View Poll Results: Past or Present...which era are you living in?

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269. You may not vote on this poll
  • I dig 'old school' jazz!

    124 46.10%
  • I dig 'contemporary' jazz!

    24 8.92%
  • I dig both equally!

    121 44.98%
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  1. #51

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    Can't vote. I'm living in the next era!

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  3. #52

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    I like the old school. Jimmy Raney was the first player who got my attention, when David baker played a Buddy Defranco record in my Evolution of the Jazz Combo class at IU.

    Sometimes when I hear my playing, I think I belong to the school for the deaf!

    -Scott

  4. #53

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    I voted for contemporary jazz. It contains everything from all the music of the past, so I'm not worried about losing anything important. Music is a continuum like anything else, it has everything in it that's ever happened or going to happen.

  5. #54

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    I read a Pat Metheny (I think it was him) article slaying purism in jazz, I think he wrote it in response to Winton saying jazz is dead. I agree with whomever I am thinking of, however vaguely, that you can't be a purist and a 'jazz' musician at the same time - as soon as you limit your ears, your knowledge and start taking something as cannon law, it isn't jazz anymore, its more like classical art music. Jazz is spontaneous and open to interpretation. You should definitely learn all the vocab, bop, swing, etc. and if you love playing in those styles, do it. But don't play like its 1940 something! Play it like its today!

    I voted for contemporary - because I was born in the 1980's and I feel I lack the context of the music created before then. I listen, I'll play it, but I won't pretend to play it like it was back then.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by jster View Post
    Can't vote. I'm living in the next era!
    Good answer!

  7. #56

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    Jazz stopped being the cutting edge music 50 years ago? The cutting edge is "RAP"? RAP might be the cutting edge in record sales, but I don't think a drum MACHINE is going to cut like ELVIN JONES, or DON MOYE.(Do drum machines have SOUL?). Personally I think Jazz has been really cuttin in the last 50 years, Mingus, Ornette, Cecil Taylor, Albert Ayler, The AACM, The 70's loft scene, the 80's & 90's downtown scene. If you think Jazz is dead just check out the Vandermark 5. A lot of great creative/innovative music out there today, you just have to look for it, because the music industry has not MARKETED it for 50 years!

  8. #57

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    I disagree with the basic premise behind the question.

    It basically implies that the jazz of 50~60 years ago is exhausted of new creative opportunity and is therefore not "cutting edge" or much of anything beyond repetition and preservation of a dead language.

    Instead, I maintain that there is as much opportunity for creativity and innovation within "old school" jazz as there ever was and that most of the impetus for "contemporary jazz" is a combination of peer pressure and rock sensibilities...not a truly creative impulse nor an exploration of the cutting edge.

    Just my opinion, but there's no value in expressing an opinion unless the opinion is presented truthfully. The poll asked for preference and preference is based on opinion.
    Last edited by cjm; 02-18-2012 at 12:25 PM.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjm View Post
    I disagree with the basic premise behind the question.

    It basically implies that the jazz of 50~60 years ago is exhausted of new creative opportunity and is therefore not "cutting edge" or much of anything beyond repetition and preservation of a dead language.
    This poll is simply an opinion poll to gauge the listening tastes of the members here. It is not a condemnation of any style or era of jazz music.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjm View Post
    Instead, I maintain that there is as much opportunity for creativity and innovation within "old school" jazz as there ever was and that most of the impetus for "contemporary jazz" is a combination of peer pressure and rock sensibilities...not a truly creative impulse nor an exploration of the cutting edge.
    I agree that there is plenty of room in old school jazz to be creative but your assessment of what fuels modern jazz is pretty absurd.

    I can't think of a single relevant jazz artist out there in a modern vein who doesn't respect the masters and site them as influences. They simply choose to expand on the language and incorporate elements from the various styles of music that they have grown up with instead of pretending like they live in the 1950's.

