View Poll Results: Past or Present...which era are you living in?

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269. You may not vote on this poll
  • I dig 'old school' jazz!

    124 46.10%
  • I dig 'contemporary' jazz!

    24 8.92%
  • I dig both equally!

    121 44.98%
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  1. #1

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    Are you 'old school', 'new school' or a little bit of both?

    I know there will be argument about players that some feel straddle the line between both eras but for simplicity's sake lets say:

    Old School= Wes, Kessel, Ellis, etc
    New School= Metheny, Kreisberg, Rosenwinkel, etc.


    ***EDIT: The first two poll options should be read as 'I mainly dig...' as that seems more accommodating.
    Last edited by Jazzpunk; 03-15-2011 at 04:58 PM.

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  3. #2

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    As far as the era I live in, it's now. The music? I dig it all, though I definitely lean more towards old school. That's changing a bit these days as I try to broaden my musical horizons.
    Barney Kessel was asked, “What’s the hardest thing about studio work?” He replied, “Finding a parking place.”
    "I don't know what other people are doing - I just know about me."- Thelonious Monk

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by paynow View Post
    As far as the era I live in, it's now. The music? I dig it all, though I definitely lean more towards old school. That's changing a bit these days as I try to broaden my musical horizons.
    Don't forget to vote! The options can be read 'I mainly dig...' if that helps.
    Last edited by Jazzpunk; 03-15-2011 at 04:16 PM.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzpunk View Post
    Don't forget to vote!
    Didn't notice that. Will do.
    Barney Kessel was asked, “What’s the hardest thing about studio work?” He replied, “Finding a parking place.”
    "I don't know what other people are doing - I just know about me."- Thelonious Monk

  6. #5

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    Definitely both...I love playing and arranging the oldies, but my writing is a bit more modern, I think...and I really love listening to the modern stuff...but i'? Not putting away my jimmy raney discs either!
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  7. #6

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    1960:

    Build bridges, not walls.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Definitely both...I love playing and arranging the oldies, but my writing is a bit more modern, I think...and I really love listening to the modern stuff...but i'? Not putting away my jimmy raney discs either!
    I like your playing a lot Jeff!

    Do you dig Doug Raney as well? 'Cuttin' Loose' and 'Introducing Doug Raney' are great albums imo.

  9. #8

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    I'm definitely in the old school camp. This week, I'm learning another Charlie Christian solo and working in the Mickey Baker book---doesn't get much more old school than that!
    I grew up on rock / blues / metal. Nearly all the records I bought by people still alive, and a large percentage of them were under 30. I used to review records and sometimes received 30-50 records a month to sort through. One day I thought, "I never have time to listen to music I already like." So I quit reviewing records. I've never missed it. I'm sure there are lots of great players around now but I feel no urge to keep up. Learning the things I love that I can learn keeps me happy.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzpunk View Post
    I like your playing a lot Jeff!

    Do you dig Doug Raney as well? 'Cuttin' Loose' and 'Introducing Doug Raney' are great albums imo.

    Yes! Big fan of Doug. I absolutely love the stuff he did with chet baker.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  11. #10

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    At 64 I've been around for a lot of music, starting with listening to my Dad's big band and "race" records when I was still in single digits. I'm a big Metheny, Kreisberg, Sco, Frisell etc fan, as well as Wes, Burrell, Johnny Smith and so on, so the long winded answer is both.

  12. #11

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    old school man old school...

    wes...pass...roberts...farlow...ellis...kessell... bikert...byrd...smith...van eps...

    time on the instrument man...pierre

  13. #12

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    You may want to listen to some of Dougs' other cd releases. My Favorites are "Back In New York" and "You Go To My Head". Both are made up from old standards and are well done.

    wiz
    Last edited by wizard3739; 03-15-2011 at 09:59 PM.
    Howie

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by wizard3739 View Post
    You may want to listen to some of his other cd releases. My Favorites are "Back In New York" and "You Go To My Head". Both are made up from old standards and are well done.

    wiz
    Thanks Wizard, I will definitely check those out!

