The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #701
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by nunocpinto
    I have seen a lot of videos from him and the pick flex is very important in is sound. On the third clip you can see clearly how he his not rest stroking and there is a video on is page that show even better that but unfortunately it's set to private so i cant post it here.

    Well i guess we can still see this one with Adam Rogers that has some incredible close ups

    Hey, nunocpinto. i've only listened the first few notes, but ..WOW! That's a beautiful song, beautifully played. Thank you! Back to listening - then back to the shed!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #702
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Jones
    As far as I can tell from watching GB videos, I see his pick moving between his fingers but I don't see it flexing.

    Personally I'm currently wondering about the straight upper index thing. I've been trying to implement that but it doesn't feel comfortable, because my hand and forearm tense up when I try to do it.

    Here are two videos so you can see where I'm at right now. I don't attempt to play fast because I'm still very sloppy when I do. Any advice/criticism is welcome !



    Very nice tone.

  4. #703
    destinytot Guest
    Saraiva, mestre!

  5. #704

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecj
    I'm not sure if I'm using pick flex or not, but I do play really hard. I try to get the loudest acoustic sound I possibly can, based on my interpretation of how Benson plays.
    I'm the opposite. I don't play hard at all. This goes back to using a .38 nylon pick. There's no advantage to playing hard. Also, when I was young, I remember Ritchie Blackmore (-Deep Purple) saying that he played with a very light touch and I used to think he was pretty fast, so it was something I thought I might do...

    Now I'm trying to play with less pressure in my fretting hand. It's remarkable to fret a note, pick it, then back off the pressure a bit, pick it, and keep doing that until the note doesn't sound. I was putting WAY too much pressure on the strings. (I think that's why I have a fly-away pinky on my left hand.)


    I do understand the desire for acoustic volume. It has its place. But I'm going for the least amount of volume right now!

    This goes along with something JC told me. In order to have an effective dynamic range, one needs to find the lightest-possible-touch that sounds a note, then find the-strongest-attack-one-will-use, and then find a spot in between so that you have dynamics going in both directions: from normal >>>getting softer / quieter >>>>normal>>>getting louder.

    So I'm finding 'the soft spot' now.

  6. #705
    Quote Originally Posted by mylesgtr
    Hands were feeling alright last night so messed around with GB picking for a bit....hadn't really done it in several months and haven't really been able to play much lately anyway. Wasn't intending to post this...just recorded out of curiosity for my own purposes, but I'll put it up here for a while anyway...will delete later.

    I'm through an amp, but at very low volume recording into my phone near the guitar, so it's picking up more of the unplugged sound. I don't know...it's fun and appealing for a while, but I get pretty tired of hearing myself play this way after a minute. I find it tough not to end up in Benson wannabe land with this attack...

    Miles you don't sound anything like Benson except when you phrase like him. Perhaps your trying to shield yourself from the local jester or have a foot in both camps to avoid any flack but regardless of that you actually only hint at a Benson'esque flavour when you try and cover some similar "licks"……but even then the actual attack of your notes is nothing like Benson.

    You're playing early style bop with standard 251 jazz language in a traditional manner so you sound like a lot of guitar players from that era.
    That's a compliment.

    If you want to sound different from that era then it will be the choice of notes and phrasing that will set you apart from anyone…..not your pick attack.

    Not that you need a lecture from me.

    As an aside and this is only my personal philosophy…..using any other guitar players vocabulary is a mistake if you want to sound fresh and new. I mean if you seriously want to break new ground.
    That's just my personal feeling on the whole "wannabe" issue.
    My 2c.

  7. #706

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    @mylesgtr

    "I just find it difficult personally not to fall into a certain type of playing when I use GB picking, but that's my own shortcoming"

    That might be referred to your style, and not a shortcoming at all.

  8. #707

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    Myles - I dug that take of 'another you' - to my ear it sounded a bit like Billy Bean crossed with some Benson. Not trying to convince you either way, but the swing feel and staccato sounded really good to me.

    Different sub-topic: I've been thinking lately that this growing interest in Benson picking could be the beginnings of 'an established technique' for electric archtop players, much in the same way that classical musicians have established ways of learning technique for their respective instruments like violin etc.

    Given that the plectrum guitar itself is a relatively recent phenomenon, it would make sense that over time certain 'schools' of technique develop, just as they did centuries ago in Europe. Of course, that might mean more efficient results overall for most players combined with an increase in homogenity of style - not saying that's good or bad necessarily, but a repeat of a common historic pattern perhaps.

  9. #708

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    It would be interesting to know how common Benson picking is. It would also be interesting to know how common conventional picking is in its classic form. There may be a few identifiable grips between the one shown in beginner books and what we call Benson picking. Perhaps one of those in-between grips is used by more top-flight players than the conventional grip and the Benson grip. Who really knows?

  10. #709

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    Quote Originally Posted by nunocpinto
    I have seen a lot of videos from him and the pick flex is very important in is sound. On the third clip you can see clearly how he his not rest stroking and there is a video on is page that show even better that but unfortunately it's set to private so i cant post it here.

