John Coltrane

**aPAULo** · 04-23-2007, 12:15 PM

Ive heard some Coltrane music before but what I am looking for right now is the period when he went on those blistering speed runs. I would really appreciate names of songs that really show his speed on them. And also, I would like to know what genre of jazz that music would fall into. Thanks again.

**the unseen** · 04-23-2007, 01:08 PM

one up,one down;live at the half note has some pretty wicked stuff on it.

**aPAULo** · 04-24-2007, 08:38 AM

Ok thanks. Again song names would be helpful but albums work too. Im looking for his long, speedy lines that I have heard from him. Thanks for any help

**seanlowe** · 04-24-2007, 10:36 AM

CHeck out the tunes Giant Steps or Mr P.C tempowise they're pretty sodding blistering. These tunes played by him are still really bop to be honest, but the kinda people who listen to it tend to be post-boppers.

**the unseen** · 04-24-2007, 11:58 AM

one song on that live thing i mentioned is called one up,one down.

a review i read of this recording said this version might be his best improv captured on tape.

**MrPelicano** · 04-24-2007, 12:38 PM

One personal fave is "Song of the Underground Railroad" from the "Africa / Brass Sessions, Vol. 2" (1961). It has a really driving head followed by some great soloing.

But it seems to me that Trane took the hard bop "speed" playing about as far as it could go and his playing evolved in the direction of focusing on tone/timbre and the search for "moods" that would convey a quest for spirituality / reflectiveness. It's like he got all the testosterone out of his system and moved into a more mature phase in his later years.

You can see the same thing in the guitar world - guys spend a lot of years developing blistering speed but if it isn't in the service of creating great music then it's just a waste of time. I can still remember that period in the early 80's with all these players coming out of GIT with incredible licks and speed but nothing to say, musically. Always felt that way about Steve Vai, Tony McAlpine, Yngwie Malmsteen, et al. Skilled players but with limited artistic vision.

Let me submit, as a closing point, the great West Coast sax player Paul Desmond who once said that he purposely set out to not be Charlie Parker, and wound up being one of the most lyrically expressive players of that era, along with Stan Getz.

None of this to take away from Trane's genius - without a doubt, for me, the finest sax player of all time.

**mr. beaumont** · 04-24-2007, 01:30 PM

absolute must for speedy trane lines would be his appearance on johnny griffin's "blowing session." the saz battle on this version of "the way you look tonight" SMOKES. and in my opinion-- griffin kicks trane's butt.

**aPAULo** · 04-24-2007, 05:17 PM

Thanks for the recommendations and I will still take more songs.

I agree with you on the speed statements Mr.Pelicano. I never enjoyed that Steve Vai, Eddie Van Halen music. But Im craving this music right now for some reason. Its what I originally though jazz was.

**MrPelicano** · 05-23-2007, 04:50 PM

If you're craving speed runs then you can't go wrong with John McLaughlin, starting with his work with Miles, through the Mahavishnu days, then Shakti, and all the way up to his recent return to more "straight-ahead" jazz.

On the other hand, McLaughlin is one player whose style I have never tried to emulate, even while he has been one of my all-time favorite players. It is just too intimidating for me.

**aPAULo** · 05-23-2007, 05:37 PM

Ok cool. Ill be sure to check some of his songs out too. Thanks

**wizard3739** · 05-23-2007, 10:37 PM

I listen a lot to John Coltrane. My favorite album is: "Alternate Takes" recorded on April 1, 1959 at Atlantic Recording Studios in New York city. In my opinion, this is one of his mst lyrical albums.

best wishes.

Jazzarian · 12-09-2007, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by aPAULo

Ok cool. Ill be sure to check some of his songs out too. Thanks

Coltrane went the free noise route for the most part, after 1963. Personally, I like his earlier music, like Blue Train, Giant Steps, My Favorite Things, Coltrane Plays The Blues etc.

If what you seek is blistering sax speed, with proper "embouchure" and timing, the late Michael Brecker would be a much better example. Perhaps Brecker wasn't quite the pioneer Coltrane was, he was a much better musician, with considerably better technique than Coltrane. Oh, the old farts will say this is sacrilege, they can't bear to hear anything other than "Coltrane was the greatest".

Go to a regular guitar board, and you'll hear "Jimi Hendrix was the greatest", ad naseum. Of course, jazz musicians know much better :}

Jazzarian · 12-09-2007, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by aPAULo

Ok cool. Ill be sure to check some of his songs out too. Thanks

While we're on the subject of "jazz hype", Miles Davis was not the greatest jazz trumpeter either. Certainly Lee Morgan, Clifford Brown, Freddie Hubbard, Jon Faddis, Dizzy and Louis Armstrong would have wiped the floor with Miles.

Miles was a great composer and idea man, who did play some fine trumpet :}

**derek** · 12-09-2007, 02:01 PM

Not to mention Miles presided over several new phases of jazz, and was a pioneer in developing new direction.

