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  1. #51

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    Philco, thanks! I have been out traveling and found this post on my arrival home late last night. I think it is the best presented attempt I have seen on the subject, which at least for me has been rather elusive. I sat and tried it for a couple of hours and to my great delight found it worked, at times at least. Cant really portray fully my thanks! All the best, 0zoro

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Morning, guys. Another day, more practice, think it's getting better. Meanwhile, I have a question about the shoulder. How do you situate yours so there is no tension in it? Does your shoulder hang free when you play or is it pressed against the guitar somewhere?

  4. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by 0zoro
    Philco, thanks! I have been out traveling and found this post on my arrival home late last night. I think it is the best presented attempt I have seen on the subject, which at least for me has been rather elusive. I sat and tried it for a couple of hours and to my great delight found it worked, at times at least. Cant really portray fully my thanks! All the best, 0zoro
    Cool! I hope you get something out of it.

  5. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Thanks, Frank. That helps. It's good to see it from that angle, as that's the angle I see when I'm playing.
    I'm eager to hear what Philco and Mark C. have to say.

    I love your guitar tone.

    It looks right to me. Keeping in mind that there will be differences from player to player.

    Now comes a couple of months of patient practice.
    There will be breakthroughs and breakdowns.
    Eventually more of the former.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philco

    Now comes a couple of months of patient practice.
    There will be breakthroughs and breakdowns.
    Eventually more of the former.
    I know this was addressed to Frank, but I'm wondering about the months of patient practice. I know they're required but, aside from slow exercises to start with, do you spend time going over licks you learned The Old Way and re-learn them, or learn new things the new way and gradually absorb the old stuff?

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I know this was addressed to Frank, but I'm wondering about the months of patient practice. I know they're required but, aside from slow exercises to start with, do you spend time going over licks you learned The Old Way and re-learn them, or learn new things the new way and gradually absorb the old stuff?
    I video tape myself often and I still notice myself sometimes falling back towards my old way of picking. I think one needs to go cold turkey and adopt this as your technique and be vigilant and on the look out of falling back into old habits.

  8. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I know this was addressed to Frank, but I'm wondering about the months of patient practice. I know they're required but, aside from slow exercises to start with, do you spend time going over licks you learned The Old Way and re-learn them, or learn new things the new way and gradually absorb the old stuff?
    Yeah I would definitely move everything over to this style.......eventually.
    Don't hammer yourself too much with the most complex things at first. Just take a few lines and work on them.
    Slowly is the way.

    I wasn't sure if I would be able to cover all the Pat Martino stuff I had learned over 20 years ago but it's actually easier with this style.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philco
    Yeah I would definitely move everything over to this style.......eventually.
    Don't hammer yourself too much with the most complex things at first. Just take a few lines and work on them.
    Slowly is the way.

    I wasn't sure if I would be able to cover all the Pat Martino stuff I had learned over 20 years ago but it's actually easier with this style.
    Good to hear. I could always play fast...sometimes. But I was maddeningly inconsistent. If the Benson technique is just more reliable for me, that would be reason enough to change. Of course, I hope I get faster too....

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    I did a little bit of this slow picking from a players perspective camera angle. For evaluation, what do you guys think?

    And, to help folks trying to learn this.

    Note, based on my understanding, I made a mistake when playing the 3rd and 6th scale degree the first time, I shouldn't have lifted the pick. I should have just followed through. The second time with the alternating picking, I did it correctly on the 6th (the 3rd doesn't apply).

    Hey Frank,
    That looks great, and yes, the first time you played it through with only downstrokes you shouldn't lift your pick if you're going to play that string anyway. Wasted motion.

    Mark

  11. #60

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    We haven't talked about comping: does that present any challenges I should be on guard against?

  12. #61

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    I always liked Benson's style, it's exciting in the way Django's style is exciting, but I listen to Wes more than either player because I like his lines better. Then again, I like about 20 or so horn players more than I like listening to Wes, and my aim with the guitar is to play any horn like line I wish to. One of my first transcriptions many years ago was Parker's Koko. t's moderately fast at around 308 bpm, but the challenge was in how to articulate his lines, not just barely get the notes out. This taught me a lot about how to personalize a hybrid picking technique as it broke all the rules I was initially shown, ie, strict alternate picking with down strokes for downbeats etc. Even something as simple as starting a downbeat on an upstroke (to expediate certain aspects of eco picking) took ages to "get".