    Guys like Brad Mehldau are a great example of modern players with incredible technique and a masterful command of the jazz language and yet who are not afraid to cover a Radiohead song. Considering that the original masters were putting their twist on the popular tunes of their day, perhaps guys like Mehldau are more 'old school' than guys who simply mimic the sounds of the past.

    I listen to Wes when I want to hear music that sounds like Wes and I listen to modern guys when I want to hear something modern. It's great as a jazz fan to have so much diversity imo.
    Last edited by Jazzpunk; 02-18-2012 at 07:02 PM.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzpunk View Post
    ...Considering that the original masters were putting their twist on the popular tunes of their day...
    "Tal Farlow meets Buddy Holley"

    "Ellis does Elvis"

    "Johnny Smith Visits Bakersfield"

    "Jimmy Rainey: Let's All do the Twist!"

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjm View Post
    "Tal Farlow meets Buddy Holley"

    "Ellis does Elvis"

    "Johnny Smith Visits Bakersfield"

    "Jimmy Rainey: Let's All do the Twist!"
    Oh wait it's the number one guitarist for the "modern jazz sucks" crowd doing a Beatles tune *gasp*! I don't think I even need to mention George Benson's name...do I? Or is he lumped in with the modern crowd as well?

    Last edited by Jazzpunk; 02-18-2012 at 09:49 PM.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzpunk View Post
    Oh wait it's the number one guitarist for the "modern jazz sucks" crowd doing a Beatles tune...]
    Of course, the series of albums Wes Montgomery did with orchestral arrangements, and that included rock covers are, not generally accepted as his jazz work, nor are they representative of what he was playing outside the studio at that time.

    Most everybody understood why he did these albums: He needed the money. But it was also understood to not be jazz.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjm View Post
    Of course, the series of albums Wes Montgomery did with orchestral arrangements, and that included rock covers are, not generally accepted as his jazz work, nor are they representative of what he was playing outside the studio at that time.

    Most everybody understood why he did these albums: He needed the money. But it was also understood to not be jazz.
    That must have been hard on Wes for the jazz police not to approve!

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzpunk View Post
    That must have been hard on Wes for the jazz police not to approve!
    Maybe. Don't know. The criticism might have been hard to take...but on the other hand the extra money probably took most of the sting out.

    And it did get him some exposure among a non jazz audience that wouldn't have heard of him otherwise.

  16. #65

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    Old school, but I have started listening to Rosenwinkel and I just got some Adam Rogers that I'm digging.

  17. #66

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    I guess I would say I like both equally. I'm a fan of Rosenwinkel's playing, but the very first introduction to jazz guitar that I had was of Grant Green. His playing is understated and simplistic, but it's that quality that makes it so elegantly beautiful.

    That said, I don't really like Scofield's work after Rough House, nor do I care for most of Pat Metheny's compositions. So I guess I tend to lean more towards old school.
    Gibson ES-175 | Gibson ES-135 | Ibanez FA-100 | Ibanez AS-80

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  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjm View Post
    Of course, the series of albums Wes Montgomery did with orchestral arrangements, and that included rock covers are, not generally accepted as his jazz work, nor are they representative of what he was playing outside the studio at that time.

    Most everybody understood why he did these albums: He needed the money. But it was also understood to not be jazz.
    Wes had a wife and six kids to feed. Before he became famous, he had to work as a welder at the Mallory factory in the daytime and play in the night to make ends meet. He had a really cruel work schedule then. When he became famous and got his Riverside contract, he didn't make a lot more money. Orrin Keepknew of Riverside Records had to tell him with tungue in cheek that before he was "a bum and broke", now he was "a star and broke - that's real progress". It was only when he switched to Verve and began to make those Creed Taylor produced pop albums, the money began to come his way. He continued to do real jazz gigs when playing live.