He also helped launch a large number of unknown jazz musician's careers.

Jazzarian · 12-09-2007, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by derek

Not to mention Miles presided over several new phases of jazz, and was a pioneer in developing new direction.

He also helped launch a large number of unknown jazz musician's careers.

All true, but I'm sure he suffered from Hubbard Envy around 1963 or so :}

**Tung** · 12-10-2007, 04:16 PM

Trane "Live At Birdland", he can go forever on "Afro blue". "Blue Train" solo has been mentioned as one of the all time classic jazz improv, over a blues. Those would be my pick for technical virtuosity.

Jazzarian · 12-10-2007, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Tung

Trane "Live At Birdland", he can go forever on "Afro blue". "Blue Train" solo has been mentioned as one of the all time classic jazz improv, over a blues. Those would be my pick for technical virtuosity.

I'll take quality over quantity any day. Coltrane's "Sheets of Sound" were about as meaningful as a Metallica "solo", and every bit as "memorable".

Yesterday's wankers seem to be given hero status today.

Kindly compare Mike Brecker's solo on Moment's Notice from Tyner's "Infinity" CD to the Coltrane's original. No contest, not even close. And that was prior to Coltrane's free noise chinanigans.

**mr. beaumont** · 12-10-2007, 05:18 PM

well, some of those metallica solos are quite "memorable" and they fit the song they're in...it's context.

trane was blowing some pretty complicated stuff and getting some really great sounds over the chords during his sheets of sound era. he was every bit an innovator. i never felt like trane was just playing a lot of notes for the sake of playing a lot of notes (now, dave liebman,...)

brecker was undoubtedly a monster as well, but to be honest, i find some of those early funk tracks just as irritating as you find trane's free stuff. different strokes for different folks.

**Jazzaluk** · 12-10-2007, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzarian

Yesterday's wankers seem to be given hero status today.

Geez...I wonder what Mr Brecker thought of Coltrane... it seems that he was the primary reason for picking up the tenor sax.

Brecker was an incredible player and inovator in his own right, but he stood on the back of giants who exposed the possibilites of the sax and jazz.

From Brecker's website...
Born into a musical household in 1949, Michael Brecker's father--a lawyer and jazz pianist--played jazz on the record player for his young sons and took Michael and older brother Randy to see Miles Davis, Thelonious Monk and Duke Ellington perform live. While Randy took up trumpet, Michael launched his studies on clarinet and then alto sax. Moved by the genius of John Coltrane, Brecker switched to tenor sax in high school. After studying at the University of Indiana, as did his brother, Brecker moved to New York City, landing work with several bands before co-founding the pioneering jazz-rock group Dreams in 1970. Three years later, Brecker joined his brother in the frontline of pianist/composer Horace Silver's quintet. The following year, the siblings branched off to form the Brecker Brothers--one of the most innovative and successful jazz-funk fusion bands of the decade.

Jazzarian · 12-10-2007, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

well, some of those metallica solos are quite "memorable" and they fit the song they're in...it's context.

trane was blowing some pretty complicated stuff and getting some really great sounds over the chords during his sheets of sound era. he was every bit an innovator. i never felt like trane was just playing a lot of notes for the sake of playing a lot of notes (now, dave liebman,...)

brecker was undoubtedly a monster as well, but to be honest, i find some of those early funk tracks just as irritating as you find trane's free stuff. different strokes for different folks.

Brecker's solo on "Funky Sea, Funky Dew" circa 1978 was about as fine a pentatonic based sax solo as you'll ever hear.

Of course, Brecker played straight ahead jazz every bit as much as the funky stuff.

I do feel Coltrane was wanking, quite often. He had no idea where he was going in many of his solos. Often times, they were dead ends. Sometimes they were just plain awful. Need an example? Coltrane's soprano sax solo on "My Favorite Things". Good thing he had McCoy Tyner to rescue to the song.

As a guitarist, I'm about as fast a picker as you'll ever hear. I don't use my powers to wank however. My goal isn't to entertain Metallica fans with brainless speed crap.

Jazzarian · 12-10-2007, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzaluk

Geez...I wonder what Mr Brecker thought of Coltrane... it seems that he was the primary reason for picking up the tenor sax.

Brecker was an incredible player and inovator in his own right, but he stood on the back of giants who exposed the possibilites of the sax and jazz.

From Brecker's website...
Born into a musical household in 1949, Michael Brecker's father--a lawyer and jazz pianist--played jazz on the record player for his young sons and took Michael and older brother Randy to see Miles Davis, Thelonious Monk and Duke Ellington perform live. While Randy took up trumpet, Michael launched his studies on clarinet and then alto sax. Moved by the genius of John Coltrane, Brecker switched to tenor sax in high school. After studying at the University of Indiana, as did his brother, Brecker moved to New York City, landing work with several bands before co-founding the pioneering jazz-rock group Dreams in 1970. Three years later, Brecker joined his brother in the frontline of pianist/composer Horace Silver's quintet. The following year, the siblings branched off to form the Brecker Brothers--one of the most innovative and successful jazz-funk fusion bands of the decade.