  15. #14

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    I voted for and enjoy both but definitely lean toward the old school, ie Jimmy Raney, Ed Bickert, Howard Roberts, George Van Eps, etc....

    wiz
    Howie

  16. #15

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    I cross over quite a bit. I love the old standards, and I love how many of the newer players arrange and interpret them. I love Jesse van Ruller doing End of a Love Affair and Goodbye, Kreisberg doing Autumn in New York, Rosenwinkel doing You Go to My Head. Lionel Loueke doing Skylark and Benny's Tune. Etc. These new interpretations of these great songs really mix nostalgic with innovative. Great stuff.
    Best regards,
    Matt

  17. #16

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    both:

    i was on the 3rd row.




    2 nights later i was on the 4th row, at UCLA.

  18. #17

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    Inspirate by the oldies for playing more comtempory.

    Jimmy Raney fan, too. he has a vintage sound, but harmonically modern.
    The album "touch of your lips" is my favorite of Chet.(w/NHOP and Doug Raney).

    We don't talk enough about Marc Ribot.
    He has a modern and versatile game , which isn't close to Metheny, Rosenwinkel,....

  19. #18

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    I voted "both". I'm not even a "pure" jazz fan. 90% of what I listen to is jazz but I'm just as likely to play blues or rock.

    Standards aren't standards because Miles played them. They survive because of the strength of the composition. I'm more likely to play "Aqualung" by Jethro Tull because it's a better composition than anything Ben Monder ever wrote.

    A lot of "new school" players are in such a hurry to get to their altered-modally-inspired Berklee solos that they don't want to "waste" time writing the song first. Much as I like Rosenwinkel's playing, I can't remember the "tune" to any of his songs. In fairness, I think James Muller has written some good simple tunes which can stand on their own, without his solo.

    Take a song like "Chank" by Scofield. Anyone from my generation can tell you that's just a stolen BarKays riff, yet Scofield gets a writer's credit for it.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Banksia View Post
    I voted "both". I'm not even a "pure" jazz fan. 90% of what I listen to is jazz but I'm just as likely to play blues or rock.

    Standards aren't standards because Miles played them. They survive because of the strength of the composition. I'm more likely to play "Aqualung" by Jethro Tull because it's a better composition than anything Ben Monder ever wrote.

    A lot of "new school" players are in such a hurry to get to their altered-modally-inspired Berklee solos that they don't want to "waste" time writing the song first. Much as I like Rosenwinkel's playing, I can't remember the "tune" to any of his songs. In fairness, I think James Muller has written some good simple tunes which can stand on their own, without his solo.

    Take a song like "Chank" by Scofield. Anyone from my generation can tell you that's just a stolen BarKays riff, yet Scofield gets a writer's credit for it.

    "A lot of "new school" players are in such a hurry to get to their altered-modally-inspired Berklee solos..."

    I think that's funny.

  21. #20

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    I think this dichotomy is a function of the 'time filter'..... the reason so much of the old school stuff sounds so good is that the OS stuff that was mediocre has fallen into obscurity - the chaff has already been separated from the wheat... it's just like any genre of music - the current crop includes all the guys that aren't interesting, one-hit wonders, derivative hacks, etc. Like someone said upthread, the music of this generation will be defined by the best players, especially if there is a defining, iconic individual. My kids will look back at the music recorded in the last decade or two and only see the best of what has survived the cut - the stuff that influenced people enough to get copied, consistently listened to, adapted into whatever is going to be going on twenty years from now.....

    That being said - I like melody. I like 'beauty' in music - whatever that means to me - and think that music, or art in general, that isn't immediately accessible to an uninitiated public at a pretty basic level is doomed to niche-bound auto-cannabalism and eventual death due to inbred deficiencies in creative appeal. I think jazz could be heading that way if contemporary players can't figure something out.....to a certain extent, 'hard' jazz is already there - musicians playing for other musicians or for people who have developed an acquired taste..... the fine line between listenable and noise...... I dunno....

  22. #21

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    Jazz is about learning from the past, but playing on the cutting edge. So I dig both old and new.
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  23. #22

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    Aaa! I have just wondered this thing by myself, and this came just in time!
    Parker, Pass, Farlow & Raney - guys who have taught me the secret language of Bebop!

    Wait!
    Yesterday I found myself on Amazon.co.uk ordering four Methenys mindblowing records ( Still Life, Offramp, Bright Size Life and Trio Live)! Bit scary at first, but I realized that my ear has opened up to listen the music as a spoken language/phrases and I really found cool stuff in the way Metheny express himself as player. Not the same language as the Bobber-guys, but wery exciting! I´m not going to left my old profets, just going to widen up a bit of my vocabylary!

