The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Posts 26 to 45 of 45
  1. #26

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by exarctly
    ... to be honest, I actually don't know much of George Van Eps. Recommendations?


    Before you say "old school" listen carefully. Van eps played a 7 string and his harmonic approach is like a piano player's and though he was contemporary to a lot of bebop burners, his voicings, voice leading and substitutions are closer to Bill Evans than Joe Pass or most guitarists. This is really evident in Kurt's chordal approach. The piano player in him is always there and very strong.

    Another pianistic guitar player is Jack Pezanelli, a really great player who works with Sheryl Bailey in duo setting. Kurt studied with Jack during his time at Berklee, mostly showing each other pianistic approaches and exploring harmony in a voice leading way.
    David

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Richb
    Funny stuff - especially the prof's dumb statement. That's probably why Lage shrugged, cuz there is NO Pass really in his playing at all. I hear none.
    I agree, and I've listened to a lot of Lage...

    George Van Eps as an influence for Rosenwinkel? I think in the way he thinks of harmony not as clusters but as parallel moving lines...I hear it on "Reflections" a bunch.

    A lot of these guys are coming from a Chord-Scale background as opposed to a Arpeggio based way of viewing the fretboard (ah, the diabolical duo! Who will win! Fight to the death!) --but this does lead a player to having different "pet licks." It's also not uncommon for me to hear Lund or Rosenwinkel think "key, not chord" when navigating (Thanks Levine for that term) --really almost thinking tension and resolution as opposed to outlining every chord change...this is why I say I don't hear the Pass influence--if there was anybody who could outline changes, it was Joe...these guys aren't as concerned with that, they let the band take care of that.

    Not that the classic jazz guys aren't an influence on them...If you look at what these guys have to draw on, the pool is HUGE...and talking about Holdsworth is a big deal...In the classic era of jazz, guys were coming up being exposed to jazz and blues as "primary influences." Young guys coming up now are probably not hearing Duke Ellington as the first thing that makes them want to take up music. Nothing ever goes away completely--you hear a ton of Prog Rock stuff in Kriesberg, for example (including his love for odd times)

  4. #28

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I agree, and I've listened to a lot of Lage...

    George Van Eps as an influence for Rosenwinkel? I think in the way he thinks of harmony not as clusters but as parallel moving lines...I hear it on "Reflections" a bunch.

    A lot of these guys are coming from a Chord-Scale background
    Yes. Exactly. In my own vision of jazz guitar history I see the line between "traditional" guitarists and the moderns (young cats hanging out at Smalls) is looking at their instruments in non-grab ways. Personally, I have come to know that much of the influence on the young cats comes from sources other than guitarists. Horn players and pianists are targets of study and scrutiny. I might say that the guitar is a means for realizing elegant ideas and not an end in itself. One of the grand daddys of chord scale is Mick Goodrick and his magnum opus is a multi volume work dedicated strictly to voice leading.
    Very minimal explanation, lots of other worldly sounds. Some of it you can't even play on the guitar, and pianists love it.
    Modern players mentioned in this thread tend to see a larger world of sounds and they work hard not to let their guitars get in the way of reaching them.
    David

  5. #29
    Some excellent posts. I enjoy the conversation. This is why I love modern jazz....(though I still love traditional...does it get much better than Lester Young and Billie Holiday) but I love the open mindedness I am getting to all kinds of styles and ideas these days. I love that jazz is sort of a word that means a lot, yet it can almost seem meaningless, since jazz can sort of delve into any region it wants. And I like the guys that can do it all, but you hear some classical, funk, pop, country whatever.
    Frisell, Chris Potter, Dave Holland Quintet, Chicago Underground Trio/Quartet. Mehldau.

    The music is very rich. And I love the whole using a scale for chord voicings approach. Mixed with some of that voicing in 4ths seconds etc. But I think the idea of looking at say a CMaj7 chord as any combination of notes from a scale or mode that you like over that chord...and maybe even some odd ones... is a good idea. To me, I can her the implied harmony anyway (or someone else will play it) and I know to try to occasionally get to the third or seventh of the chord if it gets too obscure. But this way you get a lot of suspensions and upper tertians on a regular basis. And you can really just look at chords as sloing with interval combinations in the key..
    Granted, I do know that it is just one way of doing things, and occasionally you need to make sure you are grounded in the real harmony, or be able to play more traditionally as well.

