-
Sometimes Barney Kessel seemed to be doing that too.
Originally Posted by Joe Widner
So glad to hear you're learning something and feeling good about your progress. That's great!
-
09-02-2014 02:14 PM
-
Mark, as you and I have discussed George can play almost as fast using his thumb as he does with a pick. I saw him doing that live in small clubs back in the 60's. One of his main students and disciples is my good friend Henry Johnson (Chicago), who along with Rodney Jones and a third player (I believe from Detroit) are the only credible authorities with regards to this picking style, because GB actually taught them. I did see somewhere in this long thread that Sheryl Bailey picked it up from Rodney, which I believe is true. However, when I did a JJG cover story interview with Sheryl back in 2003 we really didn't discuss the specifics of her pick technique. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Anyway, you'll recall that I mentioned HJ and I having a late night phone conversation with guitars in hand a few years ago, and he played Donna Lee at a blistering tempo, then shocked me by saying that he wasn't using a pick at all, but his thumb using down strokes a la Wes. He also told me at the time that GB modeled everything after Wes, including his pick work as well as his left hand philosophy.
A few months later we attended the NAMM show, and Henry introduced me to George for the first time at the Ibanez booth, which was great. During that trip, one night we had dinner at Wolf Marshall's place in Carlsbad (San Diego area). Later we were jamming and during a break HJ picked up my brother Paul's nylon-string classical guitar and did his Wes thumb thing playing some very quick jazz lines. It was an epiphany moment for me, because I realized right then that the left hand was driving the bus, which explained what I'd heard during our phone conversation.
When I got back home the first thing I did was to revisit my language vocabulary with the main purpose of making it work with the thumb. I made tremendous technical breakthroughs in just a couple of weeks by slurring and shifting more than I'd been doing before, pretty much following the Wes model except that I do use my 4th finger. When I re-introduced the pick it really didn't make a difference what approach I used, because everything was SO much easier, plus more legato-sounding similar to a horn player. That's why, with all due respect to those obsessed with GB picking, I don't see it as mandatory or a panacea for all things technical on guitar. I've used it over the years and still do now and then, but I just love the tone I get picking conventionally and have never been able to duplicate it with that approach. Different pick strokes for different folks, eh?
I'm sure you're aware that this fascination with Benson picking goes way back, but not nearly as far back as when GB was teaching it to HJ over 30 years ago. That's because Henry was having some uptempo issues while playing in Jack McDuff's band, ironically the same organist that had mentored George in the early 60's.
Whlle it's interesting to see almost 30 pages devoted to one small component of GB's work, to me the substance of what he does trumps all else, from his harmonic concepts to his utter mastery of blues to his funky syncopations and phrasing to his expanded use of octaves, double-stops, repetitions, etc. You don't need to pick just like him to integrate those concepts into your playing.
To me, technique is all about achieving balance, in two distinct ways. One is simply getting your left and right hands in sync. The other is far more important, which is hearing something truly meaningful and being able to execute it physically. If you have problems with either, then a change is in order, but not necessarily a picking change.
As far as speed in general is concerned, in my book there are too many guys who play fast yet say very little. My dad (jazz trombonist) had two quotes aimed right at guitarists with a penchant for stepping on the gas at every opportunity. One was "Speed hides a multitude of sin." The other was "If you can't walk away humming at least part of a solo, it wasn't worth remembering."
-
Really great post Jazzonsix, thanks for sharing your wisdom. Very interesting to me about the 'left hand driving the bus..' It seems to me that all the great players have great left hands including the guys who may not be known for their picking hands - Jim Hall, Scofield, Metheny to an extent - deadly players who seem to have the 'left hand driving the bus' so to speak.
Jazzonsix wrote:
To me, technique is all about achieving balance, in two distinct ways. One is simply getting your left and right hands in sync. The other is far more important, which is hearing something truly meaningful and being able to execute it physically. If you have problems with either, then a change is in order, but not necessarily a picking change.
That keeps things in perspective for me.
For me, my technique was so poor that I felt that I had to try something and I'm glad I'm taking a hack at Benson style picking. I do feel like my technique and tone is improving, my right hand has become more relaxed and with that I find my improvising seems to be taking a turn for the better as a natural consequence. I do look forward to being less preoccupied with technique once it rises to the point of being effortless for executing most things.