    Which brings me to this discussion. While I can see how GB picking ( the short go I had at it) can get me to 360 bpm for long flowing 8ths, it also does away with the nuances my usual picking allows. All those Bird lines forced me to use every combination of pick direction, alternation, eco gliding, sweeping, slurring etc. GB picking makes me feel like I'm regressing to a form of angled alternate picking. Not knocking it, I can see that if you spent a lifetime at it you'd do a lot with it. But for me, I can also see there may be a lot you can't do with it, eg sounding like Cannonball Adderley's phrasing, or Jackie Maclean....

    So my question is: Do you guys disagree that the GB technique closes doors on certain possible nuances regarding dynamics, expression, articulation etc? Can you point to a GB picker that phrases like a horn player? (Not that many conventional pickers do )......

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    Hey Frank,
    That looks great, and yes, the first time you played it through with only downstrokes you shouldn't lift your pick if you're going to play that string anyway. Wasted motion.

    Mark
    Thanks for checking on this for me Mark (Cally). It's good that I did this and caught that I'm lifting the pick. I don't just down pick often, I think this is just a problem when I'm doing all down picks. Easy enough to fix.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    I always liked Benson's style, it's exciting in the way Django's style is exciting, but I listen to Wes more than either player because I like his lines better. Then again, I like about 20 or so horn players more than I like listening to Wes, and my aim with the guitar is to play any horn like line I wish to. One of my first transcriptions many years ago was Parker's Koko. t's moderately fast at around 308 bpm, but the challenge was in how to articulate his lines, not just barely get the notes out. This taught me a lot about how to personalize a hybrid picking technique as it broke all the rules I was initially shown, ie, strict alternate picking with down strokes for downbeats etc. Even something as simple as starting a downbeat on an upstroke (to expediate certain aspects of eco picking) took ages to "get".

    Which brings me to this discussion. While I can see how GB picking ( the short go I had at it) can get me to 360 bpm for long flowing 8ths, it also does away with the nuances my usual picking allows. All those Bird lines forced me to use every combination of pick direction, alternation, eco gliding, sweeping, slurring etc. GB picking makes me feel like I'm regressing to a form of angled alternate picking. Not knocking it, I can see that if you spent a lifetime at it you'd do a lot with it. But for me, I can also see there may be a lot you can't do with it, eg sounding like Cannonball Adderley's phrasing, or Jackie Maclean....

    So my question is: Do you guys disagree that the GB technique closes doors on certain possible nuances regarding dynamics, expression, articulation etc? Can you point to a GB picker that phrases like a horn player? (Not that many conventional pickers do )......
    I'm glad you asked this question because I was planning on it but haven't gotten around to it

    I've noticed with the little I have messed around with it (GBpicking) I could get going pretty quickly with no tension, but I couldn't articulate in anyway to get it to "sound right"...

    I've been doing a lot of transcribing of Jimmy Raney in the past month or so and have noticed I can't get anything close to tempo without employing everything under the sun also...(every combination of pick direction, alternation, eco gliding, sweeping, slurring etc.)

  15. #64

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    What is "eco gliding"? That phrase is new to me.

  16. #65

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    I play with horn players all the time... read through typical up tempo phrases with typical articulations referencing different instruments. I have no problem using different picking patterns... mixing and matching all types of picking, sweeps, ghost techniques. What ever's notated or implied. The only problems generally come from lack of technique more related with fingerings. Picking articulations should be able to be performed with either direction of picking.

    I would believe the lack of ability or technique to phrase how you want... would only be a problem if you don't have your picking technique developed... it's not instinctive. There's quite a difference between being able to phrase a line first time... as compared to being able to phrase a line with practice. If lots of practice is required... almost any technique can work, some need more practice time than others.

    Different technique is required when playing in different positions on the neck. That needs to be instinctive... you don't get to practice or rehearse when your playing.

    I kind of dig guitar phrasing. Philco's example was great, would dig hearing some tunes... more feel with longer examples to see his technique in real time... I would think it would work very well. As I've always said being able to play fast isn't just for playing burning lines... it gives feel to the slower lines.

  17. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    I always liked Benson's style, it's exciting in the way Django's style is exciting, but I listen to Wes more than either player because I like his lines better. Then again, I like about 20 or so horn players more than I like listening to Wes, and my aim with the guitar is to play any horn like line I wish to. One of my first transcriptions many years ago was Parker's Koko. t's moderately fast at around 308 bpm, but the challenge was in how to articulate his lines, not just barely get the notes out. This taught me a lot about how to personalize a hybrid picking technique as it broke all the rules I was initially shown, ie, strict alternate picking with down strokes for downbeats etc. Even something as simple as starting a downbeat on an upstroke (to expediate certain aspects of eco picking) took ages to "get".