  6. #30

    User Info Menu

    It's an interesting point, noting that these guys are influenced by non-guitarists. Of course, sometimes we, who grew up in the rock and roll generation and had to actually DISCOVER jazz somehow someway tend to forget that the great overwhelming majority of jazz tunes have absolutely ZERO guitar parts in them. And most people who started the jazz guitar tradition started by listening to saxophonists, trumpeters, and pianists as inspiration. Indeed, many of them probably picked up a clarinet, trumpet, trombone or saxophone FIRST before they started on guitar.

    I think many of the originals of jazz guitar were true pioneers and are sadly overlooked. I mean Jimmy Raney wasn't listening to other guitarists when he developed his personality and style. He was groovin to Bird, of course.

    You know, my teacher has been playing professionally and teaching for 57 years. As he once said, "we didn't have to 'discover jazz'. It was our music, it was all around us, we grew up with it". He's probably accomplished more musically than all of these guys mentioned in this thread-combined. He didn't even know who Kurt Rosenwinkel was until a couple of years ago, when a few of his students were telling him about him, saying they were going to check him out at the Jazz Showcase. I mentioned that the retard in the Chicago Reader practically credited Kurt with the invention of the chord melody. At this, my teacher grew indignant and just shook his head: "Unbelievable. They don't remember Joe and John!" (i.e., Joe Pass and Johnny Smith). I showed him a youtube video of Kurt playing Prelude to a Kiss, can't say he appeared to be that impressed, given that he knows that tune in his sleep and could re-harmonize it instantly 50 different ways.

    Anyway, the point is, I think many of us who love the guitar and love jazz recognize that most jazz hasn't much guitar in it. And, yet, nonetheless, we play guitar inspired by the legions of trumpet players, saxophonists, trombonists, pianists, clarinets, et al that helped define this music.

  7. #31

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I mentioned that the retard in the Chicago Reader practically credited Kurt with the invention of the chord melody. At this, my teacher grew indignant and just shook his head: "Unbelievable. They don't remember Joe and John!" (i.e., Joe Pass and Johnny Smith). I showed him a youtube video of Kurt playing Prelude to a Kiss, can't say he appeared to be that impressed, given that he knows that tune in his sleep and could re-harmonize it instantly 50 different ways.
    Sure Kurt acknowledges all those who came before him, as do all these cats. It's a given that kids of this generation, the really GOOD ones know and respect their forebears without feeling the need to whip out the yard stick.
    I think when it comes to real music, the young guys are quite humble, and I think a lot more guff comes from the older generation resenting sounds they don't understand, or don't want to listen to.
    There seems to be a break in attitude about the late 50's. It's like a fence where a some people decided to draw the line and set up camp. Wayne Shorter was one of the first beyond that line and he never denied his debt or love for the generation(s) that came before, but he was branded "Scrambled Eggs" by them.
    And when bebop was as fresh as Kurt, Binney and Frisell are today, Cab Calloway listened to the music of Parker and Gillespie and declared in a dismissive statement "Chinese Music!"

    By the way, I remember Kurt talking with great praise of Billy Bean. And it was Sco who introduced me to Billy's playing. How come people don't even remember such a great player as Billy when they wax on about those giants of the past?
    David


  8. #32

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    Anyway, the point is, I think many of us who love the guitar and love jazz recognize that most jazz hasn't much guitar in it. And, yet, nonetheless, we play guitar inspired by the legions of trumpet players, saxophonists, trombonists, pianists, clarinets, et al that helped define this music.
    While I think that is true before 1970 I am not so sure about the last 30 or 40 years.

    Jens
    Last edited by JensL; 06-23-2011 at 04:21 PM.

  9. #33
    NSJ... who is your teacher? I am also from IL...
    Honestly, I think that TruthHertz pretty much nailed it on the head. There is a problem with young guys that do not go back to the early recordings and do not listen to horn and piano players (and drummers and bassists for that matter) and there can be a problem with older cats who do not respect the innovations along the way. Granted, I respect if it is a matter of taste, and can at least understand why someone who grew up with Bird and or Pass, would not want to hear the more rock influence of today's breed.
    But I think that as I had to make effort to understand the aesthetic of older jazz music (and now on some days, I think jazz from 1930-1970 is my favorite stuff...Miles Coltrane, Bird, Ellington, Mingus, Ornette, Lester Young, Billie Holiday...can it ever really get better) maybe older people would be well off to make the same effort to understand the aesthetic of more modern playing. Jazz after all is about progress IMO. I hope as I age (I am 32 now) I will grow to like some of the inventions that will come a few decades from now...granted if they are legitimately good).