-
Great stuff, Mark Stefani! Thank you so much. It's great to have insight from Henry Johnson, who learned from George (and from Jack McDuff---did anyone ever interview Jack and ask him how he brought those two great guitarists along?) Originally Posted by JazzOnSix
Great line about how 'the left hand is driving the bus." Now, about "left hand philosophy"---you mentioned slurs and slides. What about groove? Wes could groove like mad and so could George. What I love most about them---and also about Stevie Ray Vaughan and Pat Martino and Charlie Christian---is their rhythmic drive. They roll like mighty rivers. If one is slurring and sliding, setting up fingerings so that one is playing mostly downstrokes (--even if Wes could play upstrokes with his thumb he played mainly downstrokes) where do the downstrokes fall in relation to the downbeat, and particularly beat one?
Does one, for example, pick the note on the and of four and slur / slide onto the one? (Not all the time, of course, but esp at the beginning of phrases? This could also mean not playing anything on one, then picking on the 'and' of one and slurring into beat two.)
Other than not using his pinky much, how did Wes finger? I know he tended to play along the neck (diagonally) but I don't know how that relates to fingering. (I know some country players who zip around the neck well too and a lot of their movements are based off major pentatonic patterns that shift on the third finger. They can play some incredibly fast, fluid lines with just two fingers! How did Wes mentally organize the fretboard?)
It's a bit off topic, but I know you love Herb Ellis, as do I. He didn't Benson pick but he moved around the neck really well. Was his fingering comparable to Wes's?
Thanks again for all the insight.
Boy, as the old saying has it, "The road goes on forever," huh?
-
just for the record - someone said that their acoustic volume had been compromised using the gb method. that seems all wrong to me. the most obvious effect of getting the technique right (finally) seemed to me to be a very substantial increase in acoustic volume - an increase in volume with an improvement in tone. i think its easy to focus much much too much on speed - then you start with tiny little picking movements that lower your volume drastically. tuck andres (and me) would advise against this. start with big bold movements - get the basics in place (which include more volume and tighter tone) and gradually refine the whole thing till you get the speed without giving up (too much of) the volume and tone.
-
Yes, I know you feel this way but I don't think it is an tenable position. The loudest possible volume comes with using the flat face of the pick on the string. If you're using an angle, you'll get less volume. (And still less volume with a still steeper angle.) Originally Posted by Groyniad
Gypsy players use an angle but they also use heavy picks (-zero pick flex) and play hard on acoustic instruments. That's not the Benson picking technique, though they do use more downstrokes than upstrokes.
I think Mark Stefani is right and that this goes back to what Wes could do with his thumb. George can play fast with his thumb too. So can Henry Johnson. We need to understand that what we are trying to do with a pick can be done without a pick (just not by us!)
-
Mark S. - thanks for the great post re: HJ, GB, and Wes. I have had very similar impressions about the technique. You can go back a few pages to see my and nunocpinto's debate re: rest strokes. I think the thumb is really the foundation of Benson's technique, with a lot of extra flavor thrown in.
I will say that, in defense of this thread, the benefits of "Benson picking" for me went way beyond trying to ape Benson's overall style or content. I can just get the pick moving faster.
There are a lot of players that I like, Tal Farlow, Johnny Smith, even guys like Di Meola, McLaughlin, Steve Vai. With the Benson picking technique I'm starting to be able to get up to speed on some of their licks, too. Couldn't ever do that with the standard grip. I've talked it about it on here before. Not sure why. I still try to practice conventional grip a little bit every day, wondering if I'll eventually be able to get it up to speed, but I have some serious blocks.
Benson picking opened up the right hand for me so that I feel like I can learn anything I need to. I think it's a technique worth exploring for anyone who feels like they struggle with the picking hand. Ironically, as you say, Benson's technical bag doesn't seem to rely too much on complex string-crossing alt-picking patterns, but I didn't really get into it in order to learn Benson's licks.
If you can't alt-pick the standard E-position major scale shape in 8th notes at 300bpm, I think it's worth spending a little bit of time exploring your options.
-
That's true of me too. I can play faster this way than I could with a conventional grip. However, I wasn't using economy picking with a conventional grip, or much slurring / sliding either. (Okay, I did those things when playing, but when trying to improve my picking technique, it was dead alternate picking.) Originally Posted by ecj
I just posted this video of Herb Ellis on another thread. It's not Benson picking but it opens with the camera on his right hand, so you get a great look at how he picks. (Note: the picture is deliberately out of focus at first, then comes clearly into focus: Do Not Adjust Your Set!)
Very small picking motions---when he's playing single notes, his wrist doesn't seem to move at all!
Anyway, he could swing at any tempo, play with a great bluesy feel, and wind up north of 300 when the time came. If I could do that holding a pick that way, I happily would!
