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Has anyone heard this disc?
I've been listening to it lately, and although I haven't listened to the three part symphonic suites that open the disc, I have been listening to the four standards he does in tribute to four pianists.
Two things strike me when listening to these four tracks:
1. His solos take me absolutely NOWHERE. Don't get me wrong, I've always been a fan of his, but his phrasing doesn't sit well on standard tunes, he doesn't use themes or ides, just seems to blaze through the changes with his trademark pick-every-note style attack. He doesn't swing at all.
2. While the tunes he plays are based on pianists' interpretations of the standards, he actually composed the harmonic parts for multiple guitars. In other words, he bases "Stella's" changes off of Herbie Hancock's reharmonization, and then writes out specific voicings and rhythms for the other guitars to play. These are fixed parts, not spontaneous comping. This made me feel that without communication between an actual comper, improv'ing harmonic rhythms and fills, there is nothing but "dead dialogue," leading McLaughlin to feed off of no one when he solos. Not only that, but he doesn't seem to feed off of the fixed harmony when he solos, he just blazes away.
This disc is classified as "beyond jazz" genre. Can someone please explain why this record is good?
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06-18-2010 11:07 AM
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JM is one of my favorites. However his music transcended 'standards' years ago. His blending of several styles of music over the decades has brought him to a "different place". IMHO
The problem is that when he now plays a standard he is no longer "conversant" in that idiom.
His Bill Evans tribute LP is well done. He arranged a bunch of BE tunes for guitar ensemble. I guess he thought he should do it again with the 4 standards on this disc.
As far as swinging, theres a you tube of him on the Tonight Show with the DOc Sevrenson band just tearing up Cherokee. Of cousre that was ages ago.
My favorites by him though are still the first two Mahavishnu albums. Inner Mounting Flame and Birds of Fire. Dance of Maya is a great tune and Lotus on Irish Streams makes a great CM.
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You got me curious: I love John in the Mahavishnu Orchestra, and Shakti, but straight ahead stuff, well... I found this on youtube:
The arrangement: all guitars. It's a cute idea, but more as a novelty. As a guitar player I feel guilty saying that. And I feel the lack of spontaneity
The lead guitar: you can spot John's tone in a few notes. I hate to sound like a traditionalist -- throw a wet blanket over the amp, etc... -- but I'm not digging the flat top sound here. And with his pick-every-note flurry of notes sound, you know it's him. It's hard to listen to the music, I keep thinking "John McLaughlin" first, instead of the music first, if you know what I mean.
EDIT: and he does sound like he's following the harmony on this track, in his solo!Last edited by BigDaddyLoveHandles; 06-18-2010 at 11:38 AM.
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BDLH,
His solo version of this tune where he drops the E string down to A below the fifth is a better version. I forget what album it's from. I have a transcription of it somewhere.
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Another track, this time on nylon strings:
I'm afraid this one only rates a "meh" from me. Inoffensive.
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Oh, I've seen that Chrokee clip countless times. I LOVE his Mahavishnu and Shakti stuff. Great. But my thing is with his standards.
Originally Posted by JohnW400
I think the idea of an ensemble without conversation strikes me dull. Now I won't lie, if I could get my elementary ensemble to play that arrangement, it'd be cool (joking) Maybe if he told the players to mind the framework, but have a small liberty and feed off each other, then it would be interesting.
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I bought that album and wasn't much of a fan. My favorite stuff from him is like Friday Night in San Fransico with Al Dimeola and Paco Delucia. To me Mclaughlin is a fusion player. He has chops galore, but like you said, he doesn't really swing. If I wanted to hear some really trippy stuff, id listen to him, but if I wanted to hear Stella or Cherokee I'd probably listen to Joe Pass.
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not to be rude but this topic has been covered before.
John McLaughlin is not a swing or be-bop musician. he is not trying to sound like Charlie Christian or Charlie Parker.
he plays in the vein that Miles Davis and John Coltrane established after the Kind of Blue album (they call it modal). and then Miles' "Directions in Music" influences (i.e. funk influenced jazz played on electric instruments. this was termed Jazz/Rock by the jazz police and it later became known as Fusion).
he played on over 10 albums with Miles, formed his own ground breaking fusion band, deeply explored Indian improvisational music with great verve, wrote two concertos for gutar and orchestra, played some flamenco and spanish influenced acoustic guitar music with Paco De Lucia, Larry Coryell and Al DiMeola, experimented with guitar synthesizers, formed a power trio with Joey De Francesco and Elvin Jones (replaced by Dennis Chambers), and has now returned to his jazz/rock roots.
the 68 year old McLaughlin is not resting on his laurels. he is playing with great innovative spirit and masterful expression at this time. he plays angular lines like nobody else and seems to have limitless ability to express a range of moods from mellow to incendiary to downright explosive. he continues to play with the unmistakable command of a true master. if you really want to hear him in his element buy his latest CD to To The One. cuts 1,2 and 5 are exemplary. also check out After The Rain for some mind blowing trio playing in the 60s Coltrane tradition.
a parting shot:
Last edited by fumblefingers; 06-19-2010 at 11:30 AM.