    But I think that this gets in to one of my favorite topics as a philospher/artist. The objectively vs subjectively good. In some cases I think it is fine that some people prefer one thing or another. We all do it. But in other cases I think that it is possible to be missing something or to have wrong taste. For instance, I think that some modern jazz even though it has made progress has not been good. Smooth jazz for instance. It technically is a more modern form of jazz. Also, while I like all the influences in modern drummers these days, I still dislike drummers who play too loud in the wrong setting. Sometimes I do really like good fusion like Miles 70's stuff, and maybe some Holdsworth or Scott Henderson or many others. But for the most part I think that when the drums get too loud there is a certain dynamic range and therefore groove and intensity missing. And I prefer never to hear mic'd drums if I don't have to. For instance, sometimes guys like Joey Baron and Tain Watts are too much for me. Too busy and too loud. Granted, I like Baron's playing some of the time. And it is not just about volume and busy'ness. Cause I do happen to love Elvin Jones, and sometimes Tony Williams (sometimes not so much) and I like modern drummers a lot such as Brian Blade and Ari Hoenig. All of those guys can get loud and busy, but they can also grove quietly and not so busy when they need to.

    Sorry for the tangent. My point being that sometimes it is a matter of taste, and sometimes a good ear knows that some "modern music" is not necessarily an improvement.

    For me, the point is to try to listen to everything on its own terms. Try to get into why it works and then judge that against any non negotiable objective criteria that you have. But trying to bend and reshape some of your criteria when possible to include new possibilities. This way, one can like Miles with Bird, Miles with Coltrane, Miles with Shorter, Miles with Corea,/Holland/DeJohnette/Jarrett/McClaughlin/others Coltrane with Kenny Burrell, or Coltrane with two rhythm sections. And then the best of pop classical country, world music, rock, blues, bluegrass, prog rock, indie rock, electronic, ambient etc.
    But one could also use the non-negotiable objective value side even after being open minded to say maybe some of those Miles 80's and beyond recording were not so good. Though I am still gonna try to find value in the ones with Stern and Scofield perhaps, but still.... I don't know.

    In any case, I think Truth Hertz really did say it better and more succinct.

    And I am actually experiencing a bit of a guitar renaissance. That is, I totally agree of the need to hear other instruments. There is no reason guitar players should not be a little proficient at piano, bass guitar (at least electric) and drums. The key to hearing jazz for me has to be in going beyond enjoying the soloists that you like. The music is a music of conversation and collaboration. Not like a sort of rock guitar hero type of music. One needs to be able to follow a great trio like Jarrett, or Coreas Now He Sings Now He Sobs, or Evans, or Mehldau. But my point is that I got so into hearing other instruments, and often preferring those recordings that I am only now realizing that it is still crucial to listen to a lot of guitar players too. So I am making mix CD's of modern guys I like like guys in this topic and just listening to tracks over and over again and transcribing a lick here and there, because for a while I sort of forgot about listening to guitar. Now I realize I need to mix it up, but sometimes definitely focus on the guitar players as well, as a lot of the shapes and techniques they use and whatnot are going to translate obviously very well, to the instrument they are being played on.
    At the end of the day I need influence from pairs such as Scofield, and Wayne Shorter, and Herbie Hancock. Just one example.
    Last edited by exarctly; 06-23-2011 at 01:17 PM.

  10. #34

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    For your collection then: Donny McCaslin tenor, you can find him working with Lage, Ben Monder among others, Seamus Blake, tenor, drummer Jim Black's groups, check out BABKUS, a group with Brad Schoeppach. Dave Douglas, a trumpeter of extraordinary musical range- i particularly like his Tiny Bell trio with Jim Black and Brad Schoeppach.
    Hell, check out the Smalls website: SMALLS JAZZ CLUB 183 W. 10TH ST. NYC and they have a live streaming broadcast every night, archives of past performances and a slice of the scene's who's who. Listen for yourself and you can get a real idea of what's really happening in the Village. Smalls is where Kurt had his working band form their identity. Listen to the duo with Kurt and Dave Tronzo. It's another world from eighth notes...
    David
    Sorry to revive a dead thread but I just wanted to thank TruthHertz for hipping me to the Smalls website. What a find! Hours of fascinating music at the right price.

  11. #35

    User Info Menu

    Kurt uses a lot of superimposed pentatonic stuff over different chords. he's got those long 3 note per string .pentatonic lines. there's a good masterclass on youtube of him playing through some keys.



