The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Just looking for any insights to some of this modern style jazz guitar. Seems there is a lot of angular type shapes and phrases. Some cool harmonic concepts etc. Just wondering if there is anything in common or if anyone can shed any light on any of these players' approaches. Particularly Rosenwinkel interests me. I saw him warming up once, and was amazed just from that yet alone what followed it.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    lage lund and will vinson came and did a master class together at my college and performed some great tunes. lage's comping is amazing; very pianistic i thought. he reminded me alot of joe pass, i definitely recognized a few licks in his single line soloing here and there. even when they were done playing and taking questions, the head professor of the jazz program said, "you listen to a lot of joe pass, don't you?" Lage tried to shrug his shoulders as if he had maybe once or twice. haha maybe a few THOUSAND times at least

  4. #3

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    One thing about the modern cats, they find a lot of inspiration from players who are NOT guitarists: Horn players, pianists, and composers who are constantly exploring things outside of the traditional frameworks. Guitarists tend to talk among themselves in terms of other guitarists they love: Joe Pass, Jim Hall, etc. But I'm often surprised that guitarists aren't familiar with Herbie Nichols, Elmo Hope, Walter Norris, Dave Binney, AEC... Ask any of these guitarists you mentioned about those cats and they'll do more than shrug, they'll smile and nod.
    By the way, Kurt is quite a remarkable piano player too; Elmo Hope was a big part of the puzzle for him, as were attendance at jams in Philly where Coltrane is much more present than Joe Pass.
    That strange world outside of the guitar world bubble is where you might find a lot of the answers you're looking for.

  5. #4
    I totally agree...in fact one player I think Rosenwinkel most reminds me of...the horn player he often plays with Mark Turner...
    In any case, I am looking to see if I can figure out what that harmonic vocab is all about.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by exarctly
    I totally agree...in fact one player I think Rosenwinkel most reminds me of...the horn player he often plays with Mark Turner...
    In any case, I am looking to see if I can figure out what that harmonic vocab is all about.
    Kurt and Mark, yeah that's like two sides of the same coin. They went through so much together, played their formative gigs together night after night, wrote for one another and had a working band dedicated to their own music. Both unique in a deeply fraternal way.
    As to what they are doing harmonically, Kurt's lines are very logical and his choice of scales and harmonies is very lyrical. He sings all his lines and rather than a "this is the chord and this is the scale I'll use" approach, I'd say his ear has come to know the unique properties of each scale and he employs those properties, approach notes, scale fragments, patterns and sequences in a very efficient spontaneous way.
    Maybe if you want to understand his approach you might take a transcription of a solo you really feels embodies his attitude and approach, do an in depth analysis of how he chooses his notes including where the line is leading and keeping in mind how the line interacts with the underlying harmony. Get a lead sheet if you can, it will make the complexity of his writing one step easier. Don't learn the solo and play it in your soloing though, that is a dangerous trap.
    Maybe if you want to understand his soloing, follow his process, take the time to do the hard work he did, spend a LOT of time on one scale in all its permutations and intervallic combinations, and find the unique relationship you have with that set of 7 notes. It takes time but Kurt did it and he became a unique self through it. Too many people spend their time trying to BE Kurt. I'll tell you honestly, you owe yourself your own sound. We wouldn't have Kurt to listen to and love if he didn't believe this himself.
    David
    Last edited by TH; 06-20-2011 at 08:37 AM.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    But I'm often surprised that guitarists aren't familiar with Herbie Nichols, Elmo Hope, Walter Norris, Dave Binney, AEC...
    AEC?

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by FatJeff
    AEC?
    The Art Ensemble of Chicago- a rare convergence of really creative, imaginative and generous musicians out of which came Joseph Jarmon, Don Moye, Malachai Favors, Lester Bowie, Roscoe Mitchell. I'd also mention in my list of important "out" players those that were associated with Sun Ra. John Gilmore, Marshall Allen, Billy Bang,... Back to the original point though, I guess it seems guitarists are an insular lot. There seems to be a much higher awareness of the jazz world among other instrument demographics. Horn players have a good idea of what's going on, pianists tend to be on top of harmonic explorations. The modern guitarists maybe have different ears- many of these mentioned are part of a very integrated scene in downtown, below the radar NY. Very humble, very adventurous.

