness is the key. The whole point if the tech for me is that I don't have to immobilize anything.

[Nabil B]

Here's what is anchoring for me :

You can clearly see that John has his pinky tuked under the bridge pickup, and it stays there all the time.

As for the GB technique, I tried anchoring (pinky finger tip "stuck" on the pickguard) and not anchoring (pinky and ring curled in, sliding up and down the pickguard) and the latter is what works the best for me. It seems to me that it's how GB does it, from what I've seen. When I say "sliding up and down the pickguard", these are only very small movements. Just enough so the hand can comfortably pick any string you want.

[destinytot]

the right pinky is curled and rests on the pickguard

I think so, too - the (out)side edge.

The whole thumb moves from its base.
You can actually play tremolo by JUST using your thumb. It's a tiny movement….smaller than a wrist movement.

So what you then have ……because the pinky is planted….is the HAND (including the thumb) moving more than the wrist. Although the wrist still moves a little.
This is an even smaller movement than a wrist movement.

This rings true - I'm going to explore it. Thanks!

[MarkRhodes]

So what you then have ……because the pinky is planted….is the HAND (including the thumb) moving more than the wrist. Although the wrist still moves a little.
This is an even smaller movement than a wrist movement.

I'm doing something a little different now than I was during my month of coaching, but when I was playing 16th notes at 180, my wrist barely moved. My thumb did move. It was less than the "shake" JC Stylles talked about because it wasn't the whole hand, just the thumb and index. Very slight movement.

Now, I'm playing much slower and working on tunes and good jazz lines. I'm not worried about speed. Also, the pick has gravitated to a different position. I seem to want more of the pick to protrude on the underside of the thumb. I often look down and realize that is where it is. I am not committed to keeping it there.

I do think that several elements work together and that how you plant the pinky will shape the grip and vice versa.

[MarkRhodes]

Just checking in. I have been shifting my pick around a bit so that ONLY the pick touches the string. I had developed a bad habit of holding the pick too close to the tip and making contact with my fingers (sometimes). The result is a better tone and more consistency.

[3625]

I've commented before that the new Fender shell mediums appear to be made out of a different grade of celluloid as compared to older ones - the new ones are lighter in colour.

New incontrovertible evidence has now surfaced, disproving my theory that only the newer fender shell mediums are light in colour - seems like Fender have switched back & forth between light and dark brown over the years. See GB's pick 5th down from the far left column:

[MarkRhodes]

New incontrovertible evidence has now surfaced, disproving my theory that only the newer fender shell mediums are light in colour - seems like Fender have switched back & forth between light and dark brown over the years. See GB's pick 5th down from the far left column:

I think they have switched some but it is possible for a single such pick to look lighter or darker depending on the background it is seen against and the angle of light cast upon it. (A Fender Medium lying atop a black amp looks darker than the same pick held up to the light.)

I wonder what thickness has to do with it. If you sample a batch of them---say, in a display case in a music store---you can tell by feel that some are a bit thicker than others.

[3625]

Hey Mark, I can tell the difference by comparing to the other picks in the photo - I also have both light and dark brown fender mediums here at home to use as a reference point. The latest batch of new ones seem to be light brown like the GB one in the poster, although the logo design has changed it's size and shape since then.

Did some research today - apparently D'Andrea made all fender picks up until sometime in the last decade. There are quite a few posts on other forums where long time users of fender picks noticed a drop in quality when the move happened.

I still find the new fenders to be good - I just think the D'A's are a shade better.

[MarkRhodes]

Hey Mark, I can tell the difference by comparing to the other picks in the photo - I also have both light and dark brown fender mediums here at home to use as a reference point. The latest batch of new ones seem to be light brown like the GB one in the poster, although the logo design has changed it's size and shape since then.

Did some research today - apparently D'Andrea made all fender picks up until sometime in the last decade. There are quite a few posts on other forums where long time users of fender picks noticed a drop in quality when the move happened.

I still find the new fenders to be good - I just think the D'A's are a shade better.

I believe you! Would you say the current D'Andrea .71 is equivalent to the old Fender Medium?

[3625]

I believe you! Would you say the current D'Andrea .71 is equivalent to the old Fender Medium?

I found a few of these dark brown fenders in a random pick bowl in a guitar shop, and while they're different to the new ones, I can't say how old they are - they're not of the same vintage as the ones in this poster based off the logo design. So I can't say for sure whether they were made by D'Andrea or not. I do think the D'Andrea brand picks I have are slightly better though.

[MarkRhodes]

I found a few of these dark brown fenders in a random pick bowl in a guitar shop, and while they're different to the new ones, I can't say how old they are - they're not of the same vintage as the ones in this poster based off the logo design. So I can't say for sure whether they were made by D'Andrea or not. I do think the D'Andrea brand picks I have are slightly better though.

They cost about the same as Fender Mediums, so next time I order from Amazon and need to round out an order to qualify for free shipping, I'll add a packet of those to my cart! ;o)

Has anyone actually played the Ibanez Benson picks? Amazon doesn't carry them. I've seen them elsewhere online but at a pretty stiff price. For now, I'm happy with the Fender Mediums....

[Jabberwocky]

PB324P075


PB55P075


http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/c...e/item/s10367/