    I find it hard to blame him for those pop albums. How much suffering and powerty can we demand of our idols for the sake of artistic purity. Wes never drank much and never used drugs, but nevertheless he died of a heart attack only 45 years old. Though he was a heavy cigarette smoker, his earlier gruelsome work schedule may also have taken its toll on his health.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldane View Post
    I find it hard to blame him for those pop albums. How much suffering and powerty can we demand of our idols for the sake of artistic purity.
    I am in full agreement with you...my point was not that he shouldn't have made those albums -- he had a wife and kids to support and needed money. My point is simply that those albums aren't relevant to a study or analysis of jazz.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldane View Post
    Wes had a wife and six kids to feed. Before he became famous, he had to work as a welder at the Mallory factory in the daytime and play in the night to make ends meet. He had a really cruel work schedule then. When he became famous and got his Riverside contract, he didn't make a lot more money. Orrin Keepknew of Riverside Records had to tell him with tungue in cheek that before he was "a bum and broke", now he was "a star and broke - that's real progress". It was only when he switched to Verve and began to make those Creed Taylor produced pop albums, the money began to come his way. He continued to do real jazz gigs when playing live.

    I find it hard to blame him for those pop albums. How much suffering and powerty can we demand of our idols for the sake of artistic purity. Wes never drank much and never used drugs, but nevertheless he died of a heart attack only 45 years old. Though he was a heavy cigarette smoker, his earlier gruelsome work schedule may also have taken its toll on his health.
    I don't 'blame' Wes or any other jazz musician (past or present) for trying to reach a wider audience. Bobby Broom is one of my favorite jazz musicians and he's covered quite a few pop tunes in his career. Brad Mehldau (another fav) has as well.

  21. #70

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    Old, without doubt. Not just the music but the gear as well. Also clothes.

  22. #71
    Nuff Said Guest
    It always sounds better to me if you really "Love the music what you play".

    Nuff

  23. #72

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    A tough one... Some time ago I would have said contemporary. But today I will have to say both. Unless by "oldschool" you mean pre-50s which I don't listen to at all.
    This space is for rent!

  24. #73

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    I'm living & listening to the here & NOW, ya dig? If it ain't what the hepcats are listening to, then it's all squaresville, baby. I don't hear what those old cats were wailing on. That's not my bag.
    "...there are people out there violating the marijuana laws. Musicians. And I don't mean good musicians; I mean jazz musicians."
    -Harold Anslinger testifying before a Senate Committee in 1948

  25. #74

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    Don't know if this has already been mentioned but I was thinking the other day that there are things I like about both new and old jazz and I think it's been my goal to put together what really "does it" for me and try to leave out all the stuff that don't...

    For example, with older recordings I find the timbre to be so much more raw and organic sounding, and new stuff often sounds very tight, smooth, and lifeless. I think it's a combination of the recording technology but also just the way more modern musicians approach music-making. Example is Kresiberg - I think he's a phenomenal player but I find his original music practically un-listenable.

    But I love the spirit of experimentation and the greater freedom that's associated with a more modern sound. Harmonically and rhythmically there are just more options and some of the sounds - just via the notes and rhythms alone - are very exciting to me. With the old school stuff, if you get out of a certain box of vocabulary or voicings it just doesn't sound like the old school stuff, and some more traditional players and listeners have a hard time respecting newer approaches.

    But then again, the limitations within "straight ahead" can be very exciting.

    I suppose I like the harmonic and rhythmic freedom that I hear when "modern" players play the sh*t out of standards...that's probably my favorite. But the limitless perspective on composition and arrangement (and production) doesn't do it for me. So much of it (but not all of it) really does just sound like ethereal elevator music and is to me un-listenable.

    However, being honest, I do think modern jazz is often heavily influenced by various forms of rock, some classical, and sometimes those blends can really hit it out of the park, especially as I grew up listening to folk, indie rock, harder rock, etc.