    Well i guess we can still see this one with Adam Rogers that has some incredible close ups

    This is pretty interesting to me. Farrell's approach is so anchored in Benson, and Rogers tends to use a lot of Metheny's lines and articulation techniques, although he does mix in a lot of other stuff. I think Benson and Metheny are the two most influential modern players, and it's cool to see their influence in this context.

    It makes me really wish there was a concert somewhere of Benson and Metheny themselves collaborating. I'm kind of surprised they never have. I know they both express incredible respect and admiration for one another, and they come out of a very similar stylistic period. I'd pay big money for that album.
    Last edited by ecj; 08-24-2014 at 11:15 AM. Reason: nuno...Farrell is using rest strokes :-)

  11. #710

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    3 weeks now into my attempt on Benson picking and this is how I stand

    I find the one note exercise (rapid tremolo on one note) VERY difficult! The more I rotate my palm upward the harder it gets to get that shaking movement. Also because I still hold the pick quite tight (just trying to use the flex of the pick) my hand sometimes gets force outwards when too much of the pick is hitting the string and then the whole thing grinds to a halt.

    I start with slow down/up and try to increase the speed. I noticed that as the speed goes up the movement seems to come more from the forearm. Not sure it thats right.
    I also found that if I rest too much of my little finger on the pick guard it sort of gives some friction which also holds things up.
    Now sometimes I do get a bit of a roll but then it might not happen at all the next day or the day after.
    I also notices it gets much more difficult to do on the lower strings (D down to E).

    Also as a side effect my left hand is gone to the dogs. Because I'm so concious of my right hand at the moment I find it difficult to play even simple scales!

    So so far it has been quite frustrating but I am trying to just keep at it with the hope things will improve at some stage.

    Wondering if anyone is battling through these stages at the moment...

  12. #711

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    One advice that I can give you is to not try to forcefully rotate your palm : just let it naturally take its place. setemupjoe's video explains that very well, it helped me a lot.

    As for the pinky friction, let the "non active" fingers (middle, ring and pinky) naturally curl. When they are curled in they glide more easily on the pickguard
    Last edited by Nabil B; 08-26-2014 at 08:44 AM.

  13. #712

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    Check out Sheryl Bailey's pick technique at 3 minutes into this.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=LIRW4Wq1API

  14. #713

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    Quote Originally Posted by fm42
    I find the one note exercise (rapid tremolo on one note) VERY difficult!

    ...

    Wondering if anyone is battling through these stages at the moment...
    Hey fm42 - don't get discouraged. I think most of us who did not have the natural gift for the instrument went through what you're talking about. It took me about a year after I started seriously practicing the instrument around 18 or 19 before I could tremolo on a single string. I couldn't figure out what was wrong with me, and thought about giving it up many times. I can pick pretty fast now, so take that for what it's worth.

    I think until you can figure out the "shake" feeling and the tremolo, there's no point in doing slow practice. I know this will probably get me pilloried by the technique police, but I really think slow practice is step two of learning basic picking technique. The first step is to understand what the motion of picking fast feels like.

    If you're doing super slow practice with a technique that doesn't scale up, you're going to fail. I tried that so many times over the years. You have to figure out what it feels like to play fast, first, to understand which muscles to use.

    I can still remember the night I figured it out. I got really pissed off after a lesson and went in my room, turned off the lights, and lay down on the floor with the guitar on my belly. I just sat there trying to tremolo pick for like and hour and a half, and finally got it.

    At the time, I was doing the shredder style forearm motion, so I eventually ran into problems with tension down the road. But feeling the pick actually going quickly on one string was a big eye opener.

    The big benefit that you have, is that the technique has been unpacked and laid out for you here. The Benson picking stuff described on this thread works, but there's a part that can't really be taught easily, and that's the tremolo. Once you get an understanding of what the tremolo feels like, you can try to slow down and control that motion.

    Try putting on a movie and just sitting and watching it with your guitar working on getting that shake tremolo motion going on the G string. I bet after a couple hours where you aren't beating yourself up and are just enjoying the movie you'll be able to get it. Just try to relax and let the little twitchy muscles do their thing.

  15. #714

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    Thanks for the suggestions.
    The only reason I start slowly is to guage location of the tip of the pick in relation to the string so it does not give too much resistance. After that its trying to find that 'shake' motion.
    As far as turning my palm up I only turn it so the pinky can touch the pick guard.

  16. #715

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    Quote Originally Posted by fm42
    Thanks for the suggestions.
    The only reason I start slowly is to guage location of the tip of the pick in relation to the string so it does not give too much resistance. After that its trying to find that 'shake' motion.
    As far as turning my palm up I only turn it so the pinky can touch the pick guard.
    Take a quick video. That's the best way. Folks will be able to give you some feedback.

    Just turn on the webcam and do a minute or so of picking slowly, then trying to pick fast. You can get this, and it'll be worth it for all the uncertainty it will remove.

