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  1. #1

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    I'm wondering what kind of guitar Joe Pass used on his Virtuoso albums...

    Sounds quite acoustic, I love that tone! Anybody know the type of guitar?


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  3. #2

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    I'm not 100% sure but I think he might have used the guitar he had made by Jimmy D'Aquisto. I don't know the model but I've seen him in pictures with that instrument.

  4. #3

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    I couldn't get the video before but I was just able to listen to it and I'm pretty sure that's a D'Aquisto he's playing. It's got miles and miles of great acoustic tone. I don't think he can get that kind of tone out of the ES 175. Why would he want to use an ES175 acoustically?

  5. #4

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    His main "workhorse"was a cross section of Gibson ES-175 and according to Roy Rose (this months JJG mag) two D'Aquisto's one of which was acoustic the other with one pickup.Two signature Ibanezes;a signature Epiphone Emperor a couple of classicals a Martin 12- string,a Yamaha an Ovation and a battered old Gibson L-5.

    I would say its the acoustic D'Aquisto on the video.

  6. #5

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    Just checked my old tape and "Round Midnight "and would say definitely sounds acoustic D'Aquisto New York.The image on Youtube is a Gibson Es175 with Florentine cutaway and zigzag tailpiece.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    It was his es-175. An instrument he'd had many many years. It was quite a causual setting, a suggestion that he do some of the things he does when he's by himself. Nothing quite like that had been done so it wasn't the big iconic album it's come to be.
    I'd heard that there were actually other tracks of the recording that had mic'd the amp more, but somehow they were misplaced, and that's why the mic'ing is so acoustic. That's the way I remember the story anyway.

    Yes he had Jimmy D' build him a guitar, a big New Yorker but that 175 was his workhorse.
    David
    I heard the story from Bill Thrasher back around 1980, a friend of Joe's and the author of the Joe Pass Guitar Styles book. They intended to have two tracks, one of the guitar mic'd and one of the amp mic'd. The engineer screwed up and for all the tunes except Here's That Rainy Day he only recorded the mic on the guitar. Since they had a philosophy of only one take on each tune, they just went with it. That's why the tone is so thin and tinny on that album. Who would only mic a laminated es-175? The playing is great though.

    Listen to the tracks and compare Here's That Rainy Day to the rest of the tracks. You can hear a sample of each track at Amazon:

    Amazon.com: Virtuoso: Joe Pass: Music

  8. #7

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    I hate to be a party pooper but his tone on those albums sounds exactly like a 175 played acoustically. That is, it's a pretty weak sound but better than a 335 or Strat played acoustically.

    By no stretch of the imagination does the acoustic sound of a 175 even remotely compare to a real acoustic archtop. The former will sound weak with no timbre compared to the latter which will have lots of volume and timbre.

  9. #8

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    The story about the engineer either screwing up or a mechanical problem leading to the electric tracks being unused is always the story I've heard.

    I'm surprised folks like that tone on that record...most folks I know (myself included) aren't a fan...but then again, I think it's one of many bad tones Joe recorded with over the years...I've never heard another player who's "quality of playing" versus "quality of tone from recording" output is so imbalanced.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    The story about the engineer either screwing up or a mechanical problem leading to the electric tracks being unused is always the story I've heard.
    Yes. I managed a specialty record store (mostly classical and jazz) in the 70s and 80s and that story was what I heard from insiders at the time.
    Brad

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

    I've never heard another player who's "quality of playing" versus "quality of tone from recording" output is so imbalanced.
    I couldn't agree more. Joe is proof that tone is NOT in the fingers lol.

  12. #11

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    pretty sure i remember reading that exact story in the actual album liner notes. joe's tones (amp on or not) isnt as nearly a pinnacle as his playing is. so weird to have such two extremes. im guessing it is a 50's 175 you are hearing, from back when they had a little bit of a acoustic sound. now they sound like laminate logs.

  13. #12

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    I think it's a 175 played acoustically. To my ears the 175 has a distinctive "tubby" sound, with less sustain that many jazz guitars. I may be wrong, but that's what my ears are telling me :-)

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattymel
    im guessing it is a 50's 175 you are hearing, from back when they had a little bit of a acoustic sound. now they sound like laminate logs.
    It was a 1961 ES175D - he was shown with it at the cover of the orginal vinyl recording. It had the very slim 1961 neck which some players loved, others hated. Joe loved his and later had a dispute with Jimmy D'Aquisto about the neck of the instrument D'Aquisto made for him. Joe found the neck too thick, but D'Aquisto didn't agree and refused to shave it down. The 175 was given to Joe by a benefactor after Joe came out of Synanon. He used it for quite some years until he got the D'Aquisto and later the Ibanez signature guitar. In his last years he was seen with a new one-pickup 175 (with the PU closer to the neck than usual).

    BTW, I don't like very much the acoustic sound of his 175 on the Virtuoso record. It's because of Joe and not the guitar it's a great record anyway.
    Last edited by oldane; 08-11-2011 at 01:58 PM.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    I heard the story from Bill Thrasher back around 1980, a friend of Joe's and the author of the Joe Pass Guitar Styles book. They intended to have two tracks, one of the guitar mic'd and one of the amp mic'd. The engineer screwed up and for all the tunes except Here's That Rainy Day he only recorded the mic on the guitar. Since they had a philosophy of only one take on each tune, they just went with it. That's why the tone is so thin and tinny on that album. Who would only mic a laminated es-175? The playing is great though.