    Just thinking out loud, I could probably go back and forth like this for a while. It's interesting for me to think about, sort of helps me figure out what I want to sound like.
    Oh, hi - if interested, I post a lot of playing/practice clips at www.instagram.com/JakeEstner

  26. #75

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    I'm a new school guy. Pete Bernstein is my favorite out of all. Really modern, but still stuck in the traditional.
    I also love guys such as Lage Lund, Rosenwinkel, Kreisberg, ect.

    That doesn't mean I don't like old school. Can't get anywhere without Wes haha. I also went through a whole phase where I picked up over 50 albums by all old school guys.

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci View Post
    Don't know if this has already been mentioned but I was thinking the other day that there are things I like about both new and old jazz and I think it's been my goal to put together what really "does it" for me and try to leave out all the stuff that don't...

    For example, with older recordings I find the timbre to be so much more raw and organic sounding, and new stuff often sounds very tight, smooth, and lifeless. I think it's a combination of the recording technology but also just the way more modern musicians approach music-making. Example is Kresiberg - I think he's a phenomenal player but I find his original music practically un-listenable.

    But I love the spirit of experimentation and the greater freedom that's associated with a more modern sound. Harmonically and rhythmically there are just more options and some of the sounds - just via the notes and rhythms alone - are very exciting to me. With the old school stuff, if you get out of a certain box of vocabulary or voicings it just doesn't sound like the old school stuff, and some more traditional players and listeners have a hard time respecting newer approaches.

    But then again, the limitations within "straight ahead" can be very exciting.

    I suppose I like the harmonic and rhythmic freedom that I hear when "modern" players play the sh*t out of standards...that's probably my favorite. But the limitless perspective on composition and arrangement (and production) doesn't do it for me. So much of it (but not all of it) really does just sound like ethereal elevator music and is to me un-listenable.
    I totally dig the original compositions by guys like Kreisberg, Rogers and Moreno. I do enjoy hearing them blow over standards as well but I'm glad they play mainly original tunes.

    I may have to steal your term 'Ethereal Elevator Music' next time someone asks me what I'm into!
    Last edited by Jazzpunk; 03-12-2012 at 03:37 PM.

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by jtizzle View Post
    I'm a new school guy. Pete Bernstein is my favorite out of all. Really modern, but still stuck in the traditional.
    I also love guys such as Lage Lund, Rosenwinkel, Kreisberg, ect.

    That doesn't mean I don't like old school. Can't get anywhere without Wes haha. I also went through a whole phase where I picked up over 50 albums by all old school guys.
    Bernstein is one of my favs as well. Got to see him last year with Rollins which was awesome. His trio came through town as well but I was sick and missed the show. Really hope I get another chance to see them!

  29. #78

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    Not a lot has happened in Jazz Guitar since 1963-68 - Wes ruled.

    Look at all of the incredible work done in 1963 by the likes of Wes, Burrell, Hall, Green, Hank Garland etc.

    We lost Lenny Breau.

    Joe Pass and Martin Taylor did some amazing things.

    Stochelo Rosenberg and Bireli Lagrene continue to amaze.

    But there has been nothing new to excite.

    DG
    Last edited by daveg; 04-01-2012 at 04:04 AM.

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by daveg View Post
    Not a lot has happened in Jazz Guitar since 1963-68 - Wes ruled.
    I think a lot has happened music has evolved. I think the big change is the environment, little live music, ability to do quality recording with a computer has music being made via overdub vs group, sessions being done over the internet with musicians all over the world on one tune. Small music stores disappearing, lessons online and so on. The street level of music and musicians hanging out is shrinking. In some way cool to be able to communicate with other guitars from all over the world, but not the same as one on one and swapping stories and musical ideas. I don't even hear that much about jam sessions anymore.

    I hear new players like Peter Bernstein, Adam Rogers, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Lage Lund, Gilad Hekselman, Jonathan Kreisberg, and others so Jazz guitar is progressing. I think what you are saying is not a lot playing traditional Jazz and that is true. I heard similar things in 60's-70's that no one plays Swing anymore. Music move on and thankfully we have recordings of past music and players to listen, learn, and appreciate the ground breakers they were of their day.
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  31. #80

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    old school...

    kessell...burrell...montgomery...farlow...roberts. ..ellis...smith...salvador...etc...

    time on the instrument...pierre

  32. #81

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    Who is a John Coltrane of jazz guitar?...:-)
    .................................................. ...