Sorry, the pupil put the teacher out to pasture, and did it far more musically.

Jazzarian · 12-10-2007, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzaluk

Geez...I wonder what Mr Brecker thought of Coltrane... it seems that he was the primary reason for picking up the tenor sax.

Brecker was an incredible player and inovator in his own right, but he stood on the back of giants who exposed the possibilites of the sax and jazz.

From Brecker's website...
Born into a musical household in 1949, Michael Brecker's father--a lawyer and jazz pianist--played jazz on the record player for his young sons and took Michael and older brother Randy to see Miles Davis, Thelonious Monk and Duke Ellington perform live. While Randy took up trumpet, Michael launched his studies on clarinet and then alto sax. Moved by the genius of John Coltrane, Brecker switched to tenor sax in high school. After studying at the University of Indiana, as did his brother, Brecker moved to New York City, landing work with several bands before co-founding the pioneering jazz-rock group Dreams in 1970. Three years later, Brecker joined his brother in the frontline of pianist/composer Horace Silver's quintet. The following year, the siblings branched off to form the Brecker Brothers--one of the most innovative and successful jazz-funk fusion bands of the decade.

Actually, Mike Brecker's first instrument was ......... drums. No Coltrane influence there.

**MichaelJohnson@noirmusic.** · 12-17-2007, 02:16 PM

Hey guys,

This is sort of a controversial issue for a first time poster. Still as a guitarist, turned horn player, turned guitarist I thought I'd chime in. To everyone his is a huge Coltrane buff, more power to you, I can't make myself love Coltrane, believe me I have tried. You get a lot of attitude being a horn player who doesn't "get" Coltrane. Here is why...

He became Avant Garde and that is way not my scene. Just the idea that the audience has to study or "come to the music" is ridiculous to me. Asking them to stretch a bit is fine but you are making the music to talk to the audience. Deliberately speaking in Yiddish to a group of English speakers is just silly. My first little phrase might make you go "Wait what?" but after I play it a bit more the people should be able say "Oh I see...yeah man...cool"

Also the things that characterize Coltrane as a musician, for me, are not only the ubber fast, super-speed thing, culminating in the "Sheets of sound" phase but also that he never really seemed to "outgrow" the young saxophone players "more open mouthpiece" and "Harder reed" fixation. I've seen his pieces and he was playing 5 reeds (the hardest) on at times Ottolink Custom 10*. Most players play a 7-7* with a 2 or maybe 3 reed. 5 reeds are pretty uncommon and are generally more of a classical deal, even then on a very close 4*-5 piece. I don't see this as a sign of great chops. Yes it is true that many horn players would struggle even blowin' through his setups but being able to do something doesn't mean you should. If he had backed off to a more manageable setup his tone would have been more flexible, more "musical" if you will and much more expressive.

Now I know the above is bad enough from the perspective of Coltrane fans so this is where I get into deep, hot, water. I personally have always wondered if he didn't have a touch of OCD. Think about it....had to use the hardest reeds he could find, the most open mouthpiece someone could make, he obsessed on finding only the perfect reed, he'd buy a 10 box's and keep 3 (out of 30) reeds. (To give you an idea I was pretty finicky and not a master at reed re-shaping and I could get 25-27 reed out of 30 to be usable and maybe 10-12 performance quality...) Also there is the constant need, or addiction to practicing. He would play, then leave the stage for his band mates solos and go play scales in the bathroom. Now beyond the dis factor of having your horn player wonder off during your solo, what does it say about someone that they can't stop playing? Was that dedication or had he crossed the line into serious obsession or addiction? I know horn players romanticize it a lot but to me it seems kinda freakish...

**mr. beaumont** · 12-17-2007, 02:55 PM

well, john obviously had an addictive personality. some folks are more "predisposed" to addiction.

'trane's definitely not my favorite tenor man (that would go to booker ervin) but i do think part of his eccentricities (sp?) lead to him having a very recognizable voice on the instrument.

**gravitas** · 12-17-2007, 05:27 PM

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from Mike. Some of his more avant garde stuff seems a bit obtuse to me too. As for the tone question, he did have some very specific qualifications. I've read in a few interviews where he was questioned about his sound and he described the tone he was going for, and he did allow for some of the airier, pitchier malfeasances. It's similar to the Ornette Coleman thing: he wants an imperfect sound so he can emulate the human voice more realistically. And I love a vocal tone like he's got. However, As a horn player myself, I would never want to play in a Coltrane (or Coleman, for that matter) led horn section.