  9. #8

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    Well, I'm happy to be in the minority of guitarists who primarily listen to other instruments - at least in the jazz idiom. Thanks for the new artist name collection; I've got a "note to self" to go give these guys a listen soon.

  10. #9

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    For your collection then: Donny McCaslin tenor, you can find him working with Lage, Ben Monder among others, Seamus Blake, tenor, drummer Jim Black's groups, check out BABKUS, a group with Brad Schoeppach. Dave Douglas, a trumpeter of extraordinary musical range- i particularly like his Tiny Bell trio with Jim Black and Brad Schoeppach.
    Hell, check out the Smalls website: SMALLS JAZZ CLUB 183 W. 10TH ST. NYC and they have a live streaming broadcast every night, archives of past performances and a slice of the scene's who's who. Listen for yourself and you can get a real idea of what's really happening in the Village. Smalls is where Kurt had his working band form their identity. Listen to the duo with Kurt and Dave Tronzo. It's another world from eighth notes...
    David

  11. #10

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    To play like those guys, all you have to do is...

  12. #11

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    In the mean time, go to the Smalls site tonight. Gilad Hekselman with Ari Honig playing a good lineup. Watch it in real time for free. And support the club when you're in NY. Inspiration was never so affordable!

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    To play like those guys, all you have to do is...
    transcribe?

  14. #13

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    Or not. There are more than a few ways to get inside of the music. This is a thread unto itself. Maybe I'll start one and not risk a big derailment of this thread.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    Or not. There are more than a few ways to get inside of the music.
    I'd be interested to hear what those ways are. I enjoy these players but to my ears transcribing their stuff seems the only way to understand what they are doing.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill C
    I'd be interested to hear what those ways are. I enjoy these players but to my ears transcribing their stuff seems the only way to understand what they are doing.
    I've begun a new thread on Transcribe or Not. Please weigh in with your thoughts, anecdotes or testimonials. I don't want this topic to misdirect the thread we've got here.
    David

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill C
    transcribe?
    yes, and

  18. #17

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    yeah one thing about a lot of these guys is that most of their influences are not Guitar maximized except perhaps technique. Also they have a much stronger connection go a European influence then say Guitarists from the bop influenced eras and moreso then the post bop. They really are ushering in a new era for Jazz which will eventually be coined something catchy or snappy.

    I don't mean to be an expert or anything but i've met and hung out with a few of these names that are mentioned and or have had communication with them and one of the biggest things that you'll find common between them are a love for the Tristano school of playing jazz from the earlier eras of the music... Rosenwinkel being the 'poster boy' for generation X jazz musicians/fans is a huge tristano subscriber and you can really hear it in his playing if you've looked at all at those old recordings.

    Gilad and Kreisberg both are big big big piano fans and Rosenwinkel is a very fluid and emotive pianist in his own right. Lund being European will have certain engraned musical ethics that will give him a bit of a different sound. I don't hear much Joe Pass in his playing, I hear far more Bill Evans>Keith Jarret>Brad Mehldau (who is Gilad's major influence in many ways as he told me). Adam Rogers is a very fluid and capable studio musician with a heavy classical guitar background.

    In the end they all have explored something separate from the instrument very seriously which is not wholely sunk deeply in the tradition of 'jazz guitar'. Many fans dislike jazz guitar a great deal or players don't like old jazz guitar styles but love these players.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Hanlon
    yeah one thing about a lot of these guys is that most of their influences are not Guitar maximized except perhaps technique. Also they have a much stronger connection go a European influence then say Guitarists from the bop influenced eras and moreso then the post bop. They really are ushering in a new era for Jazz which will eventually be coined something catchy or snappy.

    I don't mean to be an expert or anything but i've met and hung out with a few of these names that are mentioned and or have had communication with them and one of the biggest things that you'll find common between them are a love for the Tristano school of playing jazz from the earlier eras of the music... Rosenwinkel being the 'poster boy' for generation X jazz musicians/fans is a huge tristano subscriber and you can really hear it in his playing if you've looked at all at those old recordings.

    Gilad and Kreisberg both are big big big piano fans and Rosenwinkel is a very fluid and emotive pianist in his own right. Lund being European will have certain engraned musical ethics that will give him a bit of a different sound. I don't hear much Joe Pass in his playing, I hear far more Bill Evans>Keith Jarret>Brad Mehldau (who is Gilad's major influence in many ways as he told me). Adam Rogers is a very fluid and capable studio musician with a heavy classical guitar background.