  33. #82

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    Could it be said that Coltrane was the Tal Farlow of the Tenor Sax....................

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by daveg View Post
    Could it be said that Coltrane was the Tal Farlow of the Tenor Sax....................
    I have some Tal Farlow CD's and I do not think so...
    Great player but .........

  35. #84

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    Old school. I respect modern stuff, I'll listen to it sometimes and really listen to is "as a musician" and gain inspiration off of it, but there's something about the old school sound that I can listen to "as a person" as well. Most of my friends drive around listening to metal and classic rock. I drive around listening to Wes, Burrell and Garner, can't get enough of that stuff.

  36. #85

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    Not one mention of John McLaughlin? I still think not only is he one of the great guitarists but his compositions are among the best of any instrumentalist.

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soclydeza View Post
    Old school. I respect modern stuff, I'll listen to it sometimes and really listen to is "as a musician" and gain inspiration off of it, but there's something about the old school sound that I can listen to "as a person" as well. Most of my friends drive around listening to metal and classic rock. I drive around listening to Wes, Burrell and Garner, can't get enough of that stuff.
    +1
    Great

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billnc View Post
    Not one mention of John McLaughlin? I still think not only is he one of the great guitarists but his compositions are among the best of any instrumentalist.
    He is great musician.I was interesdted in 70's.He's been very popular.
    My no. 1 is still John Scofield.I like his thinking and feeling.
    Look at this: Scof play exelent all kind of jazz.

  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    Who is a John Coltrane of jazz guitar?...:-)
    .................................................. ...
    Certainly John McLaughlin has aspired to be the Coltrane of guitar... that was the raison d'etre of his last album "to the one"...but has he succeeded ?

    +1 on your thoughts about Scofield, Kris.

    Sco covers an extremely wide range of styles of jazz, but keeping within his characteristic and highly recognizable range of tones and dynamics. On most days, he is stll my favourite.
    Have no secrets, hear no lies.

  40. #89

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    I don't see McLaughlin as the Coltrane of guitar, I'm not sure there is one. I like McLaughlin and saw him live back in the day and have several of his CD's and he does experiment trying to evolve his music. The thing for me Coltrane music was always full of emotion and feeling I don't hear in McLaughlin.

    Sco is great player and been listening to him since the 80's and he always plays with a lot of soul, but I don't hear the musical explorer Coltrane was. Sco takes other music and makes it Sco-ish.

    Actually if I had to choose a guitarist as been most Coltrane-ish I would say Joe Diorio. Joe is always exploring, but his soul is alway present in his playing.

    Coltrane was unique and probably best just left as a icon in Jazz history.
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by newsense View Post
    Certainly John McLaughlin has aspired to be the Coltrane of guitar... that was the raison d'etre of his last album "to the one"...but has he succeeded ?

    +1 on your thoughts about Scofield, Kris.

    Sco covers an extremely wide range of styles of jazz, but keeping within his characteristic and highly recognizable range of tones and dynamics. On most days, he is stll my favourite.
    +1

  42. #91

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    Old school, and on an archtop. I'm not a fan of jazz played on tele, although I know they're out there. It's a matter of preference. Give me the sound of a real acoustic combined with a minimalist approach to amplification, providing real not synthetic electronic sustain. I don't care for digital keyboards for the same reason. Or as they said in my day: Ain't nuthin' like the real thang bay bay.

  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop View Post
    Old school, and on an archtop. I'm not a fan of jazz played on tele, although I know they're out there. It's a matter of preference. Give me the sound of a real acoustic combined with a minimalist approach to amplification, providing real not synthetic electronic sustain. I don't care for digital keyboards for the same reason. Or as they said in my day: Ain't nuthin' like the real thang bay bay.
    Arch-tops are great instruments.
    About Tele...this is also great instrument.
    Every jazz guitarist have to try Tele...
    Joe Pass also tried Tele.