    Which brings me to this discussion. While I can see how GB picking ( the short go I had at it) can get me to 360 bpm for long flowing 8ths, it also does away with the nuances my usual picking allows. All those Bird lines forced me to use every combination of pick direction, alternation, eco gliding, sweeping, slurring etc. GB picking makes me feel like I'm regressing to a form of angled alternate picking. Not knocking it, I can see that if you spent a lifetime at it you'd do a lot with it. But for me, I can also see there may be a lot you can't do with it, eg sounding like Cannonball Adderley's phrasing, or Jackie Maclean....

    So my question is: Do you guys disagree that the GB technique closes doors on certain possible nuances regarding dynamics, expression, articulation etc? Can you point to a GB picker that phrases like a horn player? (Not that many conventional pickers do )......

    We come from similar backgrounds. I spent much time working on Phil Woods solos, Cannonball Adderley, Dexter Gordon etc.
    When I started back playing a couple of years ago I immediately transcribed the 5 Parker takes of Billie's Bounce to get me back in the game so to speak. Plus I worked on the Benson version and an Andreas Oberg version. The Parker versions were technically the hardest to play.
    All that stuff is easier with this technique. Not to be glib or treat your concerns lightly but the technique is quite liberating and seems to only get stronger and stronger.

    But I have to reiterate that if anyone was having coordination problems with their old technique then this may help a little but it wont suddenly solve all those problems.
    I could play these lines before I changed over, but now I play them with ease and consistency. Something I always struggled with before.

  18. #67

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    hehe, just meant economy picking. When I do it right, it kinda feels like my pick is gliding, so...........

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philco
    We come from similar backgrounds. I spent much time working on Phil Woods solos, Cannonball Adderley, Dexter Gordon etc.
    When I started back playing a couple of years ago I immediately transcribed the 5 Parker takes of Billie's Bounce to get me back in the game so to speak. Plus I worked on the Benson version and an Andreas Oberg version. The Parker versions were technically the hardest to play.
    All that stuff is easier with this technique. Not to be glib or treat your concerns lightly but the technique is quite liberating and seems to only get stronger and stronger.

    But I have to reiterate that if anyone was having coordination problems with their old technique then this may help a little but it wont suddenly solve all those problems.
    I could play these lines before I changed over, but now I play them with ease and consistency. Something I always struggled with before.
    I'd be interested to hear your example of Parker lines using GB.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    While I can see how GB picking ( the short go I had at it) can get me to 360 bpm for long flowing 8ths,..
    Yikes... I could practice for the rest of my life and have spent a lot of time already... I don't think I could close to that. All I can think is we are wired differently.

  21. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    I'd be interested to hear your example of Parker lines using GB.
    Sure thing. I'll include some in the next video. I seem to remember them being more of a challenge for the left hand than the right.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Yikes... I could practice for the rest of my life and have spent a lot of time already... I don't think I could close to that. All I can think is we are wired differently.
    Pretty sure Philco's examples are up around there. There are plenty cats who like burning at that tempo, I suppose if you can play consecutive notes just on the one string that fast then you have the "twitch reflex" or whatever it is, to play across all the strings at that tempo. It's definitely easier to do with GB, and I kinda like the clicky sound, but with my conventional method, my pick angles every which way according to what I need it to do, so it would take me too long to undo all that I think.... Besides, 300 - 320 is plenty for me! If anything I'm trying to sound better at slower tempos, my left hand finds slower tempos harder because of the different muscles required for things like slow slurs, and my right hand tends to rush things like sweeps. Too much practicing at quick tempos!

  23. #72

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    PP ever tried playing at tempos under 50/40bpm? without doing double-time? It's a trip! Drink a pot of coffee and give it a whirl. I heard Brad Mehldau will, as an exercise, run through tunes at 10bpm.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    PP ever tried playing at tempos under 50/40bpm? without doing double-time? It's a trip! Drink a pot of coffee and give it a whirl. I heard Brad Mehldau will, as an exercise, run through tunes at 10bpm.
    Yeah Jake, I have and it's m-u-r-d-e-r ...... dunno if coffee is gonna help, makes me too impatient!

  25. #74
    I did a little slow mo of this. Check out how much pick is hanging out beyond his thumb.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/4g1dtmu3ly...ick%20Hand.mov

    You can also see that the pick angle isn't that acute.

  26. #75
    Check out the "overhang"

    Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo-imoviescreensnapz004-jpg

    Angle shot. Fairly acute but it seems to change a lot.
    Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo-imoviescreensnapz005-jpg