-
If I had been able to pick fast and clean at 300, I never would've switched. Joe Pass does it with standard grip, so do a bunch of other guys. There are obvious benefits to the standard grip that would've made it more attractive (muting, etc.) if I had been able to get it working.
My current theory is that as a tall guy, the Benson position allows my arm to relax more and eliminates tension. I always used to have to crank my shoulder up to get my hand into the right position for good tone in standard grip.
-
"Yes, I know you feel this way but I don't think it is an tenable position. The loudest possible volume comes with using the flat face of the pick on the string. If you're using an angle, you'll get less volume. (And still less volume with a still steeper angle.)" markrhodes
if you listen to the benson home masterclass tape you can hear very clearly how hard he plays and how strong his acoustic volume is. a very large part of the appeal of this technique is that you can achieve a strong full acoustic sound (which, typically, you amplify obviously) AND terrific facility. this is a great technique for classic archtop guitar - it would not be that if it reduced acoustic volume to almost nothing.Last edited by Groyniad; 09-04-2014 at 02:31 PM.
-
I think a lot of it has to do with the picking angle. I've been working on it. Benson gets a much brighter, strong acoustic tone than I can right now on that masterclass. I think part of it has to do with following the JC Stylles' instructional vid, where you're turned almost 90 degrees to the string. Sounds great on electric, but you lose your gas on acoustic. Originally Posted by Groyniad
So far in acoustic situations I've been pretty drowned out. I'm trying to get a flatter angle, and then I also need to pick up a purely acoustic instrument, I think.
-
I'm glad you challenged me on this. I spent some time today experimenting and I realize I was wrong before. If I use a very heavy pick and a steep angle, I get almost no sound. If I use a .38 nylon pick, Robert Conti's choice, I get less volume when the pick comes flat against the string and less still at a steep angle. (You wanna see some serious pick flex, try a .38 nylon pick: they're all give!) . But with a Fender Medium I get the same volume with a pretty steep angle as I do with the pick flat against the strings. The 'flat' pick sound is wider and brighter but not louder. The angled pick sound is rounder and more focused, which I prefer. But it is not less loud. At all. So I don't have any decrease in volume with my angle. It was a mistake on my part to think so. Originally Posted by Groyniad
I apologize for that.
-
I agree that Benson gets a strong attack which is especially apparent on the instructional vid. He said somewhere (that interview Destinytot posted?) that he hits the strings really hard - I think that strong attack is a big part of his staccato sound and strong groove. Thing is he can do it while being totally relaxed which is cool.
However in terms of acoustic volume, I think there's a limit to how loud you can get using a medium pick. IME medium picks (when listening to the playback of a recording) appear to be louder than they actually are. The pick flex can snap the note making it pop out clearly giving the impression that the string is being hit fairly hard, but to get that same kind of pop with an extra heavy pick it would be heaps louder.
That's actually one of the reasons I dig it as a technique - you can get strong definition without hitting the hell out of the strings.
-
I'll challenge you on that Mark! The acoustic archtop players (non GB pickers of course) use picks 1.5mm and higher. I've got a gypsy guitar that I fool around on, and the heavier the pick (using Gypsy picking) the louder it gets - the difference is quite dramatic when I go from 1.5mm to 3.5mm. Laminate archtops like your ibanez have less range in volume - there's only so loud you can hit them before the strings rattle, so the effect is less pronounced perhaps. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
-
Well, I'm talking about the guitar I'm playing. I'm sure there is a limit to its acoustic volume (without rattling) and suspect it is a LOT less than the acoustic volume limit of a Gypsy guitar. I never thought about volume and picking before getting the .38 nylon picks---they produce markedly less volume and it's no wonder, it's like they are brushing the strings. Originally Posted by 3625
The Medium picks please me because the note seems more focused. I think Philco called it a "thonk" sound. I don't know if I "thonk" but I like where I am.Last edited by MarkRhodes; 09-04-2014 at 07:21 PM.
-
To clarify my earlier comments - heavy picks on flatwounds don't get much volume because they don't get any traction on the string. But an acoustic L5 with 13 gauge rounds - heavier pick will get you more volume than a medium once the force you exert on the string surpasses a certain threshold.
-
Gotcha. I am using flatwounds. I don't see an L5 in my future, though it would be nice.... Originally Posted by 3625
-
Yeah a polished extra heavy pick just seems to slip off the (flatwound) strings doesn't it? You can get it to grip the string if you do a reststroke though.
Also, flats have much less acoustic bandwidth than rounds - there's only so hard you can hit them to get more volume before it's counterproductive.