  44. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop View Post
    The thing for me Coltrane music was always full of emotion and feeling I don't hear in McLaughlin.

    Sco is great player and been listening to him since the 80's and he always plays with a lot of soul, but I don't hear the musical explorer Coltrane was. Sco takes other music and makes it Sco-ish.

    Actually if I had to choose a guitarist as been most Coltrane-ish I would say Joe Diorio. Joe is always exploring, but his soul is alway present in his playing.

    Coltrane was unique and probably best just left as a icon in Jazz history.
    I couldn't agree more. It's reasonable you'd not hear Coltrane from anyone but 'Trane, and some say any attempt of recreation is an attempt to imitate what's already been revealed.

    But on a deeper level so much of black artists personal-cultural experience between the 30's through the 70's cannot be discounted for that experience is channeled through an artists music, even evidenced in small part by many well known song titles.

    Non black players didn't share the cultural experience of black players of their time, therefore they didn't possess the same type of inner anger, some say tamed rage, being reborn through their music, IMHO.

  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop View Post
    I don't see McLaughlin as the Coltrane of guitar, I'm not sure there is one. I like McLaughlin and saw him live back in the day and have several of his CD's and he does experiment trying to evolve his music. The thing for me Coltrane music was always full of emotion and feeling I don't hear in McLaughlin.

    Sco is great player and been listening to him since the 80's and he always plays with a lot of soul, but I don't hear the musical explorer Coltrane was. Sco takes other music and makes it Sco-ish.

    Actually if I had to choose a guitarist as been most Coltrane-ish I would say Joe Diorio. Joe is always exploring, but his soul is alway present in his playing.

    Coltrane was unique and probably best just left as a icon in Jazz history.
    Joe Diorio is great but Scof in early years is much modal "Coltrane" language.

  46. #95

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    Many of my favorite guitarists are active: Kurt Rosenwinkel, Julian Lage, Nelson Veras, Adam Rogers, etc. But I love Charlie Christian, Django, Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, Lenny Breau, Ted Greene, etc.

  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch View Post
    When I went to audition for the Jazz Studies course at Sydney Con, I'd
    rehearsed a xylophone & drum duet of a Zappa piece with our drummer
    (I also play mallets)
    The guy said " You can't play Zappa, that's not jazz!"
    He then said "A xylophone's not a jazz instrument!"
    Well, he never listened to Sunflower by Milt Jackson: Sunflower - Milt Jackson : Songs, Reviews, Credits, Awards : AllMusic ! Well worth a check if you want my opinion...

  48. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by wizard3739 View Post
    You may want to listen to some of Dougs' other cd releases. My Favorites are "Back In New York" and "You Go To My Head". Both are made up from old standards and are well done.

    wiz
    It's good to see Doug getting some love on this forum since his name is rarely comes up. Do you think he is doing better financially in Europe than he would have done in New York?

  49. #98

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    Klatu, I don't know if Doug would have done better in New York, I never understood why he decided to stay in Europe. He is back in action now and playing more often. If he comes to New York, I'm going to try to see him play live.

    wiz
    Howie

  50. #99

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    Wes!!! Joe!!!! Barney!!!

    Have I dated myself enough?
    Pete Martin - just a mandolin guy but loves jazz guitar
    www.PetimarPress.com
    Www.Jazz-Mandolin.com
    Pete Plays Wes free download
    www.jazz-mandolin.com/PetePlaysWes.xht

  51. #100

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    Wood shedding Mikey Baker and coping Grant Green lines.
    Listening to a ton of Charlie Parker and tons of vocal standards. I too am a former rocker making the leap into the world of Jazz so I'm going back to where it began... well as far back as Louie, Big band swing and bebop.