I hear Lester Young in a way that I've never heard before.

[brent.h]

Yeah the 5s thing is actually much more present in swing era stuff then you might think. Django uses them in his solo on Sweet Sue for example…

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

0:00-6:00

So, if I have 4 crotchets subdivided in 16 semiquavers

One-ka-di-mi, Two-ka-di-mi, Three-ka-di-mi, Four-ka-di-mi

and then group the semiquavers into 3s, I'll have

One-ka-di-mi, Two-ka-di-mi, Three-ka-di-mi, Four-ka-di-mi
One-ka-di-mi, Two-ka-di-mi, Three-ka-di-mi, Four-ka-di-mi
One-ka-di-mi, Two-ka-di-mi, Three-ka-di-mi, Four-ka-di-mi

I feel the above as 2 bars of 8 crotchets subdivided into 16 quavers

1-&-2-&, 3-&-4-&, 1-&-2-&, 3-&-4-&
1-&-2-&, 3-&-4-&, 1-&-2-&, 3-&-4-&
1-&-2-&, 3-&-4-&, 1-&-2-&, 3-&-4-&

To my ears, this is grouping/accenting is what I call 'Consecutive Charlestons'

Bar 1: 1, 2&, 4
Bar 2: 1&, 3, 4&
Bar 3: 2, 3&

Lol I learnt how important this rhythm is from the Hot Fives/Sevens.

But before playing jazz, I heard it first in trance and house music. This has something similar:

------------------------------

9:27, 10:18

lol why didnt i think of this before... i already have these in my fingers, i can already do them

[Christian Miller]

0:00-6:00

So, if I have 4 crotchets subdivided in 16 semiquavers

One-ka-di-mi, Two-ka-di-mi, Three-ka-di-mi, Four-ka-di-mi

and then group the semiquavers into 3s, I'll have

One-ka-di-mi, Two-ka-di-mi, Three-ka-di-mi, Four-ka-di-mi
One-ka-di-mi, Two-ka-di-mi, Three-ka-di-mi, Four-ka-di-mi
One-ka-di-mi, Two-ka-di-mi, Three-ka-di-mi, Four-ka-di-mi

I feel the above as 2 bars of 8 crotchets subdivided into 16 quavers

1-&-2-&, 3-&-4-&, 1-&-2-&, 3-&-4-&
1-&-2-&, 3-&-4-&, 1-&-2-&, 3-&-4-&
1-&-2-&, 3-&-4-&, 1-&-2-&, 3-&-4-&

To my ears, this is grouping/accenting is what I call 'Consecutive Charlestons'

Bar 1: 1, 2&, 4
Bar 2: 1&, 3, 4&
Bar 3: 2, 3&

Lol I learnt how important this rhythm is from the Hot Fives/Sevens.

But before playing jazz, I heard it first in trance and house music. This has something similar:

------------------------------

9:27, 10:18

lol why didnt i think of this before... i already have these in my fingers, i can already do them

No, we don't do it that way.

Count the beat on the hands. This is the Taala, which is roughly equivalent to the Western concept of metre or time signature.

For jazz, I use a half version of Adi Talam (which is eight count) that goes

1 clap
2 little finger against palm
3 third finger against palm
4 second finger against palm

Make each of these sharp and positive.

This is by far the most useful thing I picked up from Konnakol (so far). Not the spoken syllables (which can be modified).

The important thing is physicalise the counting of the beat so you don't lose your sense of the one and the physical relation of the spoken rhythm and the beat.

Once you've physicalised that, we go in 16th note subdivision

Takadimi takajono (piccadilly jinglebelly, what ever you like)

Lock the first syllable securely with the beat.

Now we use a grouping of three. We say
takida

To lock in with the beat we accent the syllable that goes with the beat
TA ki da ta KI da ta ki DA ta ki da TA
see how it phases?

then when are comfortable we accent the Ta, and then we ghost the other syllables.

The same for the 5
which he could do Ta di go na ton, Ta di go ta ton, or Ta ka Ta ki da, (University, Scientology or whatever suits best.)

When doing this on the guitar I speak the Taala. For 4/4, "ta ka di mi" is fine.

[brent.h]

No, we don't do it that way.

Count the beat on the hands. This is the Taala, which is roughly equivalent to the Western concept of metre or time signature.

For jazz, I use a half version of Adi Talam (which is eight count) that goes

1 clap
2 little finger against palm
3 third finger against palm
4 second finger against palm

Make each of these sharp and positive.

