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I have see a few other threads concerning method books and approaches. I have just recently downloaded Pat Martinos "Creative Force" material and have started looking through it. My reference point is that I am a relative beginner to jazz guitar, and unfortunately never had any music theory training earlier on, and I have acquired a library of reference material on the subject to try to help me orient myself.
What I hope to get is some response as to how others feel Pat has been able to organize his approach and make it make sense. My humble impression is (through the first few pages) that it well organized, ie and he makes very good sense of chord construction and understanding the principles of construction, as opposed to memorisation. I assume this branches out in scales and fretboard organization but havent gotten that far yet. The approach seems pretty good to me, does anyone else have it? and have an opinion to share?
I think probably, if he keeps practicing what he preaches, that boy might just make something of himself!
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11-04-2010 02:08 PM
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I can't remember which Martino video I saw, but I will say that I found some of his stuff pompous and overblown. He was using bizarre/invented terminology that only clouded the information. I had to watch it a couple times to figure out that he was simply reinventing the wheel and putting his own terminology.
But then one could say that every method is reinventing the wheel. All the information is out there and they are just repackaging it into a marketable form.
That being said, I remember many good things in the video. Most of it (if not all) were old concepts that he was just rehashing and acting like he invented it (like many teachers do), but it was still good stuff. His approach is as valid as anyone else's and will yield a certain sound. I would not advice using it as your only approach, but it can be an excellent color on your palette. And if you like Martino's playing (I'll have to admit that I'm not a huge fan of his modern stuff) then you should definitely dig deep into his method. His approach seemed unnecessarily Byzantine to me, but if it sings to you, then go for it. Just realize that if you want to become a fully mature player, you'll eventually have to study other approaches as well. If I can paraphrase Jim Hall, borrowing from one player is stealing, borrowing from several is research. But if you are a "relative beginner to jazz guitar" then it is completely reasonable to start with one person that you really like, I know that that's what I did when I was starting out. Martino is as good as anyplace to start.
Have fun,
Kevin
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I'd look at triads and understand them before moving on to the Harmonized seventh scale (jazz theory).
Originally Posted by 0zoro
I think everybodie's self-taught, at least inn the way we apprehend how music theory applies to the neck of the guitar.
At some point a teacher can be a great bridge.
Pat Martino is self-taught and developed his own way of apprehending harmonic systems in a way he could negotiate what he needed to do to survive in his world (Philly jazz scene in the sixties). And it worked for him.
Wes Montgomery also developed a way to get around too, and it worked to help him survive in Indianapolis (and beyond).
Today's upcoming jazz guitarists are competing with Berklee students, North Texas State, students, etc etc.
If now is your time to put in the work towards as much mastery on the instrument as you can muster in the time allotted, I'd explore several methods before committing all the work in one direction (like Martino's).
A teacher showed me the harmonized seventh scale and the associated modes in a practical way that I still use to this day (and it sounds like it). So now I am going back and taking another look at Charlie Christian, and Charlie Parker's thought, etc.
It's endless. A lifelong pursuit.
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I learned traditional theory first, and then investigated Martino's stuff.
The difference is basically/roughly this:
In traditional jazz improvisation theory you to improvise over chords, and threating every chord with the right "device" (scales/arpeggios). For instance play dorian over m7-chords, mixolydian or super locrian over dom7-chords, and lydian or ionian over maj7-chords.
This approach is not really guitar-friendly, and requires a lot a work: learning lots of scales and arpeggios that fit to the various chords and chord progressions over which you're going to solo.
Martino's approach is built on the symmetry you'll find on the fretboard. For instance chords are build from their form, and altering one finger or two (diminished parental form, augmented parental form). It's quite easy to understand.
Martino's soloing approach is to use only the minor scales (mostly dorian). This way you only need to learn one type of fingerings, "scales", licks, etc., but a million ways to apply them.
For instance over a ii-V-I in C you could convert the following chords to minor:
Dm7 = D minor, D dorian
G7 = D minor (dom7-chords are raised a fifth) or imply an altered G7 by playing Ab minor.
Cmaj7 = Am7 (the relative minor of C)
So instead of switching between different "scales" over a ii-V-I (dorian, super locrian, ionian) you just play minor over the chord progression.
In other words: convert to minor.
I guess you can say in a bombastic way that
- traditional jazz improvisation shows you a million ways (lots of scales) to play against few things (most jazz tunes contain ii-V's).
- Martino's approach shows you a few ways (minor) to use in a million ways.
Of course it is more demanding than this, but it gives the perspective.
My experience has been good. I've learned to apply his diminished parental forms, and I think it's the easiest way for a guitarist to learn LOTS of chords and smooth voice leading. The fretboard really opens itself to you.