    Listen to the tracks and compare Here's That Rainy Day to the rest of the tracks. You can hear a sample of each track at Amazon:

    Amazon.com: Virtuoso: Joe Pass: Music
    This is something like what I heard also, i.e. it is in fact an ES175 recorded just with a mic! I've also heard that Pass did not really like the tone on that album, but wasn't the sort to fuss very much about guitar tone anyway, so let it go.

  16. #15

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    I stand corrected. I did like that album.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattymel
    pretty sure i remember reading that exact story in the actual album liner notes.
    No, I thought that might have been it, too, but I pulled out the LP (that I've had since the 70s). It's not on there, but I know I heard about it back then. My best guess (it has been 40 years) is that the RCA sales rep (Pablo was distributed by them) who was a jazz buff told me. I'll have to give it a listen and compare it to the sound on "Porgy and Bess" that was definitely recorded acoustically and sounds more like a 175 than I remember VIrtuoso doing.
    Brad

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by brad4d8
    I'll have to give it a listen and compare it to the sound on "Porgy and Bess" that was definitely recorded acoustically and sounds more like a 175 than I remember Virtuoso doing.
    I just did a side by side comparison of Virtuoso and Porgy and Bess. The sound of the guitar, to my old ears, is the same. If the cover of Porgy is to be believed, it's the 175. Again, I'm working partly from memory as I have Porgy on CD and the pic is pretty small, but I remember the LP from the store and am pretty certain it's a 175. The sound I was remembering as different for pass was actully the sound of Peterson's clavichord. Regardless, good playing on both records.
    Brad

  19. #18

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    ...and Herb, and Jim, and Pat and so many others I admire who played ES175's with such impact. Joe Pass' recordings, for whatever reasons, could never match the experience of sitting a few feet from him and watching, listening, and just letting the power of his music sink in. I was fortunate to enjoy that several times, and it was magical and inspirational. So of course, as soon as I could afford it I bought that guitar, and all these years later, that funky plywood jazz box continues to amaze me with its durability, weight, tone and ideal scale & proportions (for me). It's good for hours of comfortable playing daily, and bears sweat, weather, and all other casualties of playing music with grace and style.

    I have a few other guitars, don't we all? But this one is what got me started, as far as my adventures in the jazz go. If you can find a pre-60's model - times are tough, check the pawn shops - grab it, and enjoy!

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimBobWay
    ...and Herb, and Jim, and Pat and so many others I admire who played ES175's with such impact. Joe Pass' recordings, for whatever reasons, could never match the experience of sitting a few feet from him and watching, listening, and just letting the power of his music sink in. I was fortunate to enjoy that several times, and it was magical and inspirational. So of course, as soon as I could afford it I bought that guitar, and all these years later, that funky plywood jazz box continues to amaze me with its durability, weight, tone and ideal scale & proportions (for me). It's good for hours of comfortable playing daily, and bears sweat, weather, and all other casualties of playing music with grace and style.

    I have a few other guitars, don't we all? But this one is what got me started, as far as my adventures in the jazz go. If you can find a pre-60's model - times are tough, check the pawn shops - grab it, and enjoy!
    And I went and sold mine. There's another entry in my most stupidest decision book. It was one of the most comfortable guitars I owned. Then again, I let it go to protect it from the hurricanes I was going through in Florida. I couldn't take it with me during the evacuations and I couldn't bear seeing it under a collapsed roof.

  21. #20

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    Just played my vynil copy of Virtuoso (1974, Pablo Records) and agree with those who state Joe Plays an ES 175D acoustically. However in "Here's that Rainy Day" it sounds to me like amplified and played at low volume. Did´t find in the liner notes by Benny Green any mention to how the guitar was recorded. The picture shows the fretboard, nut and part of the headstock, the upper part of the treble side with the toggle switch in the neck position and a HB pickup placed at the normal distance form the fretboard as in all 175s. Both the sound and picture tells me Joe played a Gibson ES 175D. The bright sound is typical Pass tone. IMHO.

  22. #21

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    I was listening to Virtuoso I in the car on the way to work today; man, if I could get like five of those arrangements under my fingers and up to speed I would die with a smile on my face! I've always wondered about how that album was recorded. You can hear string and other extraneous noises on several of the tracks which leads me to conclude that his guitar was miked, not recorded direct or through an amp (except for "Here's That Rainy Day"). On the cover Joe is pictured with his 175, though in Virtuoso IV, which was recorded at the same sessions in Nov. 1973, there's a picture of Joe with what I think is a D'Aquisto. I think I remember an interview with Joe where he said that they simultaneously miked his guitar and also recorded his sound through an amp, but that they lost the amped tracks. I also heard a story that the amp in the studio broke or something like that. In any case, my question is, was it really his ES-175? It's just hard for me to imagine getting that acoustic sound out of that model guitar. Anyone know for sure?

    BTW I'm relatively knew to this forum, so my apologies if this topic has been thoroughly discussed in the past.
    Last edited by Ren; 10-27-2014 at 02:30 PM. Reason: Spelling

  23. #22

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    The story behind Virtuoso 1 is something along the lines of, the guitar was meant to be mic'd and plugged in and the tones blended, but something went wrong in the process and for many of the cuts, only the mic'd tone remained.

    Judged by how awful that tone is, I'd say it's most definitely an unplugged 175.

  24. #23

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    I never like the sound on those Virtuoso albums, great playing terrible sound.

    I saw Joe at the Lighthouse around that time and sounded so much nicer with his 175 and Polytone.

  25. #24

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    FWIW I've heard a rumor that Virtuoso is actually an Ovation Acoustic!?!?!

  26. #25

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    I love that album; when listening I can so easily forget about the lousy tone - which makes me wonder why so many of us spend so much time chasing the "ultimate tone"