This is by far the most useful thing I picked up from Konnakol (so far). Not the spoken syllables (which can be modified).

The important thing is physicalise the counting of the beat so you don't lose your sense of the one and the physical relation of the spoken rhythm and the beat.

Once you've physicalised that, we go in 16th note subdivision

Takadimi takajono (piccadilly jinglebelly, what ever you like)

Lock the first syllable securely with the beat.

Now we use a grouping of three. We say
takida

To lock in with the beat we accent the syllable that goes with the beat
TA ki da ta KI da ta ki DA ta ki da TA
see how it phases?

then when are comfortable we accent the Ta, and then we ghost the other syllables.

The same for the 5
which he could do Ta di go na ton, Ta di go ta ton, or Ta ka Ta ki da, (University, Scientology or whatever suits best.)

When doing this on the guitar I speak the Taala. For 4/4, "ta ka di mi" is fine.

Will take a little getting used to the clapping. When counting, I usually stomp my right heel on 1 and 3, and slap rhythms quite hard on my chest like a gorilla when I'm trying to feel or figure out a rhythm. I physicalise rhythms a bit more violently lol cos I'm quite dumb at these things.

[Christian Miller]

Will take a little getting used to the clapping. When counting, I usually stomp my right heel on 1 and 3, and slap rhythms quite hard on my chest like a gorilla when I'm trying to feel or figure out a rhythm. I physicalise rhythms a bit more violently lol cos I'm quite dumb at these things.

What I like about the Konnakol way of doing it is that it clearly indicates what beat you are on. This is incredibly useful once you get into the odd time stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AllanAllen]

Is this that crazy singing you did in the Footprints video?

[Christian Miller]

Is this that crazy singing you did in the Footprints video?

Maybe? No idea tbh. It’s been yonks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[brent.h]

More asymmetrical playing

Raney talks about the asymmetry in Bird's playing.

[AllanAllen]

More asymmetrical playing

That long line at 1:00 - 1:12, great stuff, like falling up the stairs.

[PMB]

That long line at 1:00 - 1:12, great stuff, like falling up the stairs.

That's a perfect example of Hal Galper's 'Forward Motion' principle. Notice how the majority of high points in each phrase occur on the '+' of 1 with accents on the offbeats and slurring from weak to strong. In other words, lines resolve rather than begin on the primary beat. This is a hugely important point. We so often write phrases from the 1st beat for the sake of notational convenience but it doesn't reflect the way Lester Young and all the great bop musicians played.

[AllanAllen]

I have that book!

I noticed this, but differently. I was working on Blues for Alice and thought it was odd how it starts on 1, Parker usually starts on 2 or maybe a lead in on the & of 1.

I didn’t have any insight on it like you just explained. Thanks

[GuyBoden]

That's a perfect example of Hal Galper's 'Forward Motion' principle. Notice how the majority of high points in each phrase occur on the '+' of 1 with accents on the offbeats and slurring from weak to strong. In other words, lines resolve rather than begin on the primary beat. This is a hugely important point. We so often write phrases from the 1st beat for the sake of notational convenience but it doesn't reflect the way Lester Young and all the great bop musicians played.

Yes, I find it best to learn or create Jazz phrases starting on the "+" of beats.

In my opinion, this is very, very, very important for Jazz phrasing.

[Christian Miller]

A lot of it is clave

Most bird is in 2-3 clave


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sully75]

One Ka Di Mi
Two Ka Di Mi
is genius and kinda funny

[PMB]

I have that book!

I noticed this, but differently. I was working on Blues for Alice and thought it was odd how it starts on 1, Parker usually starts on 2 or maybe a lead in on the & of 1.

I didn’t have any insight on it like you just explained. Thanks

Yes, it's about where the line starts but more importantly where the phrase begins. That's the big takeaway from Galper's book.

Galper cites Albert Schweitzer on Bach as a precursor to this way of phrasing in jazz: "If we follow the principle indicated by Bach's manner of writing his phrases, we see that he usually conceives four consecutive notes as grouped in such a way that the first is detached from the others by an imperceptible break and belongs rather to the previous group than to the one that follows". Thus, the "one' of the bar isn't the first but last beat of the bar.

The opening bars of the section beginning at 1'00" in the Jimmy Raney clip illustrate exactly what's expressed by this statement. Notice too that all the slurs and slides are from weak to strong beats (and that string changes occur on the '+' of 4 and not the 1):