I'm still in the process of learning to play minor over everything. But I've begun to reap the advantages (only 1 scale-approach needs to be learned, but there's lots of memorization involved.... how to convert different chord-types on the spot to minor).
I think the biggest disadvantage to Martino's approach is that you can't communicate ideas, chords, etc. to other musicians unless you know traditional theory and terms. But if you got the basics down, then dig in.
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As far as Pat Martino's "convert to minor" approach to improvising goes, is it really guitar-centric? I imagined saying what you wrote there to a sax player and it still made sense.
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His chord-system is very visual.... I can imagine it more guitar-friendly. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Thank you all for the views. There is so much to learn and so many ways to learn it, and at my age, full time job etc. None the less this is the most stimulating endeavour Ive begun since I can remember. I do have a guitar teacher, who is very knowledgable and pedagogical, we are on the same wave length. Our greatest problem is my slow learning curve concerning theory (no thats my problem in fact), same goes for my fingers. We meet about every 2 to 4 weeks, between time I find myself full of questions, or difficulties met, that seek resolution. Thus the longing for a systematic approach as a reference book. The Jazz Theory book is over my head (I have it) as I dont read, nor have a key board. I find theory abstract enough in itself, so Im looking for something (or some things) I can use as reference material, that is directly guitar applicable. I appreciate the time you´ve spent in this reply, and in general for the time, energy and involvement you all put down on the site. 0zoro
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Does he divide the comping and the single line stuff? Originally Posted by C.A.JO.
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Hi BDLH!
I believe so, to be honest Im not sure how the mix is presented. I became so overwhelmed with the initial presentation, parental chord forms and their derivates I backed off. Thus the post where I ask for guidance. I know this is a worthless reply to a good question................ Sorry
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I need to look at Pat Martino's online stuff again. I found it a bit confusing, There were diagrams that seemed more like mandalas than musical ideas, but then my head was already spinning.
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Yes the Mandala impression was right on. I found them quite confusing infact. The pdf s are available, though I find them suboptimal as a method of information spreading, I prefer books, but again I am hesitant with Pat´s approach. On the other hand I have been listening to his version of Wes Road Song (never heard Wes do it) and his playing floored me. Ive even seen a Youtube version, young player did a condensed Pat version very well IMHO, and I can follow or figue it out. That is the most single thing that started my looking at Pats approach.
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I downloaded it in march this year...it really help me in many ways...also,i think he is one of the best player dis days
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Thanks Jeff, Im listening right now. Great version!
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- Get Pat Martino"s book "Linear Expressions",it will make the darkness a little more visible.
His approach "Converting to minor" and Jimmy Bruno"s Six Essential Shapes
are the only logical expressions I"ve found on guitar improvisation
(I"m lost when I have to think chord/scale relationship on a tune where the chords change every two beats per measure).
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I have the Creative Force DVDs, but haven't dug into them that much. I personally don't find the chord construction stuff that valuable since I can construct chords pretty easily on the fretboard simply from my courses in music theory (that I took ages ago in a different life).
I am, however, making a concerted effort (since about last week) to go through Pat's Linear Expressions book. In fact, I've just memorized the 5 activities (lines) and am moving towards the vertical/horizontal integration. I'm keeping a blog to mark my progress/frustrations because I haven't seen a lot of extended accounts online concerning how this material actually proves useful to folks. Here's the blog FWIW: Convert to Minor
So far, the effect of learning Pat's lines (whether the stuff in the creative force DVDs or Linear Expressions) has been this: his lines and manner of note choice/organization is bleeding over into my ordinary approach. I suspect that happens when you learn anyone's lines, however.
Also, FWIW, and in part because I tune in 4ths, I look at the fretboard a wee bit differently than I used to when I used standard tuning. As a consequence, I tend to see octaves and the intervals between them in a somewhat gestalt manner, as opposed to seeing traditional scale patterns. The relevance here is that I personally haven't _yet_ found a need to "convert to minor" in order to simplify playing over chord progressions, because the way I see the fretboard at present makes playing over changes fairly accessible.
At the end of the day I suspect that investigating his approach is worth it, if only to see whether it works for you or not. There are an infinite number of ways to approach music, some better and some worse. But if this end up working for you, all the better! I suspect you'll know in 2 months or less whether it's helping, and if not, you can move to a different system.
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JB I will follow your progress with great interest!
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Hi JB I recognize your description of starting numerous method books and not really getting through them. Hear, hear! I understand things are hard going, and that the genius of the method hasnt yet come into focus. Keep pushing and let the reports flood in, I am following with interest. 0zoro
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