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+1 to fumblefingers
And, if he wanted to play traditional jazz swing, do you think he couldn't? Of course he could...
Come-on, he's a jazz giant.
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Once again, I'm WELL AWARE of his playing, and have been a fan of his since I was in mny late teens. I'm not saying he can't swing, or asking why he isn't swingin on this record, I'm just stating that to me, the fixed harmonic parts with his solos on the four standars he plays on the disc strike my as odd, and particularly don't move me. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
I know good and well what his sound is, and that he is in no way a traditionalist. This thread wasn't intended for saying that McLaughlin can't play standards, or with a swing feel, it was intended to as if I am alone in these observations
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ok, well no maybe you aren't alone.
Johhny Mac has taken a hell of a lot of artistic risks. he has ventured way, way outside the safe zone of being a mere jazz geetar picker. some of the material has worked better than some of the other. but as they say - nothing ventured, nothing gained.
so, as with anyone, go for his best stuff and enjoy it.Last edited by fumblefingers; 06-19-2010 at 02:00 PM.
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I'm pretty sure the previous track was also nylon string. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
And that I liked it.
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Mglaughlin is a jazz EXPLORER. He takes jazz and uses it to EXPLORE various avenues....I wouldn't even call him a jazz guitarist as that implies some dude with a big thumb and a big box playing standards.....He is o.k. with the "fusion" label, so I am too....John McGlaughlin is a jazz fusion guitar player.
And that means he is always going to try something new.....
And I agree that he missed the mark on some of the stuff on Thieves and Poets.
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Other than Wes and Farlow, who else has a big thumb? I don't think "big thmb" when I think traditional players Originally Posted by 3shiftgtr
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Yeah, I have to give Thieves and Poets one Big Thumb's down. Originally Posted by 3shiftgtr
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I'm just now listening to the first three track off the record-which are a suite, made of three movements. It's a bit easier and more pleasurable to listen to, but there are times plays his-mile-a-minute lines, whether improved or composed. This led me to realize he doesn't use a lot devices like theme-variation, melodic conformation ect. His older stuff features some of this, but not a lot.
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It's a label based on a stereotype. And as is the case with stereotypes, they are not at all complete in their truth..... Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65
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what are your impressions of his latest CD? Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65
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there is an out of print "my goals beyond" album (on douglas i think) solo acoustic (ovation-steel strings)
john plays a version of "good-buy pork pie hat" that is expressive as any version i have heard
i would love to have a copy of that in a cd...that dosent cost 100+
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I have it on vinyl and will be recording it to my hard drive shortly. USB turntables are great. Saved me a bunch already.
FYI I checked amazon and they have it for 16.98Last edited by JohnW400; 10-25-2010 at 04:18 PM.
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I've always dug JM, but never considered him a jazz player. What's wrong with not being a jazz player... I don't believe jazz has ever been the right medium for his expression. He always had a different feel. Listen to his blues playing... I have always checked out his shows... Dig his new material and hope he continues to express his views of anything musical... Best Reg
I first hear of JM through Brian Auger, a British B-3 player, back in the late 60's.
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I sort of agree - ish! Originally Posted by Reg
There are a number of albums of JM's that I would rather not listen to.
JM 's new album "To the one" is a good example of his improvisation style.
The trouble is that I do have a problem with the idea of defining what Jazz is.
Is David Bailey jazz? Jan Gabarek? Esbjörn Svensson? Bill Frisell? Ralph Towner? Miroslav Vitous? David Torn?
I always thought that Jazz was about improvisation and not just about playing standards - essential though that may be for building your musical knowledge.
Surely it is the fusion of different musical idioms that gives Jazz energy. Rather than being stuck in a musical and cultural cul de sac.
Perhaps the name Jazz is a problem. Maybe we should just use another description? The trouble is that I like the idea of a big tent that accepts a wide range of approaches.
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Big Tent for me, too! I like twangy Western Swing and Euro-ECM.
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yup Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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