    -Petri

  24. #23

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    Mostly old school - or should I say that my musical taste needs archeological excavations to be revealed? The last couple of years I have been practicing acoustic rhythm guitar a la Freddie Green which is actually great fun. Right now as I write this I am listening to 1939 recordings with Jack Teagardens Big Band with Allan Reuss on guitar (acoustic Gibson L5). BTW, Jack Teagarden is my favorite trombonist.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop View Post
    Jazz is about learning from the past, but playing on the cutting edge.
    Well said Doc!

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzpunk View Post
    Comparing Ben Monder to Jethro Tull is pretty silly imo. I don't know anyone besides aging hippies who even listen to Jethro Tull. This doesn't diminish their talent or accomplishments in anyway but I don't see the value in pitting them against Ben Monder. Apples to oranges imo.

    You say you voted 'both' but it's clear from your rant that you have a beef with the younger players on the scene. Who are the modern guys that you actually like?
    Whoa! I like Tull and while I'm middle-aging, I'm not a hippy.

    I see your point, however. I love Monder, but to me he is a guitarist's guitarist, musician's musician, etc. If I was trying to turn someone on to jazz and we went to see a guitarist it would be someone like Burell, not Monder, Moreno, et al. I'd want it to be more accessible, and even then it would probably be an uphill battle. For me personally? I love those guys because I recognize they are trying to push boundaries, even if they don't write hummable ditties.
    Barney Kessel was asked, “What’s the hardest thing about studio work?” He replied, “Finding a parking place.”
    "I don't know what other people are doing - I just know about me."- Thelonious Monk

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by paynow View Post
    Whoa! I like Tull and while I'm middle-aging, I'm not a hippy.

    I see your point, however. I love Monder, but to me he is a guitarist's guitarist, musician's musician, etc. If I was trying to turn someone on to jazz and we went to see a guitarist it would be someone like Burell, not Monder, Moreno, et al. I'd want it to be more accessible, and even then it would probably be an uphill battle. For me personally? I love those guys because I recognize they are trying to push boundaries, even if they don't write hummable ditties.
    Oh yeah, what's that tie dye mouse pad doing on your desk than?!

    I agree with all of your points above. Burell was the player that lured me down the rabbit hole and while I've grown to appreciate a wide spectrum of artists, he still remains high on my list!

  28. #27

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    Whoa! I like Tull and while I'm middle-aging, I'm not a hippy.
    Didn't they have a tune called 'Living in the past'

    how apt

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu View Post
    Didn't they have a tune called 'Living in the past'

    how apt
    So anyone who:

    A. Likes anything from more than five minutes ago
    B. Likes anything you don't like

    Is living in the past? Interesting.
    Barney Kessel was asked, “What’s the hardest thing about studio work?” He replied, “Finding a parking place.”
    "I don't know what other people are doing - I just know about me."- Thelonious Monk

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by pierre richard View Post
    old school man old school...

    wes...pass...roberts...farlow...ellis...kessell... bikert...byrd...smith...van eps...

    time on the instrument man...pierre
    Amen on that one, bro. I may have been born in 1950 but I seem to be stuck somewhere from the 30's through a lot of the cool period of the 60's.

    "A lot of "new school" players are in such a hurry to get to their altered-modally-inspired Berklee solos..." said fumblefingers.

    This I feel is also very true. When I solo, I try to be as melodic as possible without being boring. The heavy altered stuff tends to get me agitated. Listen to Chet Baker, Clifford Brown, and a bunch of big band horn players. They tend to keep the solos great without all of the dissonance. Just my opinion.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop View Post
    Jazz is about learning from the past, but playing on the cutting edge.
    I'm not so sure of that. Jazz is enormous---a century old and world wide. It's too much to encapsulate in a single style. It's one thing if you are young and looking to make a name for yourself, but if you're playing mainly for your own enjoyment (-and maybe a gig now and then), then playing what you love best, even if older than you are, is, um, "a lovely way to spend an evening." Or a life, for that matter.