-
That's what I found with Primetones. Originally Posted by 3625
It's funny to me now that I used small, thick picks for so long and now use big, medium ones that cost a quarter each, less in bulk.
-
Originally Posted by 3625
v. interesting point about loudness. its so consistent and well defined that it might seem louder than it is - wonderful projection.
I'm having an interesting time trying to refine the pick grip. its really not just about finding the grip that gets you the fastest articulation - its also about getting the grip that gets you the nicest sound. i am finding that the more tightly i clam the pick - the more i press into it with a locked thumb - the better the tone it. i think its also true that the more effective the clamp on the pick is, the better you'll be able to play really fast passages.
if you clamp a ruler quite lightly against a desk and thwack it the sound it makes is looser than if you clamp a ruler really tightly against a desk and thwack it
-
Originally Posted by 3625
v. interesting point about loudness. its so consistent and well defined that it might seem louder than it is - wonderful projection.
I'm having an interesting time trying to refine the pick grip. its really not just about finding the grip that gets you the fastest articulation - its also about getting the grip that gets you the nicest sound. i am finding that the more tightly i clamp the pick - the more i press into it with a locked thumb - the better the tone is. i think its also true that the more effective the clamp on the pick is, the better you'll be able to play really fast passages.
this is one of the reasons i dig this technique so much - suddenly the demands of tone production and those of articulation do not pull in different directionsLast edited by Groyniad; 09-05-2014 at 12:47 PM. Reason: typos
-
Only a teacher would think of this example! ;o) Originally Posted by Groyniad
-
It seems that the perfect balance of left and right hand would be to pick each note. Originally Posted by JazzOnSix
That way, the left hand and right hand are cooperating with the sounding of each and every note.
I have done a lot of that in my day (-with the exception of a few trills, flourishes and pet licks). But I am making it a point now to do less and less of it.
So I'm having to find balance where the left hand is busier than the right. (With the exception of tremolo passages, where the right hand is very busy while the left hand is not.) And where the right hand is playing more downstrokes than upstrokes.
This isn't proving to be difficult. Yet I expected it to. I'm glad that it isn't creating a problem but I'm curious as to how my right hand knows what to do!
-
The right hand will figure it out, no matter what picking approach you're using. That's why so many guitarists are technical virtuosos who make it look easy, yet pick differently. More on that later. To me, the most important thing is "what" you're trying to figure out, and that's where GB truly shines, as well as other players cut from the language-based cloth. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Btw, I think it's great to hear a number of you making progress with Benson picking. As Mr. Rhodes said to me on the side, "Whatever works.." and I couldn't agree more. Just make sure that what you're applying the new approach to is meaningful and something that you would actually play for someone, because that's what George has always been about. He let's the music dictate his technique, not the other way around.
For the record, my goal as a listener mirrors what I seek as a player and composer. I want superior Content, Phrasing, Feel and Message. Not necessarily in that order, although the first two tend to pique my interest more since all of my mentors and influences (including GB) have the other two going on in a big way. However, from the perspective of the average listener, 99% of them want Message and Feel more than anything else. In either case, if you have all four of those traits in play it really doesn't make any difference how fast or how slow you are, nor what technical approach you're using.
Since Benson's name is in the title of this thread, look at the complete package when you consider what he's done technically, because he's never practiced exercises, scales, modes, arpeggios, etc. If anything, he's been like a sponge in absorbing core language and using that as the ultimate means to an end. As one tiny example, GB can still play and scat sing two dozen Bird alto sax solos note-for-note. He also knows just about every bebop and blues head in existence (great phrasing source - more on that later, too) and is a self-professed lick hound and thief. If you have his fireside lesson DVD, listen to what he says at the end of the section where he discusses his many influences:
"When you're around me, if you don't want me to take it, don't play it!" - George Benson
I have more to share with regards to how fast is fast enough, density in solos and other issues, but the one thing I'd suggest is that you choose what you're using to advance your technique wisely, like he did. That way when the smoke clears you've got FAR more to show for it than speed itself. All for now..
-
I'll take your word for the first thing, the right hand finding its own way. I mean, I spent a long time obsessing over that and I'm just going to stop for awhile. I'm working on some of Herb's solo choruses on "All the Things You Are." Great stuff. Talk about 'core language'! Originally Posted by JazzOnSix
I've heard that George had some problems early on with Jack McDuff---he had trouble with the tempos and some of the changes. How did he get his stuff together????
Reply With Quote
Sonny S. -- Les Paul Player
Today, 04:18 AM in The Players