    In the end they all have explored something separate from the instrument very seriously which is not wholely sunk deeply in the tradition of 'jazz guitar'. Many fans dislike jazz guitar a great deal or players don't like old jazz guitar styles but love these players.
    Hah, great. This post makes me feel like I'm on the right track!

  20. #19

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    Actually, there's a lot of Lage's more standard playing that has a lot of Pass in it. Standards he's recorded such as Celia or You Do Something To Me, his solos have some Pass sounding lines in there, whether he's actually making it to sound like Pass or not.

    Anyways, as far as harmonies, a great start is the Vic Juris book on Modern Chords, I made a post about this book a little while ago. It's given me a whole lot of answers on chords I've been trying to figure out what they're playing and had no idea you could do things like this. I would suggest anyone who wants to venture out in the more modern sounds to check this book out.

    Also, remember, Jazz evolves. Before transcribing tunes by Kreisberg, Rogers, Hekselman, Lund, ect, go back before them to guys such as John Scofield, Vic Juris, Joe Diorio, Pat Martino, ect. I know for a fact that as far as Kreisberg goes, there is A LOT of Pat Martino going on there.
    Or even before doing those guys, some Jim Hall must be analyzed. His book Exploring Jazz Guitar is a great help, where he talks about his tunes and analyzes them for you.

    Another thing that would help is that if you have a few bucks to spare, buy their lead sheets online. Most of these guys have online shops to buy lead sheets to their songs. Kreisberg sells his for 2-3 bucks, Adam Rogers has a 2 for 10 thing going on if I remember correctly. I'm going to invest some money in this actually.

  21. #20
    I never knew about the Tristano reference. can anyone elaborate on what is unique about his approach? Or a book or link that go into some detail.

  22. #21

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    re: Tristano, just listen to it! The music is fantastic!

    I think the most obvious element (to me at least) is the odd groupings of accents.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by exarctly
    I never knew about the Tristano reference. can anyone elaborate on what is unique about his approach? Or a book or link that go into some detail.
    Lennie Tristano was a blind pianist who started a revolutionary way of playing that redefined the dynamics of soloist and rhythm section among other things. His lines were delicate, intricate and had a different sense of swing that set his music apart from the traditional mainstream. I hear Bach when I listen to Tristano.
    He's known as much for those that came from his "family" as he is for his own music: Lee Konitz, Warne Marsh and Billy Bauer to name a few. Instead of the soloist/comping relationship, Tristano's is responsible for the simultaneous creative twining lines you hear in Bill Evans' duos with Jim Hall for instance. You know those delicate contrafacts Lee Konitz writes? That's a Tristano legacy. Do you ever solo with another player at the same time, exchanging ideas in real time, hooking into rhythmic ideas, melodies at once? That's Tristano. Familiar with Mark Turner's soloing with Kurt when you don't know just who's soloing? That's Tristano.
    Over the changes or What Is This Thing Called Love:

    Listen to Paul Desmond's work with Gerry Mulligan-listen to the way they intertwine, the use of space and lyricism:

    ...very different from soloist plays and rhythm section plays chunka chunka behind. Hope this helps-
    David

  24. #23
    Interesting. To me trios that sort of intertwine are the best. I always thought maybe Scott LaFaro was someone who helped bring that sort of piano bass conversational style. I will have to check more Tristano out.

  25. #24

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    For Rosenwinkel and Kreisberg (sounds like a German Law firm!), look into Allan Holdsworth. There's a vid on youtube where KR namechecks Holdsworth. Also, when I went to see Jonathan Kreisberg in London earlier in the year, and a journo who was chatting to JK afterwards introduced his friend who was John Marshall, drummer from the Soft Machine. Jonathan was quite vibed up about this and started enthusiastically discussing Holdsworth's time in that band.

    So there's one point of reference, though not sure how well that fit's with what's already been said?

  26. #25
    Great, now all I have to do is figure out how to play like Allan Holdsworth. Easy.
    I also saw a bio on Rosenwinkel that named George Van Eps Coltrane and Jarett as some influence... to be honest, I actually don't know much of George Van Eps. Recommendations?