    The "cutting edge" in music stopped being jazz about fifty years ago. The cutting edge is hip hop, I guess. They don't even *have* guitar players! )
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by markerhodes View Post

    The "cutting edge" in music stopped being jazz about fifty years ago. The cutting edge is hip hop, I guess. They don't even *have* guitar players! )
    Yeah, that's why I may switch to trombone. I need the work.
    Barney Kessel was asked, “What’s the hardest thing about studio work?” He replied, “Finding a parking place.”
    "I don't know what other people are doing - I just know about me."- Thelonious Monk

  33. #32

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    Nah, don't go to the trombone. There's no place to anchor the strings and that big loop on the end keeps sliding out of place.

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzpunk View Post
    Comparing Ben Monder to Jethro Tull is pretty silly imo. I don't know anyone besides aging hippies who even listen to Jethro Tull. This doesn't diminish their talent or accomplishments in anyway but I don't see the value in pitting them against Ben Monder. Apples to oranges imo.

    I recall that I was referring to their songwriting abilities, in which case my original statement stands.

    You say you voted 'both' but it's clear from your rant that you have a beef with the younger players on the scene.

    I don't have a beef with any younger players but I also don't live in some pure jazz "Field of Dreams" where, if they release it, I'll buy it. As a jazz lover and, as a consumer. I'm entitled to say, "That album doesn't do anything for me. I'm not going to buy it."

    Who are the modern guys that you actually like?

    From the last decade I own and enjoy lots of albums:
    Rosenwinkel: Deep Song, Remedy, Standards Trio:Reflections
    Kevin Eubanks: Zen Food
    John 5:Remixploitation
    Bobby Broom plays Monk
    Maciek Grzywacz: Fourth Dimension
    Mike Stern: Big Neighbourhood
    Wayne Krantz: Krantz Carlock Lefevre
    Robbie Ameen: Days in the Life - Krantz on gtr.
    Buckethead: Slaughterhouse on the Prairie, Population Override
    Frisell: History Mystery, Frisell/Carter/Motian, Further East/Further West
    Gambale: Resident Alien, Made in Australia
    Jimmy Herring: Lifeboat
    Paul Gilbert: Silence followed by a deafening Roar
    Rudresh Mahanthappa's Indo-Pak Coalition: Apti
    Stanley Jordan: State of Nature
    Frank Vignola: plays Gershwin
    James Muller: Thrum, All Out
    Kreisberg: South of Everywhere, New for Now
    Stanley Clarke: The Toys of Men
    Scofield: This meets that, En Route
    Al Dimeola: Consequence of Chaos
    Andy Timmons: Resolution
    Chad Wackerman: Legs Eleven w/J Muller gtr
    Dave Douglas and Bill Frisell: Strange Liberation
    Corey Christiansen: Awakening
    Matthias Ecklund: Freak Guitar - the Road less travelled
    Los Dorados: Vientos del Norte
    Prasanna: Be the Change
    Will Bernard: Directions to my house.
    Guthrie Govan: Erotic Cakes
    Jim Campilongo: Heaven is creepy
    Liberty Ellman: Ophiucus Butterfly
    Russell Malone: Live at Jazz Standard
    Jonas Hellborg: Kali's Son
    Bumblefoot: Normal

    Actually that's just the last 6 years and I've left out any new albums by over-60s (Holdsworth, McLaughlin. Not sure how old Scofield is.) and any reissues during that time.
    ...................

  35. #34

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    Excellent list Banksia, some great albums on there!

    It was hard to tell why you voted for 'both' from your original post as your comments about the modern scene were fairly negative (with the exception of your comments about Muller). The post above paints a much better picture of where you are coming from.

    Per the 'field of dreams' comment, I don't like every new album that comes out either though I do like a lot of modern jazz. Some that didn't make your list would be Brian Blade, Muthspiel, Chris Crocco, Adam Rogers, Chris Potter, Mike Moreno, Jesse Van Ruller and on and on. Way to many talented cats out there to mention!

    Jethro Tull vs. Ben Monder is still apples to oranges to me but it's all good.
    Last edited by Jazzpunk; 03-17-2011 at 12:57 AM.

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu View Post
    Didn't they have a tune called 'Living in the past'

    how apt
    Oh yes. Have been living there myself for decades. Nice place to live. You should try it one of these days.

