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I haven't given up entirely, I hope I might get it one day, but try as I may, I just don't get anything from listening to Joe Pass. Sure, what he did was incredibly difficult, but I don't get any emotion from it. Even the amazing CM stuff, far superior to what Wes did technically, but not as moving, or exciting.
It's not that I'm more into simpler "bluesy" players, I don't really dig Green or Burrell that much either. I think I listen to too much horn jazz which kinda sets the bar impossibly high for guitarists who lack the dynamic/expressive control of other instruments (in Jazz at least).
But then, I dig some C.C, lotsa Django, some Benson and nearly all Wes. Apart from a bit of Raney and Kessel, Clint Strong and a couple of the newer bop inspired Swedish and Dutch cats, I find it hard to be inspired by many guitarists, especially guys descendent of Pass or Martino, who seem to be a huge influence on lotsa modern players.
I already know that most of you won't concur with these thoughts, but am happy to read any comments you'd like to offer, maybe even recommendations to make me reconsider...?Last edited by princeplanet; 04-25-2011 at 12:02 PM.
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04-25-2011 09:17 AM
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I think you like what you like.
JP is someone whose talent I have utmost respect for, but there's very few Pass records I put on regularly...
You might consider his duo records with Ella, they're pretty great, as well as a Duo he did with JJ Johnson (record's name escapes me right now, maybe "together again?")
Don't ever feel embarrassed, ashamed, or apologetic for what you like.
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There are many many players that are considered jazz great that I don't really connect with. Some of it will probably not change, but some will, there are a lot of players it took me really long before I started to dig!
Originally Posted by princeplanet
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wow, i'm stunned. If you can listen to Joy Spring and not be moved, I don't know what to say.
Amazon.com: Joy Spring: Joe Pass: Music
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I feel the same way. For the most part Joe Pass has never done anything for me, but I do like the album In Hamburg a lot. Some killer solos on that one.
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This is it in a nutshell. I have a tough time with some of greats. I've never "gotten" DiMeola or Gambale. I'm not a huge Pat Martino fan. I'm sure he doesn't care so why should anybody else? I hear the notes, the chops and yet they don't touch me. I have a few JP records and they don't get the play that my Wes records get or my Johnny Smith, Howard Roberts, Doug Raney or Jim Hall records either. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I think you like what you like.
...................Don't ever feel embarrassed, ashamed, or apologetic for what you like.
If somebody else doesn't understand your taste, who cares? It's like telling someone they don't "get" it because they don't like ice cream. Listen to what you really love...it will make your playing better.
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Okay, but what if after listening to Joe Pass, you still think sometimes he recorded with a terrible tone, and played 10 notes where 5 would have sufficed?
He's an important player in jazz guitar history, for sure, but just because someone's important doesn't mean you have to like everything they recorded.
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I would say you're listening to the wrong recordings. Listen to Joy Spring. Absolute Classic. If after listening to him, transcribing him, and groking what he had to say you prefer to channel wes or benson, that's fine but you should never "give up" on a universally acclaimed improviser until you have given him some due. Remember, many folks hated coltrane and monk and thought their music was absolute rubbish. I'm sure if there were internet forums back in those days folks would be talking trash about them. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Many times when folks pipe in they think wes had no chops or jimi plays out of tune, I realize that folks just haven't listened deeply enough.
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Well, Jack, I do own about 20 JP CD's...I'm playing devil's advocate a little bit (Joy Spring is a good one, btw) But I'm also not exaggerating to say that Joe doesn't make my top 10 as faves to listen to.
But there's still probably more JP out there I don't enjoy than stuff I do. I've heard enough jazz to be able to make that distinction.
When you're starting out, you can learn from anybody you listen too...I don't see any reason into forcing yourself to listen to something you don't enjoy. Now I'm not saying the OP shouldn't keep trying to listen to Joe Pass, as there is a TON of stuff he can learn from it...but I also don't think he has to feel strange or apologize for not digging what he's heard. I think most players in time come to the conclusion of "It's not as much that I don't like it at all as it is that I don't like all of it."
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Buddy Bolden was incapacitated by mental illness in 1907. There are no existing recordings of him playing. Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian
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But you're assuming I haven't heard enough Pass to judge his worth. At any rate, I'm not even judging his "worth", just saying I don't especially enjoy listening to him. It's not that the complexity is above me, after all I studied 20th century composition at uni for years, Bartok, Hindemith, Shoenberg, Berg etc. Infact I can recall fellow students declaring they still preferred Debussy over Schoenberg, even though they became quite knowledgeable of the latter, who is considered "standard repertoire" for the serious composer. The point being that to understand something doesn't always lead to an enjoyment of it, unless it's the "enjoyment of the understanding"- if you know what I mean... Originally Posted by jzucker
I do appreciate your point of view though, as I'm interested in hearing why Pass has so many devotees.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
Isn't the obvious answer that many guitarists are awed by his technical chops, in a way that non-guitarists may not get.