  17. #716

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    "Regarding picking, I used to play with a Clayton 2mm standard-shaped acetal pick, but switched to .80 after buying JC Stylles's tutorial and then - quite recently - to a Fender Medium. I find I can get any of these picks to 'work' for me by adjusting the strength/force with which I hold them, but the Fender Medium is by far the easiest to use.

    However, following the discussion of pick flex, I decided to experiment with Fender Thins. And I'm so glad that I did, because it's what I'll be using from now on.

    I would never have expected a thin pick to be at all suitable for playing with the kind of dynamics and phrasing I like, but it most definitely is. All I can say is 'The Shape' works for me. And it makes it easier to play music." Destinytot

    delighted to hear you tried the thin-way and it worked. i love the way it feels with a thin - and i think it really tells you how the medium should work (when you get the anatomical changes necessary to keep it under control - i think)
    Last edited by Groyniad; 08-26-2014 at 02:08 PM. Reason: quote attributed to destinytot

  18. #717

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecj
    Take a quick video. That's the best way. Folks will be able to give you some feedback.

    Just turn on the webcam and do a minute or so of picking slowly, then trying to pick fast. You can get this, and it'll be worth it for all the uncertainty it will remove.
    That's such good advice. For everyone else too. We don't bite here. We like to help. And a minute of video shows more than a thousand words can say.

    Even if it's not great---I've posted my share of "am I doing this right?" videos---you're better for having done it, gotten some feedback and realized, "hey, the earth didn't divide and swallow me whole! Imagine that..."

  19. #718

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot

    However, following the discussion of pick flex, I decided to experiment with Fender Thins. And I'm so glad that I did, because it's what I'll be using from now on.

    I would never have expected a thin pick to be at all suitable for playing with the kind of dynamics and phrasing I like, but it most definitely is. All I can say is 'The Shape' works for me. And it makes it easier to play music.
    So glad to hear you are happy and enthused. I have some Fender Thins around. I think I liked them except for my thumb warping them a bit. (I like it that the Medium lays flat after use.) I'll try one again this evening though just to see how it feels now.

    Again, so glad to hear you are where you want to be.

  20. #719

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    Re: picks & pick flex - I've noticed different brands vary according pick flex. For example, I've got Fender, Planet Waves and Dunlop - all shell mediums - and the Fenders have the most flex. Even though the Planet Waves is .70, not .75 like some brands, it still flexes a tiny bit less than the Fender.

    With Fender shell mediums, the newer ones are lighter in colour, and the gold font characters seem to be slightly thinner - I get the feeling they're being made to a cheaper spec compared to the old ones. Still good, but the old ones look, feel and sound 5-10% better in my highly subjective opinion.

    I've just ordered some D'Andrea .71 shell celluloids - I've always been impressed by the quality of all the D'Andrea picks I've owned, so if these are as good or better than the old Fenders I might switch to them.

    Apparently there's not that many places in the world that makes celluloid anymore - China makes it, and I read somewhere in Italy too, but that might be about it.
    Last edited by 3625; 08-26-2014 at 08:50 PM.

  21. #720

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    I used to use Clayton picks because I really liked the scrapey sound they made. I might have to try out some of the thinner versions (always used to use 1.0mm) to see if I like how they work with Benson picking.

    The standard Dunlop tortexes don't have enough volume for me. They sound "deader" than the fender mediums. Something about how smooth the material is, I think.

    What I'm trying to figure out now is how to get a good acoustic tone out of the technique. It seems much quieter than standard grip. I've had a couple disappointing outings to acoustic sessions where I couldn't even really hear myself play. I always forget that the arch top sounds way louder to the listener, though, and I still need to get myself an acoustic box.

  22. #721

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    For those interested in thin picks - D'Andrea also make a thin/medium gauge of .58mm

    In between thin at .46 and medium at .71

  23. #722

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    I got the fender blue pearl color (http://www.pssl.com/images/ProdImage...8-0351-802.jpg), medium gauge picks. They don't seem to have a lot of flex and I'm curious to know if they are different from the tortoise colored ones.

  24. #723

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    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Jones
    I got the fender blue pearl color (http://www.pssl.com/images/ProdImage...8-0351-802.jpg), medium gauge picks. They don't seem to have a lot of flex and I'm curious to know if they are different from the tortoise colored ones.
    I believe Philco, a self-identified "pick slut" is the person to ask about this. He seems to have tried everything and made judicious comparisons.

  25. #724

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    I've used all the different color fender mediums. I know the consensus here seems to be that the traditional brown tortoise shell ones are the best but I have found it to be a fairly subtle distinction between them. All the different colors work fine for me.

  26. #725

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    Pick color?

    I have red fender mediums and brown tortoirse colored fender mediums, I can not tell the difference.

    For those that say there is a difference I wish I could conduct an experiment. 100 fender mediums in a bowl of various colors, blind-folded with a guitar, could you sort out the brown tortoise colored ones?

    I'd bet you couldn't.