  37. #36

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    I'll go along with Banksia...it's all in the labelling
    Ian Anderson's "Secret Language of Birds" is one of my recent faves

    I've also got an issue with the 'Jazz Standards' syndrome...
    When I went to audition for the Jazz Studies course at Sydney Con, I'd
    rehearsed a xylophone & drum duet of a Zappa piece with our drummer
    (I also play mallets)
    The guy said " You can't play Zappa, that's not jazz!"
    He then said "A xylophone's not a jazz instrument!"

    So...it sorta left me with a bad impression of 'stick in the mud' jazzers
    IMO Zappa wrote a bunch of great 'Jazz Standards'
    Twenty Small Cigars and Blessed Relief are two that come to mind

    I realised later I should've gone for the Orchestral Percussion course
    The classical dudes seem much more hip than the jazzers (at Sydney con)

  38. #37

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    Old school - late 50's, early 60's hardbop.
    Working through KB's Soul Call right now.

  39. #38

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    Probably more old school, back when songs were actually played and the melody wasn't buried or blurred by the soloist's ego.

  40. #39

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    I'm into 50's-60's... some early some contemporary too. Voted old school.
    "Peace! Peace! Supplant the doom and the gloom! Turn off what is sour! Turn into a flower and BLOOM! BLOOM! BLOOM!"

  41. #40

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    I love Jethro Tull. I want to learn to play rock and roll. I'm getting tired of these standard tunes.

  42. #41

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    Actually I voted for both. There are many outstanding players in the older generations and there are many outstanding players in the more recent generations. Compositionally, I don't hear anything nearly as beautiful or infinitely challenging as the old standards though! The players like Joe Diorio, Jim Hall or Mick Goodrick are the most interesting, IMO. Traditional jazz sound and ultra-modernism in ideas.

  43. #42

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    Man, I haven't thought about Jethro Tull in decades, but this thread reminds me of how many of their records I enjoyed as a kid: Aqualung, Thick As A Brick, Living In The Past, and I forget the names of the rest. Well, let's bungle in the jungle!
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  44. #43
    to me, the whole idea of jazz is taking what's current and making grooved, improvised music around it.

    I love what Tony Grey and Matt Garrison are doing. Wayne Krantz and Chris Potter too. However, there is much to learn from the old masters. I think it's worth revisiting the roots now and then (as I'm currently doing). I think it adds depth to your musicianship. To me, Wynton is the epitome of this.

  45. #44

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    I like all good music...not only jazz.
    old school..new school...roots...blues...etc

    somebody told : "if you do not feel easy blues you will not understead jazz"

  46. #45

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    Modern for all instruments including guitar. Old school for all instruments but guitar is very much in the minority.
    David

  47. #46

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    Love modern, but always go back to standards. I go back and forth. Watching a Johnny Mercer PBS special as I type this. Man he was a genius composer.

  48. #47

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    i enjoy both traditional and contemporary jazz. i can appreciate a good melody and nice groove in just about any genre of music.

  49. #48

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    The old stuff for me.
    "As for me, all I know is that I know nothing." - Socrates
    “Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun.” - Alan Wilson Watts

  50. #49

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    I dig almost all music... last weekin I played a gig with a DJ, who played pre-recorded shit, an elect. keyboard bass... the big low stuff, a synth and a tpt. It was mainly all young people, very loud... hip-hop and trance etc... I had a blast... lots of groovin and shreddin,(I'm old school, burnnin). Audience was really into it,( I think there were influential factors...). Last night I played with gig with Big Band, Thursday I'm gigging with B-3 and Drums... almost all Wes tunes, (one of my favorites)... and Friday I'm playing an outdoor festival with my brothers... old school R&B, funk etc... as far as a listener... I can listen to jazz for ever. I can enjoy almost any music for a while... but usually get bored...

  51. #50

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    I prefer old school,better than contemporany Jazz.
    The sound of this old guitars are magic and the way that they played.
    Today the musicians are looking more for virtousismus,and I don´t know exactly where is the limit or frontier between music and someone who plays very well guitar.I mean with a exceptional technics.
    In all cases it must be feeling inside,because without feeling,there is no really music(That is my personal opinion).
    Now I remember the song who had played so many people,called " Fly me to the moon".His old sound.!!!! Great.
    Last edited by Quendit; 07-05-2011 at 02:30 AM.