When I was younger, I was blown away by Al Di Meola -- those machine gun muted lines. I played the Casino LP to a non-guitarist friend and he said, "meh [or whatever people said before 'meh' was invented], just sounds Spanish to me".
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I misspoke. What I meant to say was that I was aware of him and his part of the history of music and that I had studied that history using him and Sun Ra as stylistic polar opposites as an example of my response to the "knowledge" part of the discussion. Good catch and thank you for pointing that out. Originally Posted by monk
Last edited by Flyin' Brian; 04-25-2011 at 12:46 PM.
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I've always thought that JP was a very "cold" player. To make things worse, his tone (on recordings at least) is horrible. I have great respect for his technical skill, and I'll use anything I can learn from him, but I admit that I just can't listen to him for pleasure.
Just because some one is "good" or "great", doesn't mean you have to like or love them.
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Yeah I'm not too big on Di Meola, he can write some beautiful melodies ("Silent Story In Her Eyes") but I've never heard a solo from that I got anything out of. For example his version of Chick Corea's "Señor Mouse" from Casino is great with the rhythm and the way he plays the melody, but his solo completely ruins the mood and says nothing. That and his ego-maniacal personality pretty much turn me off from him. As for Joe Pass I love his playing, though I have to say it's more awe at his bop technical mastery than anything. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Last edited by Extrapolation; 04-25-2011 at 03:00 PM.
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Just wanted to add that I used Wes and JP in the title of this thread quite intentionally to highlight the difference I feel towards both, particularly as there is a poll going on in this forum where the two of them are neck and neck, and head and shoulders above the other "also rans".. Originally Posted by jzucker
Anyway, listening again to Joy Spring which I have, almost made me smile, but not quite. I blame Wes, I just prefer his melodicism and invention, melodic, harmonic and rhythmic, in his solos. Wes, like JP, could also rip out a bar or 2 of 16ths from time to time , but it was never just gratuitously running formulaic patterns, it was for an emotional effect, as sort of exclamation mark used sparingly. He had chops, but eschewed them for melody, it seems IMHO.
He just always makes me smile, as well as makes it hard for me to dig many other fine players! So I wonder if we fall into 2 general categories, us Jazz guitar players, JP or Wes lovers?.... or can we be both? or even neither?Last edited by princeplanet; 04-25-2011 at 01:10 PM.
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and mr beaumont, I differentiate someone who's been playing jazz for dozens of years vs someone who's trying to learn to play over satin doll and basic harmony. Basically, I believe that students should have open minds towards everything and not to "decide" everything ahead of time. It's ok to have preferences of course but political correctness aside (i.e. we all know it's just fine and dandy to like whatever you like) jazz guitar students should study joe pass, PERIOD.
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I agree. Originally Posted by jzucker
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well, like I said up the top, I'm trying to not ignore him and am glad to be reminded that some of his alt dom ideas are probably worth checking out, but do you really think he had the hippest alt dom ideas? Just wondering... Originally Posted by jzucker
wes will always be my favorite of that era but to ignore pass because you don't get him is your fault and your loss. (not speaking to any one person but in general)
OTOH, these forums are mostly just popularity contests with everyone congratulating themselves on how unique and different all 50,000 of them are.
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huh? I didn't say he had the hippest alt-dominant ideas. I would give that acclaim to Frank Gambale. For the bop guitar pedagogy, Joe Pass was an important step - Particularly in assimulating whole tone, melodic minor and diminished scales over altered chords.
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ok, you got me wondering about Gambale now, another one that's eluded me. Any specific recordings you'd recommend? Originally Posted by jzucker
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there's a trio thing he did on acoustic guitar. Also do a search on youtube. There's a ton of recordings of him playing a GB10! Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Here's some worthwhile gambale. Note, some of this stuff is a little cheezy but the lines he plays are not.
Amazon.com: frank gambale
Amazon.com: Passages: Frank Gambale: Music
Amazon.com: Raison D'Etre: Frank Gambale: MP3 Downloads
Amazon.com: Brave New Guitar: Frank Gambale: MP3 Downloads
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Natural High, 2006 Originally Posted by jzucker
That record totally changed my mind about Gambale. Very cool stuff on that!
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04-25-2011, 02:44 PM #25Baltar Hornbeek Guest
Maybe, for fun, we can flesh this out a little more.
Would it be interesting for people to post youtube examples of Pass at his worst, and at his best? You guys seem to be a mature group, I don't think any feelings will get hurt and I know I'll learn a lot.
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