    Jonathan Kreisberg seems to use a lot of the same type rhythmic structures in his soloing. lots of repetitive patterns. one he seems to like is (from a mixolydian mode) 1 7 5 b5 4 and moving this shape around in maj3rds.

    mike moreno is probably my fave of all of them. He's got some serious delicate and fluid phrasing. he's got all the bop stuff in order and his time is superb!
    As well as mike actually wolfgang muthspiel is pretty much all i've listened to for the last couple of months. That and Ralph Towner. WOAH!

  12. #36

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Bailz
    mike moreno is probably my fave of all of them. He's got some serious delicate and fluid phrasing. he's got all the bop stuff in order and his time is superb!
    As well as mike actually wolfgang muthspiel is pretty much all i've listened to for the last couple of months. That and Ralph Towner. WOAH!
    Yeah, I like Mike's playing a lot.

    Any of you East Coasters hip to George Muscatello? Kind of in the same vein, but not recorded enough!

    Here's cool video:
    Last edited by marcwhy; 08-27-2011 at 10:16 AM. Reason: update w/ video

  13. #37
    Thanks for the info Bailz.

    I need to get into Moreno. But I do really like Muthspiel. He has some really cool phrases and uses rhythm in a way I really like.

  14. #38

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by exarctly
    Thanks for the info Bailz.

    I need to get into Moreno. But I do really like Muthspiel. He has some really cool phrases and uses rhythm in a way I really like.
    Yeah, right on -- Wolfie's one of my favorites. Great album with him and Goodrick on Wolfie's label -- a must-have, IMO.

  15. #39

    User Info Menu

    im rocking muthspiels solo album at the mo. Love that album. he's got a pretty serious classical background as well. the MGT album with ralph towner and slava grigoryan is monstrous as well.

    I recently heard the opening track from an album with maria pia de vito . album is verso and the song is called renewal and I LOVE the melody.

  16. #40

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by marcwhy
    Yeah, right on -- Wolfie's one of my favorites. Great album with him and Goodrick on Wolfie's label -- a must-have, IMO.
    Speaking of Mick duos, he just played a duo with Pat Metheny. Did anyone go to that concert/clinic in CT earlier this week?

    Mick. If you ever need a sideman to make you look and sound amazing, he's the one. Not that Pat or Wolfie ever needed him to do that .
    David

  17. #41

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    You know, my teacher has been playing professionally and teaching for 57 years. As he once said, "we didn't have to 'discover jazz'. It was our music, it was all around us, we grew up with it". He's probably accomplished more musically than all of these guys mentioned in this thread-combined. He didn't even know who Kurt Rosenwinkel was until a couple of years ago, when a few of his students were telling him about him, saying they were going to check him out at the Jazz Showcase. I mentioned that the retard in the Chicago Reader practically credited Kurt with the invention of the chord melody. At this, my teacher grew indignant and just shook his head: "Unbelievable. They don't remember Joe and John!" (i.e., Joe Pass and Johnny Smith). I showed him a youtube video of Kurt playing Prelude to a Kiss, can't say he appeared to be that impressed, given that he knows that tune in his sleep and could re-harmonize it instantly 50 different ways.
    You realize this story does not have the impact you are hoping for without revealing who your teacher is right? Honestly, it wouldn't make a difference to me as I'll continue to enjoy Kurt's music once you've revealed this great master's secret identity but it would help to give your anecdote some legitimacy.

  18. #42

    User Info Menu

    You can go to My Music Masterclass - Home - Music Lessons From Your Heroes and check out some lessons by Hekselman, Lund, Kreisberg, and Rogers. I've only seen the previews, but so far, it looks fantastic. I guess the other option is to take lessons with them.

  19. #43

    User Info Menu

    Yes! Kurt loves Holdsworth and If I heard correctly, one of his fav records is Metal Fatigue.

  20. #44

    User Info Menu

    But I also heard that one of his fav records is OPENING NIGHTS by Kevin Eubanks

  21. #45

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mwilliams
    You can go to My Music Masterclass - Home - Music Lessons From Your Heroes and check out some lessons by Hekselman, Lund, Kreisberg, and Rogers. I've only seen the previews, but so far, it looks fantastic. I guess the other option is to take lessons with them.
    Have you SEEN the lineup for this summer's Alternative Guitar camp? Study with the Who's Who of modern guitar and hear concerts every night.
    Rosenwinkel, Lund, Adam Rogers, Kreisberg, Hekselman-screen-shot-2022-07-18-7-09-21-am-png
    Lessons and master classes in one place